Big Clenbutrx Deal!!!

[David Tolson]

Originally posted by MarcusMaximus
there was no need for a negative post regarding the clen. GoPro wasn't shilling anything. it was a freaking announcement of a substantial savings. If this was indeed an employee of Bulk nutrition making that sarcastic comment, then my opinion of Bulk nutrition just went into the shitter! I won't be buying from Bulk nutrition any time soon.
my posts about the endless shilling and obvious sham advertising on this board are about the "falseness " and false sincerity of the person making the posts themselves.
perhaps, rather than continuing with your studies in biochemisty, you should take a course in interpersonal skills development 101. you must not have shared your toys in kindergarden.

All right I apologize, you are right.

VPX has just really angered me recently, even more than usual. I do have many rational objections to make, including obvious marketing to teenagers, unjustifiable price markups, excessive pseudoscience in advertising, and lies in advertising, even when the health of the consumer is at risk. At some times you just have to give up and vent. But I could've expressed myself better.

 

[David Tolson]

Originally posted by MarcusMaximus
i don't believe in negative advertisements. i leave that for the politicians.
if 1fast or bulk nutrition endorses the comments that this fellow made, then it reflects poorly on the company.

Don't confuse negative advertisement and honesty. Keep in mind that BN/1fast does sell VPX products. The fact that I am willing to tell consumers what I actually think of the products rather than just pimping them should say something positive about the company, not negative. You will always get my honest opinion.

 

[David Tolson]

Originally posted by Eggs
Certainly Jodi

Perhaps you might agree though that when one has ties to a supplement manufacturer (and thus are in the biz) that they'd respond appropriately to each other? Instead of simply making silly comments about a product/advertising problem... it would be more beneficial for them to state the problems they see and then back it up with some information.

For example, the statement "Not only are the majority of the ingredients underdosed and/or useless" could have been followed up by a break down of the ingredients and the quantities needed to be effective so that we, the consumers, could be better informed.

I think you are right, the issue isn't whether or not I had the right to make that post as per forum rules but how it reflects on the company. I don't consider myself in any way an "official" representative of the stance of BN, in fact Mike is pretty much the only one there is, but I must pragmatically acknowledge that others are going to. I'm not going to censor my opinion but I can change the way I say it.

And this post was probably out of context for many, who haven't seen my many posts, on many boards, that criticize VPX prices/marketing in ways that are a little more rational. Here is one from a VPX debate on on another board from yesterday:

My reasons:

First, suggested retail prices over 40 times wholesale, with multiple competitors offering the exact same products for 5-10 times less in many cases. Yet the products still sell. There's nothing "innovative" going on here, it's all marketing to douche bags who think they get what they pay for. It pisses me off, nothing justifies markup of this kind. Nothing that involves a shred of dignity of course.

Second, deceptive advertising that is potentially harmful to the consumer. A bunch of psuedoscience added on in the ads to impress those who don't know any better.

Examples from the VPX website:

"Methyl-1-test is virtually side effect free"

"These Phamodynamic Characteristics Unlock the Mystery to Uncontrolled Growth!"

"a synthesized matrix of synergistic phytochemicals complexed amidst powerful intrinsic prohormones"

"VPX has now engineered a compound called 4-Hydroxy Nandrolone Decanoate," as if they thought of it themselves, rather than getting it from an old steroid biochemistry book everyone in the industry has.

"After entering the bloodstream, a powerful pharmacological phenomena medically known as pharmacokinetics occurs when PARADECAâ??????S multilayered phospholipids naturally break down dispersing billions of prohormone and phytochemical molecules into the body."

 

[David Tolson]

Originally posted by DrChiro
Mahuang
312mg
**

Well first it bugs me that it doesn't say how much ephedrine there is. I couldn't easily find it on the website although it may be somewhere. It's probably 25 mg but I still think stuff like that (stimulants) should be listed on the label or well known.

Caffeine Anhydrous
200mg
**

Citrus Aurantium @ 95% Synephrine
60mg
**

Yohimbine HCL
5.5mg
**

No problems here.

Vinpocentine
10mg
**

According to dose-response studies, vinpo is ineffective in healthy people until a dose hits 40 mg, maybe 30 mg.

*Percent daily values (DV%) are based on a 2000 Calorie diet.
**Daily value not established

Additional Ingredients: Proprietary blend: Sucralose, Natural Flavor & Colors in VPX's Proprietary Liposomal Matrix.

According to the website the product also contains:

12.5 mg 5-HTP

Clinical weight loss studies used 36 times this amount, you need at least 100 mg daily for this to have any significant effect at all, preferably 300 mg. IOW this ingredient is just in here for show.

22.5 mg 4-hydroxyisoleucine

You need around 300-500 mg at the least for this compound to be effective.

As you can see the only thing they put in in sufficient quantities were the CNS stimulants. Which is good from a marketing standpoint. As I posted on another board:

There are so many different factors, that it is difficult to ever isolate the fat burner you are taking as the sole cause of fat loss. People often give positive feedback based on their perception of what a fat burner should be like - I've noticed that if something makes the person feel wired, they will think it is a potent fat burner, even if it's not. This is why many companies hide large amounts of caffeine in their products, even though caffeine is not a very effective fat burner by itself. They know that people will "feel it working." And, with ephedrine and yohimbine, you will definitely "feel it." But this isn't necessarily indicative of positive results.

Personally, I recommend against combining the two, for safety reasons - ephedrine (with caffeine) is very effective, and the effectiveness will increase pretty much linearly up until about 100-150 mg, so if you aren't taking that much, then just increasing the dosage will increase your results. It is best to keep it simple, and that way you can guage exactly how you are reacting to the compound, without having to guess which one is causing a certain effect.

 

[gopro]

Originally posted by David Tolson
This product is amazing.

Not only are the majority of the ingredients underdosed and/or useless, but the price is still unjustifiably high after the deal. On top of that, you get ephedrine and yohimbine together, and there are about 100 reasons not to take this combination.

I still want to buy it though. I mean, with a product description such as this, who wouldn't?

Clenbutrx's pharmacodynamics revolve around a synergism encompassing thermogenisis, neruogenisis, thyrogenisis, insulinogenisis and antiestrogenisis.

Holy shit, I think I became retarded just reading that.

Clenbutrx has proven itself to be one of, if not THE most potent fat burner on the market, despite any wording or advertising of the product that you personally do not like.

Step lightly.

 

[David Tolson]

Originally posted by gopro
Clenbutrx has proven itself to be one of, if not THE most potent fat burner on the market, despite any wording or advertising of the product that you personally do not like.

Really - did you do a clinical study?

What makes it different than, say, Lipo 6 EF + ephedrine HCl, which provides the same ingredients, as well as other biogenic amines and forskolin, is less expensive, will be available OTC after the ban (not that I recommend use of OTC drugs off-label of course), and doesn't involve paying money to a company with such marketing tactics? I mean I'll admit Nutrex exaggerates, but it's not even in the same ballpark.

Step lightly.

I'm not sure what you mean by this, could you elaborate?

I mean no personal insult to you, of course. In fact I rarely criticize supplements/companies so harshly just because I recognize and appreciate the hard work involved in many of the processes in making a supplement. I object to many of the activities of some of the major companies, but try not to make blanket statements about them. But VPX just takes it too far, and continues to take it too far, especially where safety is involved - I hope you can see where I'm coming from.

 

[gopro]

Originally posted by David Tolson
Really - did you do a clinical study?

What makes it different than, say, Lipo 6 EF + ephedrine HCl, which provides the same ingredients, as well as other biogenic amines and forskolin, is less expensive, will be available OTC after the ban (not that I recommend use of OTC drugs off-label of course), and doesn't involve paying money to a company with such marketing tactics? I mean I'll admit Nutrex exaggerates, but it's not even in the same ballpark.



I'm not sure what you mean by this, could you elaborate?

I mean no personal insult to you, of course. In fact I rarely criticize supplements/companies so harshly just because I recognize and appreciate the hard work involved in many of the processes in making a supplement. I object to many of the activities of some of the major companies, but try not to make blanket statements about them. But VPX just takes it too far, and continues to take it too far, especially where safety is involved - I hope you can see where I'm coming from.

Perhaps its in the polylipid delivery system which so many people discount, or maybe in our raw materials, or our manufacturing process...but Clenbutrx has risen to the top of the fat burner market for one reason...it seems to outperform all the rest (we know its the most expensive, so it MUST work if people keep spending the money on it). I cannot tell you how many athletes from other companies (that sell similar fat burners) come to us for Liquid Clenbutrx. Some don't even call, they just come by our booth at the biggest shows and ask to buy Clenbutrx. When I ask them why the ydon't use their own stuff that they can get for free, they always reply, "Cause Clenbutrx works sooo much better."

When I say step lightly I mean it seems so far that your main purpose in joining this board has been to...

1- Bash VPX
2- Get beta testers for MRM

If you continually bash VPX in every thread that appears about it I will make sure you don't last long here. Contribute something useful or remain at bodybuilding.com where you can do as you please.

 

[Twin Peak]

Originally posted by gopro
....but Clenbutrx has risen to the top of the fat burner market for one reason...it seems to outperform all the rest (we know its the most expensive, so it MUST work if people keep spending the money on it)....

Eric, you and I both know that this logic is faulty -- one does not necessarily follow other.

That said, there is certainly a ton of positive anecdotal feedback on this product; and I have seen none negative.

I'd be interested in trying it, out of curiousity, but (unlike the various reps you mentioned) I wouldn't pay for it with so many other options at my fingertips.

Personally, I don't think David's purpose here is to stir up shit; its not his character. Though on occassion, it is good for anyplace to have its shit stirred.

 

[tucker01]

Originally posted by gopro
When I say step lightly I mean it seems so far that your main purpose in joining this board has been to...

1- Bash VPX
2- Get beta testers for MRM

If you continually bash VPX in every thread that appears about it I will make sure you don't last long here. Contribute something useful or remain at bodybuilding.com where you can do as you please.

Have you checked his posts?

I would say you are seeing things with blinders on. He has provided some good points in other threads.

 

[Jodi]

BTW - This was David's first post and it has nothing to do with VPX. http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=29745

 

[Twin Peak]

Jodi, Eric said VPX or MRM.

 

[tucker01]

 

[Eggs]

Thanks for quantifying those things David... facts and examples are things we can all respect

On a side note, whats wrong with David trying to get Beta Testers for MRM? I'd like to think that the more companies we have beta testing here the better... that way it gives more of the members a chance to participate. I personally would like to see tons of testing going on at IM.com

 

[Jodi]

Originally posted by Twin Peak
Jodi, Eric said VPX or MRM.

I'm tired and sick so I missed that. My bad.

 

[MarcusMaximus]

DAvid, i figured that this must be just the final volley of some battle/game between you and gopro. it seemed to come out of nowhere.

most ppl agree with your comments about the stupid claims and outrageous adverts. a thread about this wouldn't last long as the sponsors would be upset and pull their deals with the board owners. maybe we can go back to the early 90's wheN bill philips would give his ' seal of approval ' rating on specific companies....

As for deleting threads; i would rather see those dozens of shameless plugs for companies/products by people on this board deleted by Prince. the sly insidious advertising by embedded marketers on boards should be ended yet nothing is ever done about it.

jodi, sorry to hear that you are not well. you are tired and sick. i am sick and tired....

 

[Jodi]

Thanks, damn cold for the past few days. Sore throat to boot.

Oh and the word Syntrax brings a thought to my mind.

 

[Twin Peak]

Originally posted by MarcusMaximus
DAvid, i figured that this must be just the final volley of some battle/game between you and gopro. it seemed to come out of nowhere.

most ppl agree with your comments about the stupid claims and outrageous adverts. a thread about this wouldn't last long as the sponsors would be upset and pull their deals with the board owners. maybe we can go back to the early 90's wheN bill philips would give his ' seal of approval ' rating on specific companies....

As for deleting threads; i would rather see those dozens of shameless plugs for companies/products by people on this board deleted by Prince. the sly insidious advertising by embedded marketers on boards should be ended yet nothing is ever done about it.

jodi, sorry to hear that you are not well. you are tired and sick. i am sick and tired....

My, my, my, you are the conspiracy theorist. Start a thread. I guarantee that none of the sponsors pull anything, and several company reps that peruse the board would probably join in (myself included).

Also, most of the threads you are speaking of are legit posts by respected members of the board. Others are legit posts by company reps (so long as they disclose thier affiliation, etc.). There can be problems where company reps post as unbiased members, and that is shady, and fraudulent, in my opinion. Every effort should be made to flush out and expose such persons. Ultimately, Darwinism will reign, as exposing such trolls will do the company more harm then good.

So again, I state, please, discuss these important issues. We need to police our industry. But don't overgeneralize when doing so.

 

[gopro]

Originally posted by Twin Peak
Eric, you and I both know that this logic is faulty -- one does not necessarily follow other.

That said, there is certainly a ton of positive anecdotal feedback on this product; and I have seen none negative.

I'd be interested in trying it, out of curiousity, but (unlike the various reps you mentioned) I wouldn't pay for it with so many other options at my fingertips.

Personally, I don't think David's purpose here is to stir up shit; its not his character. Though on occassion, it is good for anyplace to have its shit stirred.

No, I don't think the logic is faulty at all. If I try a product of ANY kind that is more expensive than others, but is supposed to be better, it better live up to it or I will never purchase it again, opting for a cheaper product that works similarly.

Clenbutrx is RARELY advertised yet remained as one of the top selling products on the market, with most feeling it is the best fat burner out there. I have seen this for years already, long before I started with VPX. Products that don't "produce" do not resell. Products that don't resell disappear. Clenbutrx has remained on or near the top for many many years now for one reason...it WORKS amazingly well.

AS far as David's purpose here, I have seen his kind before. He goes by a different name over at bbing.com and posts the same VPX bashes over there. In fact, he copied and pasted one of his responses over there and put it up over here.

I don't mind him being here, especially if he contributes good info, but if he thinks he will have the opportunity to bash VPX every chance he gets he has another thing coming.

We all know his feelings now, so he can move onto other business.

 

[Twin Peak]

Eric, so you have never heard of Cell-Tech?

Please don't tell me you think its sales data proves that it is the best creatine product on the market.

That is my only point, one does not inextricably follow the next.

 

[gopro]

Originally posted by Twin Peak
Eric, so you have never heard of Cell-Tech?

Please don't tell me you think its sales data proves that it is the best creatine product on the market.

That is my only point, one does not inextricably follow the next.

However, despite what people say, there is nothing wrong with Cell Tech. Forget about how its advertised. It contains quality creatine, simple sugars, and ALA...a very effective mix for people looking to get stronger and put on weight quickly. Its market is really teens, athletes, and ectomorphs that have trouble adding size. There is nothing inherently wrong with Cell Tech and its not a scam product. It does the job it was intended to do.

 

[Var]

Originally posted by gopro
If you continually bash VPX in every thread that appears about it I will make sure you don't last long here. Contribute something useful or remain at bodybuilding.com where you can do as you please.

I sure as hell hope that this isnt the route my favorite bodybuilding site is taking. This has always been an open environment for people to say whats on their minds and provide "honest" feedback. If people are going to get banned (or whatever it is you're implying) when they go against you, your current employer, or your personal beliefs...this is a truly sad situation.

 

[Twin Peak]

See that is point, it doesn't do the job it is advertized to do.

That aside, for the price, its a rip-off, yet it still sells off the chart, which proves my point that sales volume does not necessarily equate to effectiveness.

 

[craig777]

You know what I find interesting, is that when VPX is dragged through the mud and gopro defends them he is chastised thoroughly for it.

If Avant was under attack does anyone think that the Avant people here wouldn't immediately form a lynching party.

Why is it OK for some and not for others.

Just my observation, and I am not blaming the Avant people just using that as an example



This whole thread was started trying to do everyone a favor, I sometimes wonder why gopro continues to do it. Now instead of the intended purpose everyone comes here to see the fighting.

 

[Twin Peak]

Have I been fighting?

I see nothing wrong with this thread, or Eric's intent with it.

And do you seriously think Avant has not "been attacked?"

 

[Dale Mabry]

Originally posted by gopro
However, despite what people say, there is nothing wrong with Cell Tech. Forget about how its advertised. It contains quality creatine, simple sugars, and ALA...a very effective mix for people looking to get stronger and put on weight quickly. Its market is really teens, athletes, and ectomorphs that have trouble adding size. There is nothing inherently wrong with Cell Tech and its not a scam product. It does the job it was intended to do.

No one was saying Celltech is a scam. The point is that there are 100 other products out there that have the EXACT same ingredients in it. Sure it is probably the best selling one, but what TP is getting at is that does not necessarily translate to it being the best. The reason it sells better is because:

A)Heavy, misleading advertising
Showing geared up pros immeidiately after an accident and the after a heavy cycle in every single mag for 6 pages.

B)It costs more.
If company A sells a product at 3 times the amount of company B, company B has to sell 3 times as much of the product to break even with company A.


The only logical way to say that Company A's product is better than Company B's product, is to run a clinical trial and measure the pertinent data (Not marketing data). I have yet to see ANY company put forth ANY evidence from a clinical trial using GCP showing that they are superior to another. This is a very expensive process that many companies cannot afford. This is why I really believe the industry NEEDS regulation. On the one end it would prolly drive prices high, but you would have alot less scammers out there. I like seeing the little "beta" pilot trials, they are pretty neat, but for any of them to hold water you would need to have an equal amount of placebo participants to compare the results to and come to an informed conclusion.

 

[David Tolson]

Originally posted by gopro
Perhaps its in the polylipid delivery system which so many people discount, or maybe in our raw materials, or our manufacturing process...

Polylipid delivery system? None of those actives are even fat-soluble (except maybe vinpo, don't know about that one).

Raw materials - you mean the yohimbine HCl that comes from VPX is molecularly different from the yohimbine of 99%+ purity that I buy elsewhere?

Come on man. This is what I am talking about when I say pseudoscience.

but Clenbutrx has risen to the top of the fat burner market for one reason...it seems to outperform all the rest (we know its the most expensive, so it MUST work if people keep spending the money on it).

"Seems to." We have different outlooks, and it's not even going to be worth arguing about. You seem to think personal feedback on supplements indicates what does and doesn't work. This is a very good attitude to promote if a supplement has weaky scientific basis but is marketed well enough that people will get a good placebo effect. Do I need to explain how strong the placebo effect is? Strong enough that you can give someone methamphetamine, and tell them it is a sedative, and 9 times out of 10 they will fall asleep; strong enough that you can give someone a trainquilizer and tell them it is a stimulant and the opposite will happen, strong enough that it can even change the outcome of an illness. Strong enough that there are still a large number of people out there who think glutamine is highly effective. If you market something well enough, even if the ingredients are inert, it will generate loads of positive feedback. It is unfortunate, that that is human nature. Do you really need a social psychology lesson here?

So here are the priorities I use I evaluate a supplement. If information isn't available I go on to the next option.

1. Meta-analyses of double-blind, placebo-controlled clinical studies published in peer-reviewed journals.
2. Double-blind, placebo-controlled clinical studies published in peer-reviewed journals.
3. Other placebo-controlled studies in humans.
4. Good animal and in vitro data.
5. Theoretical support based on known mechanisms.
6. Open studies.
7. User feedback.

Now you can choose to do two things. You can either listen to real science or you can discount it. Real science is how we know how certain drugs work and why you shouldn't combine them with other drugs, what the dangers are, and so on. It's how we know that many supplements/drugs do not fulfill their claims, even when there was a large amount of positive feedback. You often can't tell some things, like if your liver is failing, until it is too late. Which is why we don't rely solely on "feedback" when making claims about supplements.

I cannot tell you how many athletes from other companies (that sell similar fat burners) come to us for Liquid Clenbutrx. Some don't even call, they just come by our booth at the biggest shows and ask to buy Clenbutrx. When I ask them why the ydon't use their own stuff that they can get for free, they always reply, "Cause Clenbutrx works sooo much better."

This is the same stuff you hear from every supplement company. Anyone can say this. It means absolutely nothing.

When I say step lightly I mean it seems so far that your main purpose in joining this board has been to...

1- Bash VPX
2- Get beta testers for MRM

If you continually bash VPX in every thread that appears about it I will make sure you don't last long here. Contribute something useful or remain at bodybuilding.com where you can do as you please.

Bodybuilding.com is definitely not a place where you can do as you please. But that's beside the point. I am free to express my opinion. I really, really doubt there is anything you can do about me talking bad about VPX, as long as I am rational about it. I am, as you say, "contributing something useful."

 

[Dale Mabry]

Originally posted by craig777
You know what I find interesting, is that when VPX is dragged through the mud and gopro defends them he is chastised thoroughly for it.

If Avant was under attack does anyone think that the Avant people here wouldn't immediately form a lynching party.

Why is it OK for some and not for others.

Just my observation, and I am not blaming the Avant people just using that as an example



This whole thread was started trying to do everyone a favor, I sometimes wonder why gopro continues to do it. Now instead of the intended purpose everyone comes here to see the fighting.

At issue here is not defending a company. At issue here is stating that a product is superior to another without any credible evidence. I think everyone here knows GP works for VPX, I would hope he would defend them, but with a little more science and a little less spin.

 

[David Tolson]

Originally posted by gopro
Products that don't "produce" do not resell.

I think my glutamine example disproves this.

 

[David Tolson]

Originally posted by gopro
However, despite what people say, there is nothing wrong with Cell Tech. Forget about how its advertised. It contains quality creatine, simple sugars, and ALA...a very effective mix for people looking to get stronger and put on weight quickly. Its market is really teens, athletes, and ectomorphs that have trouble adding size. There is nothing inherently wrong with Cell Tech and its not a scam product. It does the job it was intended to do.

I agree, sugar and creatine works. Something that has been known for quite some time. But you are ignoring some other aspects of the equation here:

*Is that advertising deceptive? Yes, incredibly so.
*Is it unjustifiably expensive? Yes. You can homebrew it for 1/3rd the price.

And these are the three fundamentals I think should go into a supplement buying decision: how good the product actually is, what you think of the company and their marketing tactics, and price.

 

[David Tolson]

Originally posted by craig777
You know what I find interesting, is that when VPX is dragged through the mud and gopro defends them he is chastised thoroughly for it.

I am really trying to avoid personal attacks, although you can never fully dissociate the message from the sender.