Deputy Tasers woman, 72, during traffic stop

[Will Brink]

Its pretty funny stuff?

No its not funny at all, what if that was your mother or grandmother?

If my mother or grandmother was acting like a complete A-hole as that woman was, they would get no sympathy from me of they got tazed. Writing checks with your mouth your body is not willing to cash, is never a good idea. People seem to have a total lack of respect for the law and a total disconnect between their behavior/actions and the outcomes/results of those behaviors/actions. The stupid woman will probably try and sue the officer and appear on every talk show possible to get her 15 minutes of fame while whining about getting tazed.

 

[maxpro2]

The stupid woman will probably try and sue the officer

Police officers are held to a higher standard. They do not get to inflict pain on someone just because they don't like what that person is saying or because that person is stupid. Use of force needs to be escalated based on need, such as when there is a dangerous threat, and there was no need to use that level of force here.

I hope this lady does sue and I hope this officer gets fired. Having a lack of respect for the law does not mean you can be tortured with some of the highest pain that one can experience.

Yes, she was an asshole. No, she should not have been tased.

 

[Will Brink]

Police officers are held to a higher standard. They do not get to inflict pain on someone just because they don't like what that person is saying or because that person is stupid.

They tell you to do X, and you don't comply, they are authorized to then use force to make you comply. His options were limited. He could use pepper spray, or he could go "hands on" which also has risks. He used what presented the least risk to her and himself. I'm sure you wont understand how realty works in such a situation. He's not going to stand there in a busy highway and argue with her, nor should he. He tells you to move, you move. You don't, force will be applied, and the taser is the safetst use of force there is. That's a fact.

Use of force needs to be escalated based on need, such as when there is a dangerous threat, and there was no need to use that level of force here.

Wrong. She was told, then warned (to which she replied "I dare you!") and force was applied. His dept will stand behind them as they should.

I hope this lady does sue

She will lose.

and I hope this officer gets fired. Having a lack of respect for the law does not mean you can be tortured with some of the highest pain that one can experience.

Again, see above. You, like many people, really have no clue what you are talking about/ understand use of force in such a situation.

Yes, she was an asshole. No, she should not have been tased.

The A Hole part is not really important (though an A Hole she was...). What's important is, she was given an instruction, then correctly warned, then force used. Some cops might have gone "hands on" and used an arm lock then cuffed her, some may have given her a nice dose of pepper spray, but none would allow her to ignore the instructions given after she came out of the car cursing, etc. Shocking as this sounds, cops are not society's personal punching bags either, and abuse does get their attention.

She got exactly what she deserved (though he could have tried another tactic no doubt...) and he will be cleared.

 

[danzik17]

Would need to see the video to really comment. If she was moving onto the highway, then yes force was necessary. If she was just standing next to her car arms crossed, then I don't think it was.

What I find more interesting is how the majority of cops seem to just automatically back up their buddies. Take the recent case of 2 cops shooting a family's dog because they couldn't catch it. Rather than using common sense and calling the SCPA, they shot the dog - on the family's porch no less.

It's actions like that which cause me to lose respect for police. I know there are good cops out there, but then you hear about the abusive powertripping douchebag ones and it's very difficult to tell the type at first glance.

 

[soxmuscle]

Excessive force from a Police Officer?

I'm shocked.

This shit happens more often than not; in other words, there are more shit Cops who shouldn't be wearing the badge than good Cops who actually earn their keep.

 

[QuestionGuy]

They tell you to do X, and you don't comply, they are authorized to then use force to make you comply. His options were limited. He could use pepper spray, or he could go "hands on" which also has risks. He used what presented the least risk to her and himself. I'm sure you wont understand how realty works in such a situation. He's not going to stand there in a busy highway and argue with her, nor should he. He tells you to move, you move. You don't, force will be applied, and the taser is the safetst use of force there is. That's a fact.



Wrong. She was told, then warned (to which she replied "I dare you!") and force was applied. His dept will stand behind them as they should.



She will lose.



Again, see above. You, like many people, really have no clue what you are talking about/ understand use of force in such a situation.



The A Hole part is not really important (though an A Hole she was...). What's important is, she was given an instruction, then correctly warned, then force used. Some cops might have gone "hands on" and used an arm lock then cuffed her, some may have given her a nice dose of pepper spray, but none would allow her to ignore the instructions given after she came out of the car cursing, etc. Shocking as this sounds, cops are not society's personal punching bags either, and abuse does get their attention.

She got exactly what she deserved (though he could have tried another tactic no doubt...) and he will be cleared.

DUDE, "Have you read my posts" roflmao ...Don't even try they dont have a real preception on reality.

 

[Will Brink]

DUDE, "Have you read my posts" roflmao ...Don't even try they dont have a real preception on reality.

Granny got what she got due to her own actions and his use of, and level of, force was well within legal and (if one actually understands use of force doctrine, etc) understandable. Hopefully, white trash granny learned a lesson there, but if she's that big an A Hole at 73, I doubt she'll learn anything from that experience either.

 

[QuestionGuy]

Granny got what she got due to her own actions and his use of, and level of, force was well within legal and (if one actually understands use of force doctrine, etc) understandable. Hopefully, white trash granny learned a lesson there, but if she's that big an A Hole at 73, I doubt she'll learn anything from that experience either.

It's useless dude, they will either come back with personal attacks and insults or completely ignore that you put them in the "reality corner" and just refuse to make a realistic comeback to the situation.

 

[QuestionGuy]

Granny got what she got due to her own actions and his use of, and level of, force was well within legal and (if one actually understands use of force doctrine, etc) understandable. Hopefully, white trash granny learned a lesson there, but if she's that big an A Hole at 73, I doubt she'll learn anything from that experience either.

ALSOOOOO.........He wants tasers being used in only deadly lethal situations....Yeah this guy should be a cop, obviously he would be a great cop dude, his logic just makes sence...if someone has a deadly weapon in their hands, jsut shoot him wiht the taser..no need for guns at all dude...tasers do jsut fine in deadly situations.....WOW MIND BLOWING IGNORANT SHEEP.

 

[QuestionGuy]

" I'm sure you wont understand how realty works in such a situation. He's not going to stand there in a busy highway and argue with her, nor should he. He tells you to move, you move. You don't, force will be applied, and the taser is the safetst use of force there is. That's a fact. "

CHECKMATE!!!

i know i know, i just can't let it go.

 

[maxpro2]

First of all, watch the whole video or read the whole transcript of the altercation. You can hear her say she would sign the ticket but by then the officer wouldn't let her so the she became even more combative

They tell you to do X, and you don't comply, they are authorized to then use force to make you comply. His options were limited. He could use pepper spray, or he could go "hands on"

Absolutely not. Ever hear of something called the Fourth Amendment? There is a test for excessive force: go look it up and tell me how his actions were consistent with that test.

His dept will stand behind them as they should.

Travis County Sheriff Greg Hamilton, whose office does not oversee the constables, issued a statement Wednesday saying: "I do not personally agree with the actions of the deputy constable as they are shown in the video. When I look at the video I am in awe of what happened."

She will lose.

The law regarding the use of tasers for mere compliance is pretty undeveloped in the Fifth Circuit. Her case has merit. If you think she will lose, show me the relevant precedents. If a prisoner cannot be tased for refusing to comply with an order such as cleaning his cell, then I am highly curious as to how you see she will lose so easily. Show me your sources... oh wait, you didn't research anything and just made an assertion on what think the outcome should be, right?

Again, see above. You, like many people, really have no clue what you are talking about/ understand use of force in such a situation.

It seems as if the opposite is true as you have provided only opinion.

What's important is, she was given an instruction, then correctly warned, then force used.

Nope. There was no need for that level of force as she posed no threat.

She got exactly what she deserved (though he could have tried another tactic no doubt...) and he will be cleared.

If you think she deserved that then you are a heartless prick.

 

[maniclion]

So if he hadn't had the taser what was his next option, beat her with his baton, or pistol whip her?

Why don't you guys just admit the cop let a little old lady push his buttons. Those dangerous little old grannies, we gotta watch out for them, they might get fussy with us......

There were better ways for him to deal with her. His yelling and forceful actions escalated the issue when she was just starting to realize if she signed the ticket it would all end. He could have calmy said, "Ma'am lets step to the back of your vehicle so that we aren't in danger of getting hit by traffic." Instead he grabs her and forces her....then starts yelling as if he just got done with a high speed pursuit....... If cops aren't aloud to lose their cool after a high speed chase, what makes it ok during a routine traffic stop?

 

[Will Brink]

ALSOOOOO.........He wants tasers being used in only deadly lethal situations....Yeah this guy should be a cop, obviously he would be a great cop dude, his logic just makes sence...if someone has a deadly weapon in their hands, jsut shoot him wiht the taser..no need for guns at all dude...tasers do jsut fine in deadly situations.....WOW MIND BLOWING IGNORANT SHEEP.

Just armchair experts doing what they always do.

 

[Yanick]

So if he hadn't had the taser what was his next option, beat her with his baton, or pistol whip her?

Why don't you guys just admit the cop let a little old lady push his buttons. Those dangerous little old grannies, we gotta watch out for them, they might get fussy with us......

There were better ways for him to deal with her. His yelling and forceful actions escalated the issue when she was just starting to realize if she signed the ticket it would all end. He could have calmy said, "Ma'am lets step to the back of your vehicle so that we aren't in danger of getting hit by traffic." Instead he grabs her and forces her....then starts yelling as if he just got done with a high speed pursuit....... If cops aren't aloud to lose their cool after a high speed chase, what makes it ok during a routine traffic stop?

Amen to that.

There are protocols which fit 99% of situations but then there is also something called common sense. An example being the guy behind the counter who says to give him $4 instead of $4.05. The thing costs 4.05 and if you follow protocol you need to collect 4.05 for the item, a person who thinks to himself, well I might not have enough change for the next customer if I give this guy .95, or maybe he just wants to be a nice guy and give you a break will just say 4 bucks is cool.

Now legalities and force application protocols aside, common sense should dictate what to do in this situation. I typically side with Will on stuff like this but I'm sorry just because he was legally justified to tase her doesn't mean it was right. Morality and legality are not always congruent and I believe a good cop should be a moral person and not some douche who loses his cool when an old lady yells at him. Was it even necessary for her to sign the ticket? He has everything on camera, I'm sure he could've just given her the ticket and been on his way. There's gotta be fail safes for assholes who won't sign (in NYC they just mail it to you if you refuse to accept). She wasn't going to push him into traffic, nor was she running around wildly and posing a danger to anyone. She was just being an asshole and not complying. Moral abuse of power 100%.

 

[maxpro2]

I'm sorry just because he was legally justified to tase her doesn't mean it was right.

Even that is highly questionable in the fifth circuit. I agree with your post though, which is the point I was trying to push with QuestionGuy... that he would elect to take the most severe force option just because he was entitled to, even if he could safely diffuse the situation with less force.

 

[Will Brink]

Absolutely not. Ever hear of something called the Fourth Amendment?

How does the amend that guards against unreasonable searches and seizures cover this event?

There is a test for excessive force: go look it up and tell me how his actions were consistent with that test.

His actions were consistent with the use of force continuum. Whether the amount/type of force applied will be deemed "excessive" remains to be seen. I say no, it was not.

The law regarding the use of tasers for mere compliance is pretty undeveloped in the Fifth Circuit. Her case has merit. If you think she will lose, show me the relevant precedents. If a prisoner cannot be tased for refusing to comply with an order such as cleaning his cell,

And can be tased for all manner of reasons having to do with non compliance which is related to the issue of excessive force and the force continuum. She was not refusing to clean her room. She was refusing to sign a ticket and being arrested. Maybe this simpleton stuff of yours works on other goofy kids I don't know, but it's not working here.

then I am highly curious as to how you see she will lose so easily. Show me your sources... oh wait, you didn't research anything and just made an assertion on what think the outcome should be, right?

How about a $100 bet? It's public record and mods can record it. I will pay up, will you?

Nope. There was no need for that level of force as she posed no threat.

One does not need to be a threat for force to be used against them by law enforcement. The issue is whether the level of force is/was appropriate to the situation. I say it was. You say it's not.

What's funny is, you cluless types who really have no idea what cops have to deal with every day and love to armchair expert such things ignore the reason it happened: her actions. FYI, she's not just an A Hole, but a lying A Hole:

"She denied the charge, telling a local Fox News reporter, 'I was not argumentative. I was not combative. Every bit of this is a lie.' In response, the constable???s office released the dashboard video of the arrest..."


Lets recap her actions:

"After Deputy Chris Bieze finished writing the ticket, he gave it to her and asked her to sign it.Winkfein refused. Bieze insisted, saying he would have to arrest her if she didn???t sign the ticket. When she wouldn???t sign, he opened the door to the truck and told her to get out."

So once out of the truck she:

???Give me the [expletive] thing and I???ll sign it,??? she tells Bieze, but the officer has already told her she is being arrested. When Winkfein strays close to the traffic lane, the officer pushes her onto the shoulder."

Ah, so now she has a change of heart at the LEO should allow that? He has no reason to, and from her verbal abuse, no intent to either. I'm taking this from MSNBC site:

Great-grandma dared cop to Tase her â?????? so he did - TODAY People

If you think she deserved that then you are a heartless prick.

Nah, I just actually hold people accountable to their actions and see the actual cause and effect of the outcome SHE created. Lets recap how reality works in the real world:

You refuse to sign ticket, verbally abuse cop, refuse to follow cops orders when given a command, warned you will be tased if you don't follow that command and guess what sparky, the chicken dance is the result.

Call me a waaaambulance.....

 

[maxpro2]

How does the amend that guards against unreasonable searches and seizures cover this event?

Wow.... just wow. I am not even going to read the rest of your post because you CLEARLY do not know anything about the law and are in no position to be posting in this thread. Thanks for proving just how ignorant you are.

It is hilarious how people who know nothing about the law doll out advice and opinions as if they are experts. You sir are a joke. It's fucking scary, really.

 

[Will Brink]

. Moral abuse of power 100%.

And on that score I can agree. He could have handled it better, and the cops I know who have watched it, generally agree it could have been handled better. But was he within legal response to her non compliance to his verbal commands? I believe so. Hindsight is always 20/20, but at the end of the day, the reason it went as it did was due to her actions. She's the responsible party here. Lesson is, don't be an A Hole to people, cops or otherwise and you will avoid all sorts of problems in life.

 

[Will Brink]

Wow.... just wow. I am not even going to read the rest of your post because you CLEARLY do not know anything about the law and are in no position to be posting in this thread. Thanks for proving just how ignorant you are.

It is hilarious how people who know nothing about the law doll out advice and opinions as if they are experts. You sir are a joke.

Best avoidance response ever! Well done sir.

 

[maxpro2]

How does the amend that guards against unreasonable searches and seizures cover this event?

Best avoidance response ever! Well done sir.

If you don't even know that the excessive force doctrine for free persons is found in the Fourth Amendment, you have no right to be commenting on matters of law. You have just lost all credibility.

 

[Will Brink]

If you don't even know that the excessive force doctrine for free persons is found in the Fourth Amendment, you have no right to be commenting on matters of law. You have just lost all credibility.

It's the "test of reasonableness" but it's not limited to the 4th genius. Let's see if it makes it to court, and see what's decided if it does. The Landmark Decisions on the issue (e.g, Graham v. Connor, 490 U.S. 386 (1989)) cover it well "The calculus of reasonableness must embody allowance for the fact that police officers are often forced to make split- second judgments -- in circumstances that are tense, uncertain, and rapidly revolving -- about the amount of force that is necessary in a particular situation. "

It's great to be a law expert such as yourself, and have no clue how the reality applies itself in the real world when you are a cop doing the job. Said experts such as yourself usually give the expert advice from the safety of their parents house of posh legal office. The worst is usually in law school or fresh from law school with cops, DAs, etc (you know, people who know the letter of the law rarely applies perfectly to the real world...) waiting 'till you pull your head out of your ass. All I wanted from you was to explain how YOU saw the 4th applying here beyond the obvious generalities of it.

To summarize, I think the cop overreacted but the end result was 100% her fault and her doing and I think she will lose if it goes to court.

 

[danzik17]

I'm going to give this a 50/50 split. I don't agree with the taser (only taking the person's age into consideration and you don't know their medical status), but I DO agree with him pushing her as he did. She was putting him into a dangerous spot being less than a foot from the edge of the highway and he was justified in getting them away from there as quickly as possible when she wouldn't move.

It's all hindsight though. Force did seem to be justified, but it's hard to pin down what KIND of force. Taser could cause medical issues, physical force could break a hip, and you can't just let her go. Cop seemed to have been put in a very hard spot.

 

[Will Brink]

Cop seemed to have been put in a very hard spot.

Agreed, and as posted above "She denied the charge, telling a local Fox News reporter, 'I was not argumentative. I was not combative. Every bit of this is a lie.' In response, the constable???s office released the dashboard video of the arrest..."


Nice person...

 

[maniclion]

Why are you "Clueless" assholes arguing legality? The appalling nature of this whole incident is the lack of control on the officers part when faced with a grumpy granny. Had it been legal for him to toss her into oncoming traffic would he have been as justified according to the laws of human decency? Hell no? I guess I am stuck in some kind of chivalrous timewarp where little old ladies, no matter how cranky they got weren't pushed around and zapped with seizure inducing devices.

 

[danzik17]

Why are you "Clueless" assholes arguing legality? The appalling nature of this whole incident is the lack of control on the officers part when faced with a grumpy granny. Had it been legal for him to toss her into oncoming traffic would he have been as justified according to the laws of human decency? Hell no? I guess I am stuck in some kind of chivalrous timewarp where little old ladies, no matter how cranky they got weren't pushed around and zapped with seizure inducing devices.

Again I'm pretty neutral, but watch the video. I disagree with the tasering but she was putting both of them in a dangerous spot right next to the highway. That was one of those "move your ass or I will make you move your ass" moments.

 

[JerseyDevil]

Why are you "Clueless" assholes arguing legality? The appalling nature of this whole incident is the lack of control on the officers part when faced with a grumpy granny. Had it been legal for him to toss her into oncoming traffic would he have been as justified according to the laws of human decency? Hell no? I guess I am stuck in some kind of chivalrous timewarp where little old ladies, no matter how cranky they got weren't pushed around and zapped with seizure inducing devices.

Totally agree. Maybe the pussy cop should have just arrested her like a real man, or maybe he was afraid she would kick his ass. What would this pussy had done back in the day before tasers?

Elderly people can start to lose their senses, and not have their best interests at heart. So we should just taser them and chalk it up to good law enforcement? He could have killed her. The risk of heart attack, stroke, and seizure had to increase 10 fold, all because she got lippy?

Some of the egos on this board make me sick. The 'I know more then you and I will prove it' mentality is killing IM.

 

[Yanick]

Why are you "Clueless" assholes arguing legality? The appalling nature of this whole incident is the lack of control on the officers part when faced with a grumpy granny. Had it been legal for him to toss her into oncoming traffic would he have been as justified according to the laws of human decency? Hell no? I guess I am stuck in some kind of chivalrous timewarp where little old ladies, no matter how cranky they got weren't pushed around and zapped with seizure inducing devices.

+1

Totally agree. Maybe the pussy cop should have just arrested her like a real man, or maybe he was afraid she would kick his ass. What would this pussy had done back in the day before tasers?

Elderly people can start to lose their senses, and not have their best interests at heart. So we should just taser them and chalk it up to good law enforcement? He could have killed her. The risk of heart attack, stroke, and seizure had to increase 10 fold, all because she got lippy?

+1

All legal bullshit aside this is a problem that is rooted in human nature and morality. I could care less what the law says or what the SCOTUS rules or whatever. Will said it himself here:

It's great to be a law expert such as yourself, and have no clue how the reality applies itself in the real world when you are a cop doing the job...The worst is usually in law school or fresh from law school with cops, DAs, etc (you know, people who know the letter of the law rarely applies perfectly to the real world...) waiting 'till you pull your head out of your ass.

I'll say this again because someone is gonna come on here with some stupid ass force application doctrine or what have you and defend this douche.

Legality does not equal Morality. We are not robots and have highly evolved brains in order to adapt to situations and apply moral and ethical principles to them. Thats why friends/family of cops get away with shit, the guy at the store will not worry about the 5 cents, fees are waived and rules are bent everyday in specific situations which go against standard protocols in the name of morality, decency, efficiency and other factors that are important to the individual and society as a whole.

 

[Will Brink]

in specific situations which go against standard protocols in the name of morality, decency, efficiency and other factors that are important to the individual and society as a whole.

Right, and in the real society, in the real world, laws and efficiency aside, two human beings interacting, run your mouth writing checks your body can't cash may result in getting tased regardless of age or sex. Lady was an abusive lying A Hole and I have zero sympathy for her, and yes, I agree he over reacted.

 

[Will Brink]

Why are you "Clueless" assholes arguing legality? The appalling nature of this whole incident is the lack of control on the officers part when faced with a grumpy granny. Had it been legal for him to toss her into oncoming traffic would he have been as justified according to the laws of human decency? Hell no? I guess I am stuck in some kind of chivalrous timewarp where little old ladies, no matter how cranky they got weren't pushed around and zapped with seizure inducing devices.

Well said. An appalling incident all around. I just don't like people ignoring her roll in it.

 

[brogers]

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More wonderful police action.

Stopping an ambulance, swearing at and physically assaulting a paramedic, while a patient is inside being transported.