Lets talk about the soldiers.

[DOMS]

What do you do?

You realize that you're not man enough to ever have children, so you let someone else handle it because it's not your problem?

 

[Witmaster]

You realize that you're not man enough to ever have children, so you let someone else handle it because it's not your problem?

 

[Decker]

Just because you'd like to believe so, doesn't make it so. He only really complied just as we were about to attack. To little, to late.

Too little and too late to whom? Certainly not to the UN.

"Resolution 1441 declares that Iraq ???remains in material breach??? of past resolutions but explains that the council had decided to ???afford Iraq???a final opportunity to comply with its disarmament obligations.??? "

Compliance is compliance even if it is not timely. The alternative of rushing into war got us the mess we are in presently.
http://www.nytimes.com/packages/html/international/20021117_iraq_HISTORY/for_iraq_HISTORY_03.html
http://www.armscontrol.org/act/2002_12/iraq_dec02.asp

We didn't need anyone's approval to attack. After we went to war, it was always our right to finish it.

Not true. The first war and the latest war were mandated by the UN. The US was the main player, but it was still legally subordinate to the grant of authority extended by the UN.

Also, they inspectors couldn't do the job even after a decade. 10 years is long enough.

How do you figure? The Inspectors came to the conclusion that there were no WMDs in Iraq.

Who was right? GW Bush or the Weapons Inspectors. You know the answer.

By the standard of the good ol' days, it is. Personally, I don't agree with the pansy ideology that we have to help rebuild after we beat the shit out of an enemy. We should simply show up, destroy as much as we need to (or want to), smoke 'em if you got 'em, and then go home......

We helped Germany rebuild after WWII. It makes longterm sense to help your enemy rebuild and reacclimate to being an ally rather than an enemy.

 

[DOMS]

Too little and too late to whom? Certainly not to the UN.

The UN is a joke. They didn't think that a decade was enough time.

Compliance is compliance even if it is not timely.

Saddam only complied in so much as he was forced to with physical attacks. He never fully complied. He only promised to after the US geared up to finish the war.

Not true. The first war and the latest war were mandated by the UN. The US was the main player, but it was still legally subordinate to the grant of authority extended by the UN.

The UN didn't mandate crap. They pretend that they do, but such is not the case. They had no way to stop Iraq and called in the only country that would have bothered to do so.

Also, there was only on war. Not two, just one. They were two engagements of one war. After the US was called in to fight the war, they were the ones that could decide how it should end. The US isn't a military force to be used by the UN. They are a sovereign country that decided to fight. After they were called in, it wasn't the UN's choice what would happen. They couldn't command, they could ask.

How do you figure? The Inspectors came to the conclusion that there were no WMDs in Iraq.

Who was right? GW Bush or the Weapons Inspectors. You know the answer.

Bullshit. Up until Bush was ready to finish the war, they were saying that they didn't know if he had them.

Besides (God, I'm going to enjoy this): If they knew that Iraq didn't have any WMDs, then why did they need more time?

We helped Germany rebuild after WWII. It makes longterm sense to help your enemy rebuild and reacclimate to being an ally rather than an enemy.

German is a western country. The only non-western country that we've ever helped that made any difference was Japan. The rest of the world simply will not benefit long-term from such an action.

I mean, where's the great reconstruction of Vietnam? Korea?

 

[Decker]

....Saddam only complied in so much as he was forced to with physical attacks. He never fully complied. He only promised to after the US geared up to finish the war.

I think you are correct in this statement. The sabre rattling helped. But Bush went too far and broke the law.

The UN didn't mandate crap. They pretend that they do, but such is not the case. They had no way to stop Iraq and called in the only country that would have bothered to do so.

The UN did provide the authority to go to attack Iraq. That's an incontrovertible fact.

Also, there was only on war. Not two, just one. They were two engagements of one war. After the US was called in to fight the war, they were the ones that could decide how it should end. The US isn't a military force to be used by the UN. They are a sovereign country that decided to fight. After they were called in, it wasn't the UN's choice what would happen. They couldn't command, they could ask.

Technically there was no war at all b/c congress authorized no declaration of war. However, if we look at the War Powers Resolution of '73, the argument can be made that the president can attack countries only by consulting with Congress. The caveat is is that if Congress does not formally declare war within 90 days of the original authorization, the deal's off. How long have we been in Iraq?
(an aside, if the War Powers Resolution is ever addressed by the supreme court, any self-respecting original intent justice should find it to be unconstitutional)

The US is member of the UN. We chose to be there. Our sovereignty has nothing to do with our participation in that respect.

Bullshit. Up until Bush was ready to finish the war, they were saying that they didn't know if he had them.

Absolutely false. The weapons inspectors were finding no evidence of the alleged manufacture or maintenance of WMDs in any of the places they looked--they had free reign--and Bush, out of nowhere, said get out of Iraq, the US will bomb in 3 days. Sounds like Bush took matters into his own hands and misused his authority...again.

Read Blix's testimony: http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/01/27/sprj.irq.transcript.blix/

Read his latest pronouncements:
"If you sentence someone to death or you sentence someone to war, you'd better have some evidence," Blix tells NPR's Bob Edwards. "And we didn't feel there was evidence..."
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=1767468

Besides (God, I'm going to enjoy this): If they knew that Iraq didn't have any WMDs, then why did they need more time?

B/c attack was on the line. The WMD inspectors knew about the places they searched. Bush abruptly stopped the search opting for invasion instead. It was clear that the presence of WMDs did not mean a thing the GWB.

German is a western country. The only non-western country that we've ever helped that made any difference was Japan. The rest of the world simply will not benefit long-term from such an action.

I mean, where's the great reconstruction of Vietnam? Korea?

We didn't win those wars. We lost to Viet Nam and Korea ended like Viet Nam. The underlying principle of helping the vanquished is still the right thing to do.

 

[DOMS]

You must have written that in a test editor and pasted it into the response box because, when I hit "quote", there are no line breaks and there's no way in hell I'm going to clean it up.

Bush ended the war, which was our right the moment we went into combat.

Yeah, the UN "authorized" it the same way I'd authorize the police to save me during an attempt on my life.

Whether not the US formally declares war in an internal sense, is not the business of anyone outside of its borders. We told the UN that we'd go to war for them and, at the point, the control of the situation was no longer theirs.

Go check the dates when Blix (the political piece of shit that he is) made his statements. And that includes the rest of the inspectors and the UN. None of them made those claims until after the US went into the second battle. It was all after the fact.

"B/c attack was on the line."

I knew that you'd say this because it's the only chance you had for a rebuttal. But it's a crock. Show me one report from the UN prior to the US' declaration to finish the war that says that they knew that Saddam didn't have WMDs. You won't, because you can't. No such document exists. Nice try though...or not.

My point about rebuilding is that, if it's not a western country, it's a complete waste. There's no way in hell you can bring civility to a third-world nation.

 

[Decker]

I hate to say it, but what's a test editor? If you're referring to the Blix quote, I did cut and paste it from the link.

You're oversimplifying the 'goto war' line of reasoning. If Bush doesn't have adequate grounds for attacking Iraq legally, that is the basis of a war crimes charge. Preventive War is still a war crime. That's a major reason the UN's blessing was required. You may despise the UN but the legal infrastructure is there and we have to deal with it.

The UN may not know anything. However, the UN inspectors were finding no WMDs. In other words, your distinction is without merit. I showed you the Hans Blix testimony. If that is not going to persuade you of what they knew, I don't know what will. All the inspectors, to a man, found zero evidence of WMDS and that was directly contradicting Bush's reasons for invasion.

Your opinion of rebuilding 3rd world countries is unfortunate. I take it that you disagreed with Colin Powell's assesment of invading Iraq--"you break it, you bought it."

Have a great weekend DOMS. It's snowing/raining here in Milwaukee and I have to go pick up my wife from work. It never ends.

 

[DOMS]

I hate to say it, but what's a test editor? If you're referring to the Blix quote, I did cut and paste it from the link.

Hardy-har-har.

You're oversimplifying the 'goto war' line of reasoning.

I'm not. It is quite simple. The UN asked us to go to war. That's "asked", not commanded. The US agreed to. Once we did that, the war, and all decisions pertaining to it, were ours to make, not the UNs. Otherwise, where are the UN sanctions against the US? Huh?

The UN may not know anything. However, the UN inspectors were finding no WMDs.

It's funny how you can say this, seeing that they never had full access, and even complained that Saddam was giving them the run-around.

In other words, your distinction is without merit. I showed you the Hans Blix testimony.

And, pray tell, when was that testimony given? (You so deserve this emoticon).

Your opinion of rebuilding 3rd world countries is unfortunate. I take it that you disagreed with Colin Powell's assesment of invading Iraq--"you break it, you bought it."

I most certainly disagree with it. It was broken when we got there.

ave a great weekend DOMS. It's snowing/raining here in Milwaukee and I have to go pick up my wife from work. It never ends.

You too man! It's kinda nice here. It's in the 40s, but with a clear sky and no wind.

 

[ZECH]

HAHAHA!....................It was 80 here today!!!!!!!!!

 

[DOMS]

HAHAHA!....................It was 80 here today!!!!!!!!!

You suck.

 

[Witmaster]

HAHAHA!....................It was 80 here today!!!!!!!!!

We had that yesterday. Cold fron rolled through earlier. It's now hovering around in the 40's.

No matter. I'm still golfing tomorrow

 

[maniclion]

HAHAHA!....................It was 80 here today!!!!!!!!!

Damn thats freezing, we got down to 84 today, I had to turn off my AC in the car and roll down the windows....

 

[cman]

This is an excellent most, but it doesn't really belong in the other thread.
I agree with Decker a 100%, and I get the feeling that a lot of people were jumping his shit because they don't agree with his ideology.

So we should have just rolled over one more time, piss on the sailors on the cole heh? Who cares about 911, who cares about the stuff we have satalite photos of him smuggling in to syria. We should have let him finnish and start ww3 by bombing Israel, like he said he would. Put your head back in the sand, and blame bush. I heard on cnn that he sent katrina to New orleans. Then made all those degenerates get boob jobs with the govornment money.

 

[cman]

You must have written that in a test editor and pasted it into the response box because, when I hit "quote", there are no line breaks and there's no way in hell I'm going to clean it up.

Bush ended the war, which was our right the moment we went into combat.

Yeah, the UN "authorized" it the same way I'd authorize the police to save me during an attempt on my life.

Whether not the US formally declares war in an internal sense, is not the business of anyone outside of its borders. We told the UN that we'd go to war for them and, at the point, the control of the situation was no longer theirs.

Well said. Bush had the same info everyone else did. People sit here and armchair quarterback. I remember him telling congress if you are not in this for the long haul vote no. They found empty wmd mobile labs, im sure they had those and never intended on using them. The whole 911 was made possible by that pussy clinton, firing the 1200 operatives we had inside groups like alqueda. The terrorists want the dems in controle here, so who are they afraid of? when dems are in charge you can kill kill kill americans and they just say"lets talk about this in a civil manner." Bill put us in a ressesion and we were finally pulling out of it and cnn brainwashed america voted in a tax hiking bunch of pussies. If you remember the first q asked of bush while clinton was still in. "Are you upset that Pres clinton is handing you a country that has gone into a ressesion?"

 

[DOMS]

Well said. Bush had the same info everyone else did. People sit here and armchair quarterback. I remember him telling congress if you are not in this for the long haul vote no. They found empty wmd mobile labs, im sure they had those and never intended on using them. The whole 911 was made possible by that pussy clinton, firing the 1200 operatives we had inside groups like alqueda. The terrorists want the dems in controle here, so who are they afraid of? when dems are in charge you can kill kill kill americans and they just say"lets talk about this in a civil manner." Bill put us in a ressesion and we were finally pulling out of it and cnn brainwashed america voted in a tax hiking bunch of pussies. If you remember the first q asked of bush while clinton was still in. "Are you upset that Pres clinton is handing you a country that has gone into a ressesion?"

So very, very true.

And not only do they try to armchair it, they also do it with hindsight.

 

[Big Smoothy]

The men in the military deserve our respect.

The Civilian[ leaders that put them in harm's way for the sake of power and money do not deserve respect.

 

[goandykid]

So very, very true.

And not only do they try to armchair it, they also do it with hindsight.

Didn't someone already make the point that msot of the recent wars were fought under a democratic president??

 

[goandykid]

The men in the military deserve our respect.

The Civilian[ leaders that put them in harm's way for the sake of power and money do not deserve respect.

And didn't you write cheerily about their death a few months ago?

Why teh change?

 

[goandykid]

Jarhed:

Why did all these people die?


Because the U.S. likes bombing the sh*t out of countries and killing people.

Azzholes like you that are in Iraq.

Whenever a U.S. helicopter goes down, I celebrate.

Same with road-side bombs and snipers.

.

 

[DOMS]

Didn't someone already make the point that msot of the recent wars were fought under a democratic president??

I must have missed that. But, as always, don't let the facts get in the way.

 

[DOMS]

.

Ouch...

Good memory.

 

[goandykid]

Ouch...

Good memory.

Don't mean to sound childish, but it still angers me. Snafu sounds like an intelligent person but I don't appreciate his hypocrisy when it comes to our troops.

 

[goandykid]

I must have missed that. But, as always, don't let the facts get in the way.

How can I argue w/ a man w/ an avatar like that.

 

[maniclion]

Didn't someone already make the point that msot of the recent wars were fought under a democratic president??

They were started by Dems, then if the Dems stayed in power they won them...when the Repubs took over in between or started one they ended up getting whooped and had to back out Korea,Vietnam or quit halfway through or had no plan for what to do after winning Iraq I and II...

 

[Witmaster]

Don't mean to sound childish, but it still angers me. Snafu sounds like an intelligent person but I don't appreciate his hypocrisy when it comes to our troops.

Yea, he's one of my favorites

 

[goandykid]

Yea, he's one of my favorites

 

[Big Smoothy]

Yes,

I did make mean statements. But those statements were out of my reaction to reading about what was happening to everyone in Iraq, because of lies, greed, and the quest for power the civilians in DoD like Wolfowitz, Rumsfeld, Dough Feith, Armitage, and many others.

It's isn't the military's fault. The military leaders like Gen. Shinseki, Spider Marks, Adm. Vern Clark did the right thing: they told the truth.

They were pushed asided.

I stand to be corrected.

The military are the good men and women.

it's the civilain politicians and bureaucrats that are bad.

I still, must live with my emotional statements, because I did post them.

But it was not, and is not, how I truly feel.

 

[min0 lee]

Yes,

I did make mean statements. But those statements were out of my reaction to reading about what was happening to everyone in Iraq, because of lies, greed, and the quest for power the civilians in DoD like Wolfowitz, Rumsfeld, Dough Feith, Armitage, and many others.

It's isn't the military's fault. The military leaders like Gen. Shinseki, Spider Marks, Adm. Vern Clark did the right thing: they told the truth.

They were pushed asided.

I stand to be corrected.

The military are the good men and women.

it's the civilain politicians and bureaucrats that are bad.

I still, must live with my emotional statements, because I did post them.

But it was not, and is not, how I truly feel.

I forgive.

 

[Witmaster]

Yes,

I did make mean statements. But those statements were out of my reaction to reading about what was happening to everyone in Iraq, because of lies, greed, and the quest for power the civilians in DoD like Wolfowitz, Rumsfeld, Dough Feith, Armitage, and many others.

It's isn't the military's fault. The military leaders like Gen. Shinseki, Spider Marks, Adm. Vern Clark did the right thing: they told the truth.

They were pushed asided.

I stand to be corrected.

The military are the good men and women.

it's the civilain politicians and bureaucrats that are bad.

I still, must live with my emotional statements, because I did post them.

But it was not, and is not, how I truly feel.

Damn dude...

If you would have just said that a couple months ago I'd have saved a fortune in Voo Doo dolls.

 

[clemson357]

No one in Iraq is fighting for your benefit? Thats what I love about America. Any loud-mouth can get on a platform and promote any ill-informed agenda that they please.

I wouldn't expect you to support the war. Democrats, as a per se rule, only support military intervention if it in no way could promote national security or the economy. We can scream all fucking day about the genocide in Darfur. DARFUR DARFUR, FOR THE LOVE OF GOD DO SOMETHING ABOUT THE GENOCIDE IN DARFUR!!!! But if a conservative overthrows a dictator who killed 50,000 kurds (thats called genocide, in case you didn't know) there will be hell to pay, especially if by doing so we also set up a government that might one day be the starting point for stability in a perpetually instable region. Shit, I have an idea, why don't we send some troops to Somalia in a "humanitarian" effort that everyone knows could not possibly provide us any benefit. Then, when we actually get into a hostile conflict, we will retreat a leave our dead soldiers to be dragged naked through the streets by the very people who were oh-so-deserving of our generousity. Or maybe, when we get caught up in a sex and perjury scandal, we can tactically bomb an asprin factory. Thats a great fucking idea, now everyone in the middle east won't get relief from their headaches! Thanks Clinton!