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Another Bush Tax Cut

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kbm8795 said:
Low voter turnout this year might be accentuated by moderate Republicans who have been increasingly pulling away from the radical platform established in New York.

But one thing is strange. . .why would a patriotic American celebrate a kickback via tax cuts when that same American believes in pouring more money into reconstructing Iraq?
Seems like a real patriot would either just send it back in to support our troops and the War, or at least pledge it to Pat Robertson and give it back to The Party.

Of course, even if you don't, it will get eaten up in higher gas prices, increasing utility bills and taxes, higher auto and health insurance rates, and increases in food costs.

Ok Mr. Optimist. :)

It is common knowledge that lower tax rates stimulate the economy and lead to increased revenue. I happen to believe that we are overtaxed right now and I welcome tax relief.

The government will just have to figure how to cut the fat to get the necessary things done.

Radical platform in NY? Do you care to elaborate?
 
austinite said:
Ok Mr. Optimist. :)

It is common knowledge that lower tax rates stimulate the economy and lead to increased revenue. I happen to believe that we are overtaxed right now and I welcome tax relief.

uh...sure it is....we saw a tremendous growth in ...gosh, the manufacturing sector, the industrial base was enhanced, the tech industry expanded to record levels....there was tremendous growth in education employment, agricultural production payrolls, oops...I mean, WalMart added new employees and the government payroll grew. Consumer spending went up for awhile..more houses...and more credit debt. And overtaxed? We're reminded every day that this nation is at War. . .you have a duty to check your personal greed for the common good of freedom and ..ahem..liberty. Fighting this war involves more than just ideological rhetoric. Talk "overtaxed" to the people who end up getting that tax break and turn it over to their state and local governments which have been running on deficits for the last three years. Or the ones who realize that big break will provide just enough cash to cover their health insurance premium for a month or two after their employer closes their plant and moves operations overseas.

The government will just have to figure how to cut the fat to get the necessary things done.

Well, ain't that just the most patriotic remark? We need to be supporting our nation and our troops, but don't be asking ME to do my part...

The Party has had four years running Congress and the White House and the government just got fatter and there are more federal agencies and people on the payroll than ever. Unless you expect Revs. Falwell, Robertson and Moon to bail us out with another televised begging session, the fat that's gonna be cut involves some of the same programs you say are triumphs of the Prez. Perhaps if the Prez called it a "tithe" then it wouldn't seem like you were so overtaxed.
Who cares if you get a tax cut if it goes to a deregulated utility that multiplies service fees and adds other taxes?


Radical platform in NY? Do you care to elaborate?

Unless you didn't read the Party's platform, it contains a rather curious number of proposed constitutional amendments, many of which are designed to restrict civil liberties. Some are much more radical than anything the President himself has proposed, putting him in a rather odd position when these issues finally come to the forefront. More than that, as a rightwinger, you are most certainly aware of WHO was involved in drafting that platform - the convention was almost a televangelist revival. At least one Party congressperson refused to attend because of the radical and uncompromising nature of the platform; moderates have been duking it out with radical religious candidates in states where the Party bothered to hold primaries. Those decisions cost endorsements from several moderate party groups and many moderates will quietly skip voting for certain offices rather than approve rightwing candidates.That's why the campaign is so dependent on evangelicals - and if successful, those evangelicals expect something in return. Most of that agenda involves depriving someone else.

It isn't the Republican Party of Reagan - it's a pseudo-religious organization which operates its campaign tactics on fear, smearing the opponent, demonizing groups of their fellow citizens, hiding behind churches, attacking the court system, and proposing the largest number of bills and constitutional amendments seen in over a century.. all to enhance the power of extremist religious groups with a hunger for dominance and a penchant for rewriting history. Why, the RNC just admitted that they sent out mailings to West Virginia voters proclaiming that voting for a Democrat means voting for gay marriage and banning the Bible. It's a tactic straight off the Falwell-Robertson-Kennedy technique of evangelism.

You yourself cheer on any perceived campaign manipulation move as a sign of good things to come for the country - a sort of "win at any cost and the American people will just swallow whatever we tell them" attitude.

As early as last February, one Party precinct committeeperson remarked that Tom DeLay went on and on about the Prez being appointed by God, and slowly that story has unfolded among other Party moderates who are uncomfortable with candidates imposing peculiarly skewed religious views as public policy. While some of those smear campaigns worked in Party primaries, it has already backfired terribly on carpetbagger Illinois senatorial candidate Allen Keyes - the last poll I saw reported him with 23% support - possibly a record LOW in this state. As a former Republican precinct committeeperson, I already know I won't be voting for a single party member all the way down the ballot and expect to see a rise in Libertarian votes in regional races.

Win or lose, the damage done by the divisive, vile and hateful nature of this campaign is not likely to ebb after the election. In my opinion, there isn't anything moral for the Party to crow about.
 
Wordy post, me thinks thou dost protest too much...

Let me start here: What effect do you think 9-11 & war has had on the U.S. economy? All considered, our economy has held up rather well, thanks largely in part to the tax cuts that have stimulated growth and recovery.

Restricting civil liberties? Do you consider ending partial birth abortion radical? Do you consider protecting the sanctity of marriage radical? Faith-based initiatives? If so, I'm guilty on all counts. Unlike the democratic party however, the GOP has room for disagreement, which explains why we have moderates and conservatives as leaders in our party.

The Reagan legacy is alive and well under Bush. Bush has proven to be more agressive than RR when it comes to using our military though. Can you imagine how W would have reacted if the Lebanon Barracks had occurred on his watch? The tax cuts, deregulation, support of faith organizations and pro-life policies are quite similar though.

Smearing the opponent? I guess in your book it is a smear to shine light on what John Kerry has done in public life over the last 30 years: Serve honorably in Vietnam, Protest the war and accuse the military of atrocities AS POLICY, establish the #1 liberal record in the US Senate, Flip-Flop on many, many issues.

Face it, GW Bush has done a fine job as president and that is why it is clear that he will be re-elected by the voters of America.

Furthermore, just like Reagan, after being hated and reviled by liberals for years, he will no doubt be regarded by history as one of our greatest presidents.
 
austinite said:
You should adopt the following mindset: My personal success or failure does not depend upon who occupies the Oval Office.

I have worked for Motorola since 1986 and I earn a decent salary but with this economy that we are in I can't keep up. I now see more misery on the streets than I have in years, it reminds me of the '70's. I see more and more people going thru garbage for 5 cent deposit bottles. Wake up dude. I have nothing against republicans (I voted for Reagan) but both Bushes sucked.Read my lips--both Bushes suck
 
gr81 said:
, he should be standing up and saying he wouldn't have done Iraq in the first place.
The problem with that strategy is that he voted for the war.
 
austinite said:
It is common knowledge that lower tax rates stimulate the economy and lead to increased revenue. I happen to believe that we are overtaxed right now and I welcome tax relief.
Word:thumb:
 
austinite said:
Wordy post, me thinks thou dost protest too much...

Let me start here: What effect do you think 9-11 & war has had on the U.S. economy? All considered, our economy has held up rather well, thanks largely in part to the tax cuts that have stimulated growth and recovery.

Really now? Well, you yourself aren't interested in putting your own money into fighting this war. . .in fact, in most modern wars involving American police actions, the economy used to boom. Of course, that was back when we actually manufactured our own weapons and support materials. Now you have difficulty finding an item of clothing made in your own country.


Restricting civil liberties? Do you consider ending partial birth abortion radical? Do you consider protecting the sanctity of marriage radical? Faith-based initiatives? If so, I'm guilty on all counts. Unlike the democratic party however, the GOP has room for disagreement, which explains why we have moderates and conservatives as leaders in our party.

Yeah, you are guilty. I won't get into the abortion argument, because it opens up an entirely different can of worms - but I don't happen to believe the government has any more business regulating someone's body than they do in banning firearms. Kinda makes me remember a particular religious denomination with lots of political influence in this country who used to refuse to give C-sections during childbirth in hospitals. If the mother died, according to thei religious doctrine, it was God's will.

"Sanctity" of marriage? Have you ever read the "marriage" ceremony as performed by the state or county? Ever notice the absence of "for a lifetime" in that constitutional amendment "defining" the sanctity of marriage? Now, just what part of that state ceremony and exchange of vows sanctimonious? Would it be, perhaps, automatic property and inheritance rights? The right to choose your own funeral arrangements? The "sanctity" of hospital visitation rights or health decisions? Marriage starts with the sanctity of the individuals
choosing to be joined together, not some vague and disputed religious notion over who is entitled to contracting with the state.

Every heterosexual adulterer, rapist, murderer and pedophile and divorcee is allowed and encouraged to participate in the "sanctity" of marriage without requirement that they change their behavior, or have their relationship dissolved for violating or conducting unsanctimonious behavior. The only sanctity is the bond between two people, not the state's stamp on it. Unless, of course, you believe the government has an inherent interest in regulating individual choices in love or should choose your spouse for you.

Curiously, you have no concern for the legally married gay couples who, if the platform passed a constitutional amendment, would have the government knock on their door and dissolve their families. Or if they become political refugees or need to seek asylum elsewhere for persecution. But then, persecution is the hallmark of a "moral" theocracy, isn't it?



The Reagan legacy is alive and well under Bush. Bush has proven to be more agressive than RR when it comes to using our military though. Can you imagine how W would have reacted if the Lebanon Barracks had occurred on his watch? The tax cuts, deregulation, support of faith organizations and pro-life policies are quite similar though.

I think the only things left from the Reagan legacy are deregulated utilities that have raised their usage rates some 300% and the destruction of the broadcast Fairness Doctrine which has now filled our airwaves with hours and hours of Pat Robertson and Rush without regard for providing balance or another viewpoint. At the time, Reagan optimistically believed that would encourage more vibrant debate and that the American people were smart enough to choose variety in their information sources; instead, it has turned into information dictated by ownership and corporate political power.


Smearing the opponent? I guess in your book it is a smear to shine light on what John Kerry has done in public life over the last 30 years: Serve honorably in Vietnam, Protest the war and accuse the military of atrocities AS POLICY, establish the #1 liberal record in the US Senate, Flip-Flop on many, many issues.

Being an responsible American citizen does not involve silence when our government makes mistakes. Unless you are prepared to say that our government has never made atrocious policy errors or that people in power cannot become tyrants. This is 2004 - Kerry served; Bush avoided the draft 30 years ago. We have another war to contend with. "Liberal" is nothing but some tired buzzword...it isn't exactly treasonous. Treason is when you know a moral wrong is being committed and you not only cover it up but lie to your own nation about it. "Flip-flop?" That's a Party cliche. . .part of the smear campaign tactics used by the Bush campaign in the same vein it was used against John McCain during the South Carolina primary four years ago.

Face it, GW Bush has done a fine job as president and that is why it is clear that he will be re-elected by the voters of America.

You mistaken a possible win during a hateful, vile and divisive campaign for being a sanction for doing a "fine" job. I happen to believe that wasting time on legislation to placate Pat Robertson is hardly beneficial to all Americans. I don't believe in turning tax dollars into welfare for dubious religious organizations that openly engage in employment discrimination and have a proven track record of spending more money in self-interest than humane endeavors. I don't believe in the government choosing certain religious supporters as recepients of those dollars, either, while ignoring other good works of churches who don't openly support the Administration. Or the practice of attempting to deny recognition to denominations as "christian" unless they subscribe to the religious right's agenda. I don't vote for a spiritual leader. . .I vote for a President to lead all the country.

Furthermore, just like Reagan, after being hated and reviled by liberals for years, he will no doubt be regarded by history as one of our greatest presidents.

It isn't as black and white as all that - nor as tired as that "liberal" label. He will be remembered as the most divisive president since Lyndon Johnson, and one who led an attempt to revolutionize our constitutional rights and move the nation toward a theocracy without respect or regard for the opinions of anyone outside his base. He will continue being brutal in dumping any level of federal employee who voices a different opinion, continue a trend of secrecy in decisionmaking processes and assault the Bill of Rights.
 
You Bush-haters need to stop, you've long past the point of embarrassing yourselves.
 
Pepper you are being a jerk ... disention is one of the blocks in the foundation a strong nation is built upon. I like you Pepper. But that crack was below your abilities as a debate professional. I'll pretend I didn't see it.
 
Pepper said:
You Bush-haters need to stop, you've long past the point of embarrassing yourselves.
Says he, shameful Drone of the Republican party. The criticism will end when he's safely out of office. Until then it's open season. He fucked up the economy, the war on terror, international relationships and is taking the country in the wrong direction.

The real embarassment is seeing people like you defend the Bush administration without admiting any policy errors whatsoever. Party politics is everything to you, even at the expense of good policy.
 
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redspy said:
Says he, shameful Drone of the Republican party. The criticism will end when he's safely out of office. Until then it's open season. He fucked up the economy, the war on terror, international relationships and is taking the country in the wrong direction.

The real embarassment is seeing people like you defend the Bush administration without admiting any policy errors whatsoever. Party politics is everything to you, even at the expense of good policy.

Which, in my opinion, is only a duplication of how they practice their religious beliefs, too - and the goal is to remake the government in that preacher-to-the-flock image. Hence the continued repetition of the same phrases, buzzwords, Party line tape being played over and over again by the Prez's supporters.

The Party's idea of a "big tent" was dashed during the behind-the-scenes squabbles at the national convention. When moderates requested that an insertion be made into the platform outlining an understanding that not all Party members agree but are welcome, it was refused by the religious coalition who ran the platform committee. Simply sticking Arnold and McCain up there on the stage to present a pretty face to the viewing public while Allen Keyes is elsewhere bashing Cheney's daughter was quite a good example of what was really going on at that convention. And the effort of right wing religious groups to unseat every moderate during the primaries might not be trumpeted in all the media, but longtime Party members certainly know the score.
 
Robert DiMaggio said:
LMAO, Bush is one of the worst presidents in history.

The only reason Bush will win is because Kerry is such a pussy and because of this awful situation Bush has us in right now it probably does not make sense to put a little girl like Kerry in office cause most likley he would only make things worse.

damn Rob, your harsh bro. pussie, little girl. And you want him to win. I'd hate to hear what pet names you have for ME!!!! HAHAHAHAHAHA
Seriously though,, I'm not a Kerry fan but I don't see him in that same light as you. At least he is the 1st Presidential Candidate since Bush Senior to have served in the military and actually get his hands dirty (front liner, not a REMF). I do respect that. True he did protest the war afterwards but I never had a problem with someone that actually SERVED in the Vietnam war to protest it afterwards. Just those PUSSIES(USING YOUR WORD THERE BRO) that ran like mice and burned their draft cards and hid behind politial clout to stay far removed from Vietnam. They are the ones I to this day hate with a passion. I've never watched a Jane Fonda film in my life because of her ANTI American approach she took during that war. Anyway that's all I have to say about that.
 
Point Blank: I work in the Alternative Energy sector, Bush is an Oil Man, voting for Bush is voting against my livelihood. That is why I don't like Bush, if he were a threat to your means of living you too would not like him. Therefore I love all of the Bush-Bashing cause that means that they support more money for me and in the end isn't that all it's about, the money.

C.R.E.A.M - Cash Rules Everything Around Me

....But I know the real world always gets the last word
And that's why you gotta kick reality.
So don't tease me and try to say I should care.
I might as well go out for mine
'cause everybody else is going out for theirs......Sublime - New Thrash
 
redspy said:
Says he, shameful Drone of the Republican party. The criticism will end when he's safely out of office. Until then it's open season. He fucked up the economy, the war on terror, international relationships and is taking the country in the wrong direction.

The real embarassment is seeing people like you defend the Bush administration without admiting any policy errors whatsoever. Party politics is everything to you, even at the expense of good policy.


Well said.
 
maniclion said:
Point Blank: I work in the Alternative Energy sector, Bush is an Oil Man, voting for Bush is voting against my livelihood. That is why I don't like Bush, if he were a threat to your means of living you too would not like him. Therefore I love all of the Bush-Bashing cause that means that they support more money for me and in the end isn't that all it's about, the money.

C.R.E.A.M - Cash Rules Everything Around Me

....But I know the real world always gets the last word
And that's why you gotta kick reality.
So don't tease me and try to say I should care.
I might as well go out for mine
'cause everybody else is going out for theirs......Sublime - New Thrash

I have never given anyone grief for who they were voting for. The only ones that deserve grief are those that DO NOT VOTE so regardless of who you vote for, take the ole Nike phrase and...JUST DO IT!!!
PEACE
 
solid10 said:
I have worked for Motorola since 1986 and I earn a decent salary but with this economy that we are in I can't keep up. I now see more misery on the streets than I have in years, it reminds me of the '70's. I see more and more people going thru garbage for 5 cent deposit bottles. Wake up dude. I have nothing against republicans (I voted for Reagan) but both Bushes sucked.Read my lips--both Bushes suck

So did you prosper while Clinton was in office from 92-00? If so what did you do with your fortune so that you have fallen behind again? How is that Bush's fault? (41 or 43?)
 
redspy said:
The criticism will end when he's safely out of office. Until then it's open season. He fucked up the economy, the war on terror, international relationships and is taking the country in the wrong direction.

I guess you'll be criticizing until 2008, when you'll have to start on another republican. Wouldn't your energy be better spent trying to find and support a democrat that can actually get elected?
 
ouch lol
 
Well actually I was able to buy a house under Clintons administration, but now it's a bit hardert in my opinion. It's funny Clinton gets a BJ in office and they want to impeach for this while spending millions of dollars at it. Now you have this stupid idiot sending our kids to get killed for his lies and you accept this. To some of us it's not about the republicans or democrats it's just Bush.
 
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austinite said:
I guess you'll be criticizing until 2008, when you'll have to start on another republican. Wouldn't your energy be better spent trying to find and support a democrat that can actually get elected?


To some of us it's not about the republicans or democrats it's just Bush.
 
solid10 said:
Well actually I was able to buy a house under Clintons administration, but now it's a bit hardert in my opinion. It's funny Clinton gets a BJ in office and they want to impeach for this while spending millions of dollars at it. Now you have this stupid idiot sending our kids to get killed for his lies and you accept this. To some of us it's not about the republicans or democrats it's just Bush.

Well I don't have an answer for you because as you admitted it's all about your personal dislike for Bush.

Ironically this irrational dislike for him is in part what will ensure his re-election. The dems put up Kerry as an ABB candidate. Not a lot of passion for Kerry himself, just a stooge to replace W.

This dislike has also led to an ill-advised campaign strategy ("reporting for duty"), and blunders like the most recent Rather-Joe Lockhart fiasco.
 
LOL, you are funny. It's not about me, it's everyone around me. I have never seen a president so hated in my lifetime.

Do you know what may make me like him better? He can try and help Haiti out, but of course Haiti has no oil so fuck them I guess.
 
solid10 said:
LOL, you are funny. It's not about me, it's everyone around me. I have never seen a president so hated in my lifetime.

Do you know what may make me like him better? He can try and help Haiti out, but of course Haiti has no oil so fuck them I guess.

That's exactly what I said isn't it? The irrational hatred of Bush by liberals will ensure his re-election.

Bush has already helped Haiti at least once during his time in the White House (during the near-coup), and I'm sure he'll help them again.
 
austinite said:
That's exactly what I said isn't it? The irrational hatred of Bush by liberals will ensure his re-election.

Bush has already helped Haiti at least once during his time in the White House (during the near-coup), and I'm sure he'll help them again.


Isn't everything irrational if it doesn't endorse the Party manifesto? :yawn:
 
kbm8795 said:
Isn't everything irrational if it doesn't endorse the Party manifesto? :yawn:

No. If you want an example of the irrationality of which I speak, check out one of Howard Dean, Whoopi Goldberg or Al Gore's recent rants.
 
austinite said:
No. If you want an example of the irrationality of which I speak, check out one of Howard Dean, Whoopi Goldberg or Al Gore's recent rants.

I'd love to, except they've been so completely drowned out by the soothing insanity of Jerry Falwell, Jimmy Swaggart, Pat Robertson, James Kennedy, Ann Coulter, good ol' boy Rush, Rev. Moon, the self-appointed evangelical Allen Keyes and James Dobson.

Rightwingers have a very curious aversion to facing certain points of reality. If you've checked the news in the last few days, Rev. Lou Sheldon is appalled that Republican Gov. Schwarzennegger signed a hate crimes bill and launched a blistering attack on the governor. In the recent primaries in Florida and Arizona, extremists bitterly battled with moderates, using such illuminating campaign themes as...gosh...attacking one woman candidate because she wasn't married...in Florida, after a bitter Senate campaign with more baiting, the extremist won, but now that Senate seat is a tossup, according to polls. Republicans have all but lost their Senate seat in Illinois - there is little chance Keyes will perform much better after his outlandish statements. In North Carolina, Rep. Walter Jones recently said in a local newspaper interview that people opposed to his bill to politicize churches were "evil people."

Meanwhile, rightwingers might have picked on the wrong group of Americans - research conducted by a gay blogger has already contributed to the retirement decision of one extremist Party congressman in Virginia who was allegedly "outed"; another, who is now co-chair of the Bush reelection committee in California, is under fire for his own alleged gay life. I gather these reports are only the beginning.
And rumor has it that the CFO and chief administrator of the RNC is their latest suspect and target. . .the very person who may have signed off on that infamous "gay marriage and bible banning" mailing distributed now in three states.

On other fronts, moderates are distancing themselves from the party platform AND extremist candidates. Keyes has had difficulty fundraising, and state candidates have been increasingly avoiding appearances with him. The Party's failure to create an inclusive platform is likely to contribute to some other surprises come election day. Republicans tend to be pretty quiet when they don't like a candidate choice - but they speak in the voting booth. Divisive politics might be an ideologue's wet dream, but they eventually backfire.

One small thing the Right seems to forget - when you run a campaign based on fear and the need for war and safety, you don't promote the same thing at home and drive wedges between your own citizens while we are in a longterm conflict. That's an instant red flag that things aren't quite exactly the way the Party says . . .

I have not heard one speech or seen one advertisement addressing how to bring this country together to win this War. Even if the Prez is reelected, there will likely be no healing to that divide. And no party can provide the people of this nation any excuse for choosing that road. It rather destroys any illusions of moral righteousness.
 
kbm8795 said:
Meanwhile, rightwingers might have picked on the wrong group of Americans - research conducted by a gay blogger has already contributed to the retirement decision of one extremist Party congressman in Virginia who was allegedly "outed"; another, who is now co-chair of the Bush reelection committee in California, is under fire for his own alleged gay life. I gather these reports are only the beginning.
And rumor has it that the CFO and chief administrator of the RNC is their latest suspect and target. . .the very person who may have signed off on that infamous "gay marriage and bible banning" mailing distributed now in three states.

Is this supposed to be bad news for the GOP? Don't think Bush is counting on the Gay vote to win in November. We don't need folks hiding in the closet.
 
Bush won't be getting any of the 1,000,000 votes from those people who cast ballots for him in 2000. And hiding in the closet is exactly what the right wing of the Party advocates...well, except the even more extreme factions who seem to fluctuate between extermination and re-education. Rather reminiscent of Nazi Germany's infamous "experiments" or Soviet camps. Of course, the Prez has publicly claimed that he will protect their constitutional right of association - but he's a major flipflopper on those issues and has been since he was governor. Just four years ago he met with a conservative gay group and told them he came away very enlightened. After that election, he appointed several to Administration positions. Well, at least some of them are still there...and perhaps a few others who have stayed carefully hidden.

The Party apparently has lots of closet doors that some people expect to be opening and telling their story of "compassionate" conservatism. And why not? After all, is part of the Party's manifesto a constitutional amendment prohibiting these people from holding office? At least one Virginia delegate to the national convention thought so. . .so why wouldn't you want Party members hiding in the closet as long as they kept voting for the agenda? There will indeed be some interesting developments.

And that's only one group of Party members the Right has shrilly alienated. When the right wing faction of the Illinois party was finally allowed to draft Keyes, it turned into a disaster. Now even one veteran congressman is in a closely contested race, partly because of his links to Rev. Moon - you know, the self-proclaimed second messiah who owns The Washington Times.

We know whose vote the Prez is counting on, and the kinds of policies he will be forced to implement in order to placate their demands. What's good for televangelists is most certainly not likely to be viewed as what is good for the country. Bush will have a very hard time convincing this nation that we are destined to start down the road to Armaggeddon because a televangelist told him so.
 
austinite said:
Our taxes were cut 3 times, and soon it will be 4. If you can't figure out how to take advantage, or if you don't make enough money to get a decent tax cut that's not my problem.
QUOTE]


Problem is 1% of the population actually see anything from this. I may see a bit, but most of my income is under the radar so who cares?
 
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