Should Christians support Obama?

[troubador]

I've heard all of this before, but it's still a copout. Dawkins calls it "smuggling god thru the back door."
This kind of thinking makes the bible pointless though.
One could make similar arguments about the ten commandments. For example, I've questioned Christians about their acceptance of capital punishment, which seems to go against "thou shall not kill," and their response is that they interpret it as "thou shall not murder.". Using the literal vs non literal interpretation of the bible makes the bible irrelevant, it's like a blank slate that anyone can manipulate to fit their needs. Much like Jim jones did.

There are parts of the bible that are intentionally non-literal (allegories). Even if the creation story isn't literal that doesn't mean the ten commandments aren't either(fallacy of composition). Even if that did make the bible pointless it doesn't mean believing the bible is the word of god and believing in evolution is a contradiction(fallacy of distraction).

 

[exphys88]

If there are things in the bible that are not true, then it can't be the word of god. So, a creationist who accepts the literal interpretation is admitting the bible is not the word of god since evolution is essentially proven.
The theologian who accepts evolution is admitting that parts of the bible are fictional, and without being able to accurately point out the sections that are fictional vs non fictional, he renders the bible as just a fable, not to be taken seriously.

 

[heavyiron]

Fictional is a strong word. Again you are assuming a writing style like allegory to equate to fiction. This is a elementary misunderstanding of types of literature.

 

[troubador]

Based on what?

This is not my area of study but...
The big bang says the size of the universe(y axis) is constantly expanding which means it must have a finite size at a given time(x axis) but the limit as time tends to infinity does not exist.

 

[exphys88]

I know what allegory means, I just don't believe that the creation story falls under that label, and the majority of Christians agree. It's a cop out to deal w the fact that their entire religion becomes fictional when faced w the evidence of evolution.

 

[exphys88]

This is not my area of study but...
The big bang says the size of the universe(y axis) is constantly expanding which means it must have a finite size at a given time(x axis) but the limit as time tends to infinity does not exist.

It's not my area either, I was actually asking a question out of curiosity.

 

[troubador]

Fictional is a strong word. Again you are assuming a writing style like allegory to equate to fiction. This is a elementary misunderstanding of types of literature.

Exactly.

Example of your logic... if some guy, let's call him Dawkins, said something like "smuggling god thru the back door"... well clearly Dawkins didn't mean god was literally smuggled through a back door. That's fictional so you can't tell what Dawkins says is fiction or non-fiction therefore he should not be taken seriously.

 

[hoyle21]

I personally hate it when Christians try to interpret the old testament. It also bothers me that they have made many changes to the Torah (to benefit the new testament) and still claim it is the word of G-d.

 

[troubador]

This is not my area of study but...
The big bang says the size of the universe(y axis) is constantly expanding which means it must have a finite size at a given time(x axis) but the limit as time tends to infinity does not exist.

I realized this answer is incredibly nerdy. So here's my analogy. Think about the universe as the horror movie monster 'The Blob'. The blob starts out small but as it consumes things it keeps getting bigger and bigger. At any given point in time the blob is a certain size but it appears there's no limit to how big the blob can get.

 

[oufinny]

I realized this answer is incredibly nerdy. So here's my analogy. Think about the universe as the horror movie monster 'The Blob'. The blob starts out small but as it consumes things it keeps getting bigger and bigger. At any given point in time the blob is a certain size but it appears there's no limit to how big the blob can get.

Sounds like a nice analogy to Muslim extremism and belief that all others should either bow to Allah or be killed. Or you could equate it to the ingrained hatred towards Christians and Jews that starts at birth among more Muslims than people are comfortable admitting.

 

[troubador]

If there are things in the bible that are not true, then it can't be the word of god. So, a creationist who accepts the literal interpretation is admitting the bible is not the word of god since evolution is essentially proven.
The theologian who accepts evolution is admitting that parts of the bible are fictional, and without being able to accurately point out the sections that are fictional vs non fictional, he renders the bible as just a fable, not to be taken seriously.

Also the ability to discern what is literal and not does not mean it isn't true.(argument from ignorance fallacy)

 

[exphys88]

Exactly.

Example of your logic... if some guy, let's call him Dawkins, said something like "smuggling god thru the back door"... well clearly Dawkins didn't mean god was literally smuggled through a back door. That's fictional so you can't tell what Dawkins says is fiction or non-fiction therefore he should not be taken seriously.

Yes, but we can ask Dawkins if what he meant was fiction or not. With the bible, it's subjective what is considered fictional and everyone has their own opinion.

 

[heavyiron]

Every night I retire to bed and watch a meterologist explain to me on TV when the sun will rise. He gives me a specific time for the sun to rise but its not really true. The sun does not rise. The earth rotates. He knows this so he must be a liar and therefore everything he says must be untrue. This is a pretty radical way to view things. People communicate things in different ways. It may be technically untrue but we know what they mean.

Anyway, I cannot imagine living my life looking for all the errors that really are just communication styles. That's a pretty high and lofty standard that would make me a very rigid person. This is what Western thinking teaches us and its a kind of exceptionalism that is arrogant and short sighted. The Hebrew culture is not like ours. The language is not like ours. To view it with Western preconcieved ideas may cause misunderstanding.

 

[exphys88]

Every night I retire to bed and watch a meterologist explain to me on TV when the sun will rise. He gives me a specific time for the sun to rise but its not really true. The sun does not rise. The earth rotates. He knows this so he must be a liar and therefore everything he says must be untrue. This is a pretty radical way to view things. People communicate things in different ways. It may be technically untrue but we know what they mean.

Anyway, I cannot imagine living my life looking for all the errors that really are just communication styles. That's a pretty high and lofty standard that would make me a very rigid person. This is what Western thinking teaches us and its a kind of exceptionalism that is arrogant and short sighted. The Hebrew culture is not like ours. The language is not like ours. To view it with Western preconcieved ideas may cause misunderstanding.

So, you're basically claiming that the bible is useless to us? I agree.

It's definitely not something to learn morals from and it's definitely not something that will help understand the origins of humans, and it's a horrible historic document, so it really serves no more purpose than Harry potter.

 

[troubador]

Yes, but we can ask Dawkins if what he meant was fiction or not. With the bible, it's subjective what is considered fictional and everyone has their own opinion.

Sure but if we continue with your logic... we can't know if his answer is fiction or non-fiction therefore he still shouldn't be taken seriously.

 

[heavyiron]

So, you're basically claiming that the bible is useless to us? I agree.

LOL, no. You must understand the culture, context and writing styles before you interpret the meaning. That has been my point from the begining. It's also helpful to understand the underlying language because translation may lose its meaning. I have a desire to understand and appreciate other cultures not judge them and their writings because they don't fit my western world view.

 

[exphys88]

LOL, no. You must understand the culture, context and writing styles before you interpret the meaning. That has been my point from the begining. It's also helpful to understand the underlying language because translation may lose its meaning. I have a desire to understand and appreciate other cultures not judge them and their writings because they don't fit my western world view.

I don't disagree w any of this, I think you are correct.
How many Christians actually understand the culture though? How many people that claim to understand, actually do?
I'm not judging creationists, which is the original topic, I'm telling them that they're flat out wrong. And those that hide behind "literal interpretation vs non literal" don't really have any way to prove that it was written in an allegorical fashion, it's just a way to reconcile their faith w facts.

I would be curious how long the idea of non literal interpretation of the bible has been around. I bet it started around the time that science was proving that the stories in the bible couldn't be true.

 

[heavyiron]

I don't disagree w any of this, I think you are correct.
How many Christians actually understand the culture though? How many people that claim to understand, actually do?
I'm not judging creationists, which is the original topic, I'm telling them that they're flat out wrong. And those that hide behind "literal interpretation vs non literal" don't really have any way to prove that it was written in an allegorical fashion, it's just a way to reconcile their faith w facts.

I would be curious how long the idea of non literal interpretation of the bible has been around. I bet it started around the time that science was proving that the stories in the bible couldn't be true.

The bible was written by something like 40 diffrerent authors in like 66 books/letters. It is highly logical that different writing styles were used. Psalms for example are basically lyrics to songs. Definately NOT historical narritive. Proverbs would not be considered historical narrative for the most part. All the prophetic books are pretty cryptic at times and seem to deal with future events so again not historical narrative. This is just off the top of my head. Seems like the parables jesus taught were made up stories to teach spiritual truth so that would be in all the gospels. Obviously those would not be considered historical narrative. I think many writings in the bible appear to be historical narrative but where one is allegory vs historical narrative would take a lot of study to try to determine. Anyway, its hard for me to be black and white about it becuase writing styles do morph throughout various writings.

Song of Solomen was like a love letter/ancient porn....

 

[parsifal09]

 

[parsifal09]

here you go

you're welcome

Reformed Books

Best Commentaries | Old and New Testament Bible Commentary reviews, ratings, and prices

 

[Zaphod]

A friend of mine at work is a Hindu. He believes in many gods. He'll go to a Hindu temple to worship, sometimes a Christian church, a Jewish temple, etc. I asked him why. "Because as long as the message is to live to be a better person the denomination doesn't matter."

 

[exphys88]

The bible was written by something like 40 diffrerent authors in like 66 books/letters. It is highly logical that different writing styles were used. Psalms for example are basically lyrics to songs. Definately NOT historical narritive. Proverbs would not be considered historical narrative for the most part. All the prophetic books are pretty cryptic at times and seem to deal with future events so again not historical narrative. This is just off the top of my head. Seems like the parables jesus taught were made up stories to teach spiritual truth so that would be in all the gospels. Obviously those would not be considered historical narrative. I think many writings in the bible appear to be historical narrative but where one is allegory vs historical narrative would take a lot of study to try to determine. Anyway, its hard for me to be black and white about it becuase writing styles do morph throughout various writings.

Song of Solomen was like a love letter/ancient porn....

The amazing part is that grown adults actually think all of these books, letters, songs are the words of god.

 

[exphys88]

A friend of mine at work is a Hindu. He believes in many gods. He'll go to a Hindu temple to worship, sometimes a Christian church, a Jewish temple, etc. I asked him why. "Because as long as the message is to live to be a better person the denomination doesn't matter."

He should avoid the Jewish temple then because if someone derives their morals from the old testament, then they're probably pretty fucked up.

 

[parsifal09]

christianity is okay

I just never got the trinity

 

[Zaphod]

He should avoid the Jewish temple then because if someone derives their morals from the old testament, then they're probably pretty fucked up.

As long as the message is to be a better person how can that be fucked up?

 

[exphys88]

As long as the message is to be a better person how can that be fucked up?

That is not the message of the old testament. Sure, you may find a few scriptures w a good message, but it's also filled w all sorts of orders to kill people for things like being gay or not being a virgin on your wedding day. A cursory glance at Leviticus and Deuteronomy is all you need to see how atrocious the god of the bible is.

 

[heavyiron]

The amazing part is that grown adults actually think all of these books, letters, songs are the words of god.

Equally amazing to me is that people claim to know that there is no god.

 

[exphys88]

Equally amazing to me is that people claim to know that there is no god.

I agree. Even though I don't believe in a god, it would be silly to say that I know there isn't one, even though he's never been seen, heard or ever given a reason to believe he is actually real.

 

[FUZO]

Nobody should support Barry

 

[jay_steel]

I disagree that gays are discriminated against. They want special treatment and special rights. It's discrimination against straight people. For example, they can have a gay pride parade and celebrate their "colors," but would it be okay if they we held a "straight parade." Of course not, that's hateful and full of bigotry. The left have always shown a fucked up hypocritcal agenda, and Barack Obama is the epitome of a hypocrite.

Ditto, I believe in gay rights period and rights of all people, black, white, asian what ever. But the second we throw a white party shit hits the fan or a white straight parade things would get way out of hand.