6 week insulin run

[Standard Donkey]

i cant fucking wait to try this shit..

 

[heckler7]

I'm just gonna say there is alot of bad info in this thread too much bro-science and no one factual info to help one use insulin correctly.

The difference between humalog and humulin r is in the bell curve. humalog spikes rapidly and higher peaking around 60 minutes then rapidly drops till about 2 hours later at this point it slowly drops for 4-6 hours. last about 8 hours

humulin r has a longer smoother curve and only peaks about half as high 45 minutes after inject and levels off for 2 hours then slowly drops for 4-6 hours with the possibilty for rebound spikes about 4 hours after and last about 8 hours.

Everyone reacts differently and what works for one person should not be considered fact for another.

Only thing you need to focus on is Carbs all other macro BS has nothing to do with insulin use.
Carbs are also sugar and fiber
you need to find a safe amount of insulin per carbs, some carbs take up to 2 hours to digest. When you count carbs fiber and sugar alcohol are subtracted they dont effect blood glucose. You dose insulin on a sliding scale of 15 carbs per iu( different for everyone you need to find your balance) thats how its propperly done..


Risks are not only hypoglycemia which can cuase siezures and death, hypokalemia your lungs become paralyzed and you die, hepatic impairment, insulin resistance.

just sayn. get the fact right and be safe

 

[theCaptn']

Good info on the bell curves - you got a source link for those?

 

[heckler7]

I can try and scan the info that comes with my insulin. Altho they give you a pretty good baseline everyone is different. Your body is constantly producing it own glucose and your insulin production is affected by many things, infection lowers insulin, stress, alcohol.

 

[heckler7]

sweet they have it online pages 6-7 have bell curves for use before high carb meals

http://pi.lilly.com/us/humalog-pen-pi.pdf

 

[theCaptn']

Ah, so you're a diabetic. Info very much appreciated.

Question: do you use insulin for bb purposes?

 

[heckler7]

yes I'm diabetic, I'm not into BBing, more trying to bring up some troubled spots, my calves, triceps and shoulders never developed so I abuse gear for that reason. Seems like insulin use is the most confusing subject when used with AAS, but actually everyone is complicating it

 

[theCaptn']

yes I'm diabetic, I'm not into BBing, more trying to bring up some troubled spots, my calves, triceps and shoulders never developed so I abuse gear for that reason. Seems like insulin use is the most confusing subject when used with AAS, but actually everyone is complicating it

The question is, do you time your slin dosages to maximize your gains?

 

[Mike Arnold]

would you recommend taking say... 5g with every meal?

It really depends on what you're eating/taking it with. The science says that protein syntheis is maxmized with 4.5 grams, but keep in mind that this was 4.5 grams of leucine in powder form, which means it was digested rapidly and all at once; it did not trickle into the system over several hours. As an example, if you eat enough beef to take in 4.5 grams of leucine, that 4.5 grams will take several hours to digest and reach the blood stream. Small amounts of leucine will gradually be leached into circulation, which means you're really not taking in anywhere near enough leucine to optimize proten synthesis. Optimizing protein synthesis with 4.5 grams requires that it all be dumped into the system in a bolus.

The reason why whey protein does a better job of stimulating protein syntheis in comparison to other proteins (on a gram per gram basis) is because of its higher leucine content, as well as its ability to dump that leucine into the bloodstream quickly. It takes about 40-45 grams of whey to get 4.5 grams of leucine, but since regular whe even isolates do not digest instantly, the leucine takes about 90 minutes t fully enter circulation. That is still much quicker than other proteins, such as meat, but not quick enough to maximize protein synthesis. If you take whey hydrolysate, there really isn't any need to supplement with additional leucine (assuming you're consuming about 40-45 grams at once), as the leucine in hydrolyzed whey will rapidly dump into the bloodstream...within about 30 minutes, which is good enough.

Now, with the 3 shakes in the insulin protocol, leucine is added to each one, but that is because each shake only has 20 grams of protein. So, you would need to add about 2.5-3.0 grams of additional leucine to the shakes, in order to maximize protein synthesis each time. I find this approach superior to adding more hydrolyate, as drinking 40-45 grams of hydrolysate in 3 different hsakes over a relatively short period of time is not only expensive, but it increases the volume of the hakes too much during a workout. By adding a bit of leucine with each shake, not only is protein synthesis maximized, but you won't feel as full...and its cheaper. Besides, when consuming 3 shakes, the person is already taking in 60 grams of whey hydrolysate over a couple hour period, which is plenty...absolutely no need for additional protein.

Now, if you are eating something like steak, then yes, I would recommend about 4 grams of leucine, in order to make up for the very slow digestion time of red meat. In reality, any protein you consume can be made into a super-protein, as long as leucine levels are optimal. You could eat only soy and achieve the same increase in protein synthesis you would experience with whey, as long as you add in the requisite amount of leucine.

 

[Mike Arnold]

^^ Truenutrition has hydrolyzed casein, not just pepto pro,, not sure if it micellar though.

I did 5iu humulin r preworkout this morning, using the the shakes as Mike posted and the pumps were crazy, I shortened the times in between shakes to 60 minutes instead of 75 because my workouts are only about 75 minutes long. The recovery time in between sets was a lot shorter. I'm going to bump to 8iu tomorrow.

Wait till you get up to about 15 IU...great pumps...much, much better than 5 IU.

 

[Mike Arnold]

I know it is leagle to get the R type but what do you say to pharmist to get it without raising alarm

How about..."I'll take a bottle of Humulin R please, thanks". That will do it.

 

[theCaptn']

Update: took 12iu preWO as per Mike's set out - shakes are 40min apart.

Did a high-vol Leg WO focussing on hams and calves. Again killer pumps, but also noticed heighted recovery btw sets. Finished off with 20 rep leg press and shorts were unbelievably tight over my quads. Weight is up another 0.5kg and I'm feeling heavy.

Got caught in a meeting running overtime mid - morning, started to get a little light-headed. Meal was an hour late, and never felt like I fully recovered during the day. Had shortness of breath, but that may have been tren-related.

Got two more WOs for the week before I shelve the slin for a few months.

 

[theCaptn']

Wait till you get up to about 15 IU...great pumps...much, much better than 5 IU.

Lol sold! 15iu on Wed it is!

 

[Mike Arnold]

I'm just gonna say there is alot of bad info in this thread too much bro-science and no one factual info to help one use insulin correctly.
Really? Actually, you're the one spitting out some nonsense right now...and I will be more than happy to point it out. I will start out by addressing the safety factor of the recommended program. First and foremost, as long as blood sugar is maintained in a safe range throughout the life of the slin, that is all that matters from a safety standpoint. I have had literally over 100 people follow this plan (that I know of, not to mention all the others who have used it on various sites that I don't know about...which is many) and not a single one of them had any serious trouble. Why? Because the nutritional intake I recommend relative to the types & qautities of slin administered is more than adequate, even for those with the highest levels of insulin sensitivity. Everything has been thought out in advance.

The macro content contained in the shakes is more than enough to cover the slin dosage recommended...easily. In fact, it is way more than enough for anyone. I have never, I repeat...NEVER seen a single person requirr more than 15 grams of macros per IU, which is what this plan calls for. If someone out there does, then it still won't matter. The amount of macros contained in the shakes was selected so that it would cover the slin dose even if there were no other sources of blood sugar to compensate. Not only would the person already have blood sugar present prior to consuming their 1st shake (enough to cover several IU of slin in the overwhelimgly large number of cases), but in times of danergously low blood sugar, the body's defense mechanism, glucogenesis, kicks in....which is amazingly efficient as handling fairly large amounts of insulin. There is NO WAY in all hell that the number of IU's recommended would ever overcome the nutrional intake in the shakes, the person's current blood sugar, and the body's natural defense mechanism.

Most people, especially BB'rs, only require about 5-8 grams of macros per IU of insulin. These shakes contain 15...more than enough for anyone...and when you consider the body;s current blood dusgat and glucogensis, there is no way in FUCK anyone is going into a coma or having a fucking seizure!

The difference between humalog and humulin r is in the bell curve. humalog spikes rapidly and higher peaking around 60 minutes then rapidly drops till about 2 hours later at this point it slowly drops for 4-6 hours. last about 8 hours
We know the diffrence betwen humulin R and humalog. LOL at Humalog being a relevant presence at 8 hours post-inject. Would you like me to pull up some charts showing the release rates of these drugs, with their exact bell curves? The bottom line is that after 3 hours, at the most (more likely 2 hours), Humalog no longer needs to be considered a viable presence.


humulin r has a longer smoother curve and only peaks about half as high 45 minutes after inject and levels off for 2 hours then slowly drops for 4-6 hours with the possibilty for rebound spikes about 4 hours after and last about 8 hours.
Hmmm...you're repeating yourself. Regardless, this info on humulin R has already been stated here.

Everyone reacts differently and what works for one person should not be considered fact for another.
Of course...this is common sense. The the primary variable in used in determining how many macros an individual needs to consume relative to the number of IU injected is their insulin senestivity....period. Like I said above, the amount (and the timing) of the macros selected are more than sufficient, even for those with excellent insulin sensitivity and because of this, I have eliminated the danger found in personal "reaction" (the word "reaction doesn't really fit with what you're trying to describe. You would have been better served saying "differences in insulin sensitivity", but since you used "reaction", I figured I woulf follow suit for your understanding).

Only thing you need to focus on is Carbs all other macro BS has nothing to do with insulin use.
You have no idea what you're talking about. The "type" of macro (whether carbs or protein) is NOT what matters. The ONLY thing that matters is how quickly the macros are dumpoed into the bloodstream....period. There are PLENTY of proteins in this world that will eneter circulation as fast or faster than many carbs...and will use up insulin for transport just as quickly or even more quickly. Take hydrolyzed whey protein, for example. Hydrolyzed whey protein digests very rapidly, about as fast as dextrose...and will result in a fairly large spike in blood amino acid levels over a short period of time. Someone could take a very large dosage of insulin and consume NOTHING but hydrolyzed whey protein and not have ANY problem at all...as long as they consume the required amount of hydrolyzed whey. Even whey isolate can be used this way, although not as effectively as hydrolyzed proteins. Hell, almost ANY powdered protein which has quick digestion rate can be can be used this way. In other words, certain proteins can be counted like carbs when using insulin...and being that this is a BB'ing website, with many guys consuming protein powders of various sorts all the time, this is an extremely relevant topic...one which you are clearly ignorant about. Next time, skip the "bro-science" and make sure what you say is correct.

Carbs are also sugar and fiber
Sugar is a carb? Damn...I don't think anyone here knew that. It's not like we're BB'rs or anything...or even know basic nutrition information for that matter.

Some fiber barely elevates blood sugar... and other fiber doesn't elevate blood sugar at all...so counting fiber as part of your macro intake would not be smart. Go ahead and inject 30 iu of insulin and then consume nothing but a bunch of psyllium seed husk...and let me know how that goes for you...LOL.

you need to find a safe amount of insulin per carbs
Really? We had no fucking idea! Wow!

, some carbs take up to 2 hours to digest.
Some carbs take longer than 2 hours...so what's your point? Ohhh...I know, you're trying to educate this "broscience" board with the most basic information on nutrition there is...stuff we all leared many years ago when we first started researching nutrition. I don't think you give the guys on this board enough credit. They are way past this rudimentary bullshit...and quite grankly, NOTHING you have said in this post has been of any real value in helping with their insulin use. The only piece of useful informatioin you gave was previously stated by someone else in this same thread.

When you count carbs fiber and sugar alcohol are subtracted they dont effect blood glucose. You dose insulin on a sliding scale of 15 carbs per iu( different for everyone you need to find your balance) thats how its propperly done..
That is exactly how many grams of carbs AND hydrolyzed protein are contained in my shakes...but like I said above, very FEW people will require the full 15. I have never met a single person who did...but thanks for "telling us how it's done"...LOL.


Risks are not only hypoglycemia which can cuase siezures and death, hypokalemia your lungs become paralyzed and you die, hepatic impairment, insulin resistance.
Really? No shit. We had no idea there were other side effects to insulin use.

just sayn. get the fact right and be safe
Boy, you don't know jackshit about how to use insulin in BB'rs. Just because you may be a diabetic (that is my guess, as it is brutally apparent you know nothing about using insulin in BB'rs), do you really think that qualifies you to give advice on using insulin in BB'rs? Let me guve you the answer. NOOOOOO! I know 2 lifelong diabetics...one of which has educated himself as much as he possibly could about his illness and how to best manage that illness with insulin, yet there is a LOT he doesn't understand about using insulin for BB'ing. There is a BIG fucking difference between a diabetic treating "HIMSELF" with insulin to manage his disease...and a non-diabetic using insulin for BB'ing purposes. They are 2 completely different things altogether.

Your comment that "nothing counts but carbs" is HIGHLY ignorant and shows that you have no clue how to use insulin in BB'rs....or even how insulin works! Now THAT is disturbing...you're giving insulin advice, yet you don't even understand how this peptide is affected by the different macro-nutrients. Holy shit! That is basic fucking info...and I have to say, it doesn't exactly bode well for somone who is claiming to "shed light" on this board...LOL. What cracks me up is that you basically insulted everyone in this thread by saying there is nothing but broscience in it, as well as nothing which is useful for telling people how to use insulin. In reality, the exact opposite is true....you have not provided one useul piece of info which was not already posted...and you sure as hell didn't teach anyone about how to use insulin for BB'ing purposes. The bottom line is you know MUCH less than you think you do about this peptide and how to use it to accomplish the goals of a BB'r (safely)...and some of the stuff you are calling broscience has been based on of both fact and extensive ressearch, while many of your statenments are not only broscience, but flat-out, 100% WRONG! So, the next time you start insulting everyone in an entire thread, you better know what the fuck you're talking about.

.....

 

[Mike Arnold]

yes I'm diabetic, I'm not into BBing, more trying to bring up some troubled spots, my calves, triceps and shoulders never developed so I abuse gear for that reason. Seems like insulin use is the most confusing subject when used with AAS, but actually everyone is complicating it

LOL...I knew it...it was obvious by your post that you didn't know jack-dick about how to use insulin for BB'ing. You're the typical diabetic who thinks he automatically knows what the hell he is talking about simply because he is a diabetc. I got news for you...you don't know shit about how to apply this drug to the world of BB'ing....and you certainly don;t know how to best maintain someone's insulin sensitivity in the long-term.

You MIGHT know how to keep someone safe from acute harm (hypohlycemia), but I certainly wouldn't have faith in you, as the ONLY person you've ever treated was yourself..not exactly good for instilling confidence.

 

[Mike Arnold]

The question is, do you time your slin dosages to maximize your gains?

It is EXTREMEY obvious that this guy doesn't know jack shit about how to use insulin in BB'rs. He has NO CLUE how to answer the question you just posted...nor does he know a bunch of other CRUCIAL shit one must know in order proplery direct a BB'r. I have met numerous diabetics like him....guys that think they know "everything" about insulin simply because they have the disease. Typically, they are worthless when it comes to learing how to best use insulin for BB'ing p\ourposes...and they are worthless when it comes to teaching someone how to best maintain long-term health (because as a diabetic, he isn't exposed to all the same riska we are as non-diabetics). They only treat themselves as it applies to their disease...big difference between what they and what we are trying to accomplish.

 

[Standard Donkey]

so glad you're here Mike Arnold.. thank you for taking the time out of your busy schedule to teach us these things.




here is the humalog protocol im going to be running, what do you think?

Pre/post/during workout protocol for training days:
45 min Preworkout: 1/2 cup oats (dry measure), 45g grams protein from whey, 1 tbsp almond butter, 3g beta alanine, 5g citrulline malate

Workout drink (start drinking 15 minutes before training; 80g carbs from Karbolyn or Karboload, 1 scoop Pepto-Pro, 3g beta alanine, 5g citrulline malate

Humalog 10ius taken 5-10 minutes before training


1 hour post workout: 1.5 cups cooked white rice, 7oz cooked measure lean steak (top round, eye of round, etc.)

(have at least one more whole food meal before going to bed, if you train in the evenings)



so eat meal 45minutes pre, begin drinking drink 15 minutes pre, pin 10 minutes pre.

 

[Standard Donkey]

bump

 

[dieseljimmy]

LOL...I knew it...it was obvious by your post that you didn't know jack-dick about how to use insulin for BB'ing. You're the typical diabetic who thinks he automatically knows what the hell he is talking about simply because he is a diabetc. I got news for you...you don't know shit about how to apply this drug to the world of BB'ing....and you certainly don;t know how to best maintain someone's insulin sensitivity in the long-term.

You MIGHT know how to keep someone safe from acute harm (hypohlycemia), but I certainly wouldn't have faith in you, as the ONLY person you've ever treated was yourself..not exactly good for instilling confidence.

So after reading mikes responses... My first thought goes to billy madison

question: "The industrial revolution changed the face of the American novel forever. Discuss citing specific examples."


Billy: "The industrial revolution to me is just like a story i know called the puppy who lost his way. The world was changing, and the puppy was getting bigger...So you see, the puppy was like industry, in that they were both lost in the woods and nobody, especially the little boy, "society", knew where to find them. Except that the puppy was a dog, but the industry my friends, that was a revolution. Knibb High football rules!"


Question asker: "Mr Madison, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."


Billy:"Ok, a simple wrong would have done just fine."

 

[AlphaMaleDawg]

lmfao at Mike Arnold's ownage

 

[cottonmouth]

Haha ,,

I did 11iu. today. And after I drank my last shake I decided to put off my meal to let myself go a bit hypo to see how it feels. To me it was very manageable, it felt like it took a long time to build up, started sweating a bit, then I would say it "hit" me after about 20 minutes. Got a bit dizzy, shaky hands, more sweat. I drank half a soda and was better in ten minutes. Then ate my meal. No big deal.

There was a great deal of warning I would say. If you ignore that 20-30 minutes where your dropping then the hit could be a surprise I guess. But it was very obvious.

And the pumps are insane, I am on drol too, but definitely the greatest pumps of my life. Even hours after my workout my lats are pumped, and painful if I flex them.

 

[Standard Donkey]

Haha ,,

I did 11iu. today. And after I drank my last shake I decided to put off my meal to let myself go a bit hypo to see how it feels. To me it was very manageable, it felt like it took a long time to build up, started sweating a bit, then I would say it "hit" me after about 20 minutes. Got a bit dizzy, shaky hands, more sweat. I drank half a soda and was better in ten minutes. Then ate my meal. No big deal.

HOW DID U NOT DIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEe

 

[Antidemo]

Diabetic and on pump Keeps lean but usually after taking bolus of humalog and hitting gym come home with a BG of 30mg/DL. But y'all are able to eat heavy carbs I can't. As long as you eat should be good.

 

[Mike Arnold]

so glad you're here Mike Arnold.. thank you for taking the time out of your busy schedule to teach us these things.
Don't mention it. I am here to enjoy myself just like everyone else, but thanks.


here is the humalog protocol im going to be running, what do you think?

Pre/post/during workout protocol for training days:
45 min Preworkout: 1/2 cup oats (dry measure), 45g grams protein from whey, 1 tbsp almond butter, 3g beta alanine, 5g citrulline malate

Workout drink (start drinking 15 minutes before training; 80g carbs from Karbolyn or Karboload, 1 scoop Pepto-Pro, 3g beta alanine, 5g citrulline malate

Humalog 10ius taken 5-10 minutes before training


1 hour post workout: 1.5 cups cooked white rice, 7oz cooked measure lean steak (top round, eye of round, etc.)

(have at least one more whole food meal before going to bed, if you train in the evenings)



so eat meal 45minutes pre, begin drinking drink 15 minutes pre, pin 10 minutes pre.

From a safety standpoint, it looks fine to me. You're consuming a fairly large dose of karboload and PeptoPro at basically the same time you inject your Humalog, at a ratio of about 10:1 ratio (mascros to slin). However, you're also consuming slower digesting oats, some whey, and almond butter 45 minutes pre-workout, which will help supply additional nutrients after the Karboload and Peptopro have already dumped into the sytem. That should be more than fine for managing a 10 IU inject of humalog.

By the time you get to your rice and steak meal, the humalog will be pretty much all used up, whch is fine, but just putting it out there.

Some guys who use humalog, especially if they train on the longer side (90-120 minutes) will inject Humalog twice...once shortly before training...and again about 2-2.5 hours later so they can more efficiently transport the nutrients from the post-workout meal into the muscle, as well. Injecting Humalog in 2 doses, with each about 2 hours apart, is similar to using Humulin R, in terms of how long insulin levels will stay elevated. Of course, you don't have to do that, but it is an option.

 

[Standard Donkey]

From a safety standpoint, it looks fine to me. You're consuming a fairly large dose of karboload and PeptoPro at basically the same time you inject your Humalog, at a ratio of about 10:1 ratio (mascros to slin). However, you're also consuming slower digesting oats, some whey, and almond butter 45 minutes pre-workout, which will help supply additional nutrients after the Karboload and Peptopro have already dumped into the sytem. That should be more than fine for managing a 10 IU inject of humalog.

By the time you get to your rice and steak meal, the humalog will be pretty much all used up, whch is fine, but just putting it out there.

Some guys who use humalog, especially if they train on the longer side (90-120 minutes) will inject Humalog twice...once shortly before training...and again about 2-2.5 hours later so they can more efficiently transport the nutrients from the post-workout meal into the muscle, as well. Injecting Humalog in 2 doses, with each about 2 hours apart, is similar to using Humulin R, in terms of how long insulin levels will stay elevated. Of course, you don't have to do that, but it is an option.

thank you sir! i will definitely be exploring other methods in the future, just want to be safe/effective for my first run (which starts this friday, will post thread)

 

[murf23]

I cant believe how much I am learning from Mike and this whole thread ...Great job with your log Captn' thanks . And also Donkey for all the great questions . Its great to have Mike here and I really want to give this a try also . Been wanting to for years but I think Im gonna wait to follow Donkeys log also and see how it goes ...But alll and all GREAT FUCKING THREAD RIGHT HERE

 

[Mike Arnold]

thank you sir! i will definitely be exploring other methods in the future, just want to be safe/effective for my first run (which starts this friday, will post thread)

For your 1st day, I generally recommend starting with only about 6-7 IU of humalog...then around 8 IU the next...then 10 IU after that. You're better off giving yourself at least 1-2 days to break into it.

 

[theCaptn']

Yep big thanks and respect to Mike for his knowledge and guidance - IM is lucky to have him here

 

[pieguy]

Glad MA is setting people straight about insulin usage. This board has always been extremely frightened by the stuff.

But my question is with the recommendation for Branched Chain Cyclic Dextrins, where there hell do you get them...? Seems like Glycofuse by Gaspari is the only supplement that has them right now without being a shitty proprietary blend.

 

[theCaptn']

I could only find the gaspari product - it's not cheap!