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uh okay, caps lock broken? you know, William Llewllyn has a Q & A article in m&d magazine. im sure you could express your concerns with him on this subject.

I think he may have a little bit of experience in the field, or know something about steroids. maybe.

William Llewellyn is a world-renowned foremost authority on anabolic substances and its effects on muscular performance. An accomplished research scientist, author, publisher, inventor, columnist, and company CEO in the field of sports nutrition and anabolic substances, Llewellyn has been featured in ESPN Magazine, Washington Post, Fox News Channel, ESPN Television, NPR News, ESPN Radio and other national and regional TV / Radio news programs.
In addition to writing the Anabolics books, Llewellyn also publishes Body of Science Magazine, a quarterly publication dedicated to the "understanding of sports enhancement." He writes a monthly column for Muscular Development, and has written numerous articles for other bodybuilding publications including Ironman Magazine, Exercise for Men Only, and Natural Muscle.​

During his fifteen years of anabolic research,(maybe he has some years behind him, i dont know though, only 15?) Llewellyn has made several important scientific discoveries. His latest discovery of arachidonic acid has been patented for its anabolic properties and its "use as a method of increasing skeletal muscle mass."​

I mean, he has only released 9 big ass books on anabolics steroids. soon to be a 10th. (I havn't read the tenth edition yet, so maybe some things have changed like his pct protocol?)

he also has a Q & A section in muscular development, so im sure you could discuss your expertise with him, in a battle of wits and knowledge.

I only know what experts on the subject tell me, and this particular section, it was actually dealing with real world aas usage, which is very difficult to find. it's hard to believe you read the section after you statements. but who knows?

btw, it was copied & pasted directly from anabolics 9th eidition. but me, I know nothing, only what experts say. bill is an expert, and you obviously are more of an expert, so now im confused.

do you have a book I can read bro? I'd like to get educated more.
 
Last edited:
sorry dude, I know its not cool on these forums, I could get banned, and I really don't care.......YOU sound like a whiny bitch, shut up. I read, I write and I learn.......NEVER BELIEVE EVERYTHING YOU READ!!!! Freud came out with concepts that have been replaced, Darwin was onto so much, but was clueless and guessed at the microbiology involved. There are always different perspectives.....anyway I feel like I am talking to a chick man, seriously, your sarcasm is laughable at most. I leave caps on when I f ing feel like it, take it how you want to. You are most likely really young, that i give you a break on......there is only one person that has anything to teach on these boards, datbtrue, and I dont even think he is still moding. I have worked with people who discovered some of these peptides in Palo Alto some years back, and to them its a guessing game and nothing is ever, EVER one hundred percent....even IQ tests are left brain dominant tests and have errors in the psychology and assumptions, and YOU sound like you assume toooooo f ing much!
The original fruit fly experiment, that changed the way we look at genetics, and we use the pairing for humans today from that research...in fact eugenics, something Bill Gates knows a lot about, and the very things that started world war 2 was based on these experiments. The researcher was a failed everything, and got no credit because he didn't have a PhD to back it up, now of course he is respected for his observations. Any one of us are capable of amazing observation if we open, look and deduct....you aren't and its typical, you need to though, its now we get better. NO ONE IS THE SAME, NO ONE AGENT REACTS THE SAME IN EACH PERSONS PHYSIOLOGY

YOU DON'T KNOW EVERYTHING AND NOW YOU LOOK LIKE A WHINY BITCH

What were clomid, hcg, nolva and tamox designed for? FEMALE FERTILITY
How effective are they as a whole? About 50 percent
Have we found the perfect drug for promoting sperm genesis and ovulation? NO
 
Last edited:
uh, okay. do you need a hug? group hug for barrym ((((((((((barrym))))))))))))

anyhow, this was just another method for using hcg that is practiced. they may not know everything, but I do believe they know something about getting mens hpta functioning back to normal, after using supraphysiological dosages of multiple compounds for 12+ weeks.

with that being said, there are multiple methods preferred for hcg usage. on cycle the whole time, on cycle the last few weeks, during pct, ect.

normally the dosages i've seen for these other common methods are around 250-300iu's ever other day.

So I can understand why barrym is so upset at the data Llewellyn presented, it is very unconventional. but, it was published, and it works, on a number of patients. It may not be the gold standard of pct, but i dont discredit it either.

best bet would be for a person new to hcg usage, to try various methods they see, and find which one they most prefer.
 
barrym said:
sorry dude, I know its not cool on these forums, I could get banned, and I really don't care.......YOU sound like a whiny bitch, shut up. I read, I write and I learn.......NEVER BELIEVE EVERYTHING YOU READ!!!! Freud came out with concepts that have been replaced, Darwin was onto so much, but was clueless and guessed at the microbiology involved. There are always different perspectives.....anyway I feel like I am talking to a chick man, seriously, your sarcasm is laughable at most. I leave caps on when I f ing feel like it, take it how you want to. You are most likely really young, that i give you a break on......there is only one person that has anything to teach on these boards, datbtrue, and I dont even think he is still moding. I have worked with people who discovered some of these peptides in Palo Alto some years back, and to them its a guessing game and nothing is ever, EVER one hundred percent....even IQ tests are left brain dominant tests and have errors in the psychology and assumptions, and YOU sound like you assume toooooo f ing much!
The original fruit fly experiment, that changed the way we look at genetics, and we use the pairing for humans today from that research...in fact eugenics, something Bill Gates knows a lot about, and the very things that started world war 2 was based on these experiments. The researcher was a failed everything, and got no credit because he didn't have a PhD to back it up, now of course he is respected for his observations. Any one of us are capable of amazing observation if we open, look and deduct....you aren't and its typical, you need to though, its now we get better. NO ONE IS THE SAME, NO ONE AGENT REACTS THE SAME IN EACH PERSONS PHYSIOLOGY

YOU DON'T KNOW EVERYTHING AND NOW YOU LOOK LIKE A WHINY BITCH

What were clomid, hcg, nolva and tamox designed for? FEMALE FERTILITY
How effective are they as a whole? About 50 percent
Have we found the perfect drug for promoting sperm genesis and ovulation? NO
Click to expand...


Come on man, no need to name call - both of you.

You both make valid points but this is an internet forum and people are going to disagree.

Your claims that nolva is for female fertility are inncorrect, it is for breast cancer.

...and yes the perfect drug(s) has/have been found for ovulation. Why do you think IVF is so successful? Dr's can control the menstrul cycle and ovulation to proceed with the procedure. As for the male factor, clomid, hcg and hmg have been used with great success.

I'm not taking sides here and I would STRONGLY question anything from Bill Llewellyn's mouth.
 
Interesting. I didn't think I called anyone any names? well, I did call him an expert, but I was being sarcastic. I can agree to disagree.

studies are to be used as a reference point. there are studies to prove, disprove different ideas for lots of things. I totally understand this.
 
CT said:
Come on man, no need to name call - both of you.

You both make valid points but this is an internet forum and people are going to disagree.

Your claims that nolva is for female fertility are inncorrect, it is for breast cancer.

...and yes the perfect drug(s) has/have been found for ovulation. Why do you think IVF is so successful? Dr's can control the menstrul cycle and ovulation to proceed with the procedure. As for the male factor, clomid, hcg and hmg have been used with great success.

I'm not taking sides here and I would STRONGLY question anything from Bill Llewellyn's mouth.
Click to expand...



Nolvadex and Fertility: Discovery and Results

Even though Nolvadex was designed as a treatment for breast cancer, it has surpassed its original goal and can help women get past problems with conception. Why? It all boils down to the hormones included in the pill. Those hormones trigger a release of eggs from the ovaries, in some cases (in conjunction with follicle stimulating hormones, for example) keeping the estrogen levels lower than other [COLOR=#0000cc !important][COLOR=#0000cc !important]fertility [COLOR=#0000cc !important]treatments[/COLOR][/COLOR][/COLOR] would.
The link between Nolvadex and fertility came about as an experiment. Researcher and Professor Kutluk Oktay wanted to preserve the fertility in the patients who developed breast cancer while of childbearing age. By using the drug and working with a tight schedule, more eggs could be released, retrieved, and saved for later use. In other cases, Nolvadex could be used after the cancer was treated to increase a woman's chances of conceiving naturally by stimulating the release of eggs from the ovaries.
Oktay's suspicions were correct.
How the Experiment was Conducted

Oktay took two groups of women and subdivided them into three groups:
  • Group who chose to use in-vitro-fertilization (control group)
    • Tamoxifen alone
    • Tamoxifen with a low dose of follicle stimulating hormone (FSH)
    • Letrozole (Femara) with a low dose of follicle stimulating hormone
  • Group who chose not to use in-vitro-fertilization
    • Tamoxifen alone
    • Tamoxifen with a low dose of follicle stimulating hormone (FSH)
    • Letrozole (Femara) with a low dose of follicle stimulating hormone
They went through a total of thirty-three ovarian stimulation cycles before analyzing the results.
Results:
  • Tamoxifen/FSH and Letrozole/FSH groups did better than the ones with Tamoxifen alone. Both groups resulted in more retrievable, mature eggs, and more fertilized ones than the Tamoxifen (Nolvadex only) group.
  • One of the concerns when a breast cancer patient uses IVF or other form of fertility treatment that increases estrogen formation is the recurrence of the cancer. Raised estrogen levels can increase the likelihood that breast cancer will come back.
Oktay followed up with his patients after about 1.5 years to determine if any group had more of a recurrence than others. The in-vitro patients and the control group each had three cases where the cancer came back. When they tested the estrogen levels of the groups, they found that the Tamoxifen-only group had higher levels than the others. Because of that, the combined methods with FSH would be preferred.


i dont post without research, the article goes on
 
jbryand101b said:
uh okay, caps lock broken? you know, William Llewllyn has a Q & A article in m&d magazine. im sure you could express your concerns with him on this subject.

I think he may have a little bit of experience in the field, or know something about steroids. maybe.

William Llewellyn is a world-renowned foremost authority on anabolic substances and its effects on muscular performance. An accomplished research scientist, author, publisher, inventor, columnist, and company CEO in the field of sports nutrition and anabolic substances, Llewellyn has been featured in ESPN Magazine, Washington Post, Fox News Channel, ESPN Television, NPR News, ESPN Radio and other national and regional TV / Radio news programs.
In addition to writing the Anabolics books, Llewellyn also publishes Body of Science Magazine, a quarterly publication dedicated to the "understanding of sports enhancement." He writes a monthly column for Muscular Development, and has written numerous articles for other bodybuilding publications including Ironman Magazine, Exercise for Men Only, and Natural Muscle.​

During his fifteen years of anabolic research,(maybe he has some years behind him, i dont know though, only 15?) Llewellyn has made several important scientific discoveries. His latest discovery of arachidonic acid has been patented for its anabolic properties and its "use as a method of increasing skeletal muscle mass."​

I mean, he has only released 9 big ass books on anabolics steroids. soon to be a 10th. (I havn't read the tenth edition yet, so maybe some things have changed like his pct protocol?)

he also has a Q & A section in muscular development, so im sure you could discuss your expertise with him, in a battle of wits and knowledge.

I only know what experts on the subject tell me, and this particular section, it was actually dealing with real world aas usage, which is very difficult to find. it's hard to believe you read the section after you statements. but who knows?

btw, it was copied & pasted directly from anabolics 9th eidition. but me, I know nothing, only what experts say. bill is an expert, and you obviously are more of an expert, so now im confused.

do you have a book I can read bro? I'd like to get educated more.
Click to expand...


I dont need validation from anyone here, all there are, are opinions. whether or not I am an expert, is only to the degree which I study and research. when you stand behind one man, eventually, you are alone, historically proven. I have never heard anything true other that from datbtrue, over the years. dat pulls up significant data, demonstrates it, and is nice about it.....he is an expert because he is willing to look at all scientific data.

dat came up with some of his own conslusion, with respect to science. but the years he spent answering stupid questions, then giving amazing and grounded answers says he cares.

well i really dont care about what you know, what you do, so I would not go through the painful process of giving you graphs etc..when I see a bitch, i call a bitch. its not names, name calling, you are a bitch, and your not very intelligent either.

you sound like you need the last word, but my last word "i dont like your methods of communication nor thinking, and I will not respond to you tactics for attention"....you need to be right, i need to know the truth, big difference
 
barrym said:
Nolvadex and Fertility: Discovery and Results

Even though Nolvadex was designed as a treatment for breast cancer, it has surpassed its original goal and can help women get past problems with conception. Why? It all boils down to the hormones included in the pill. Those hormones trigger a release of eggs from the ovaries, in some cases (in conjunction with follicle stimulating hormones, for example) keeping the estrogen levels lower than other [COLOR=#0000cc !important][COLOR=#0000cc !important]fertility [COLOR=#0000cc !important]treatments[/COLOR][/COLOR][/COLOR] would.
The link between Nolvadex and fertility came about as an experiment. Researcher and Professor Kutluk Oktay wanted to preserve the fertility in the patients who developed breast cancer while of childbearing age. By using the drug and working with a tight schedule, more eggs could be released, retrieved, and saved for later use. In other cases, Nolvadex could be used after the cancer was treated to increase a woman's chances of conceiving naturally by stimulating the release of eggs from the ovaries.
Oktay's suspicions were correct.
How the Experiment was Conducted


Oktay took two groups of women and subdivided them into three groups:
  • Group who chose to use in-vitro-fertilization (control group)
    • Tamoxifen alone
    • Tamoxifen with a low dose of follicle stimulating hormone (FSH)
    • Letrozole (Femara) with a low dose of follicle stimulating hormone
  • Group who chose not to use in-vitro-fertilization
    • Tamoxifen alone
    • Tamoxifen with a low dose of follicle stimulating hormone (FSH)
    • Letrozole (Femara) with a low dose of follicle stimulating hormone
They went through a total of thirty-three ovarian stimulation cycles before analyzing the results.

Results:
  • Tamoxifen/FSH and Letrozole/FSH groups did better than the ones with Tamoxifen alone. Both groups resulted in more retrievable, mature eggs, and more fertilized ones than the Tamoxifen (Nolvadex only) group.
  • One of the concerns when a breast cancer patient uses IVF or other form of fertility treatment that increases estrogen formation is the recurrence of the cancer. Raised estrogen levels can increase the likelihood that breast cancer will come back.
Oktay followed up with his patients after about 1.5 years to determine if any group had more of a recurrence than others. The in-vitro patients and the control group each had three cases where the cancer came back. When they tested the estrogen levels of the groups, they found that the Tamoxifen-only group had higher levels than the others. Because of that, the combined methods with FSH would be preferred.


i dont post without research, the article goes on
Click to expand...


I stand corrected. Nice post.
 
jbryand101b said:
Interesting. I didn't think I called anyone any names? well, I did call him an expert, but I was being sarcastic. I can agree to disagree.

studies are to be used as a reference point. there are studies to prove, disprove different ideas for lots of things. I totally understand this.
Click to expand...


argue with another member, on another forum
this is quoted from another "non expert"


researchstop.....from professional muscle

"Research shows no affect on LH by Nolva. Bill Llewellyn is wrong, again. To his credit he as finally, after 9 years, changed his stance on using Nolva."



again i would pull up the research, if i gave a shit, but i dont, i am just sourcing information on various sites like "all non experts" find it on your own
 
CT said:
I stand corrected. Nice post.
Click to expand...


thank you for that, but i was also incorrect, i said that nolva was designed for this purpose, it is being used for this, now.

it takes a big man to say that though, and the point here is that new science is coming out all the time. Peptides are the only way to get into the gene anatomy, so all of these drugs will be replaced one day by peptides and ancillaries.....we will all be wrong one day, so is "right"what is now? or the most natural law based foundation. its why there is so much stress on which schedule to classify peptides ? are they drugs? or are they supportive to that which is naturally occuring? research has been done on lr3igf-2....that bb's are saying "sucks" but in fact it also has a pronounced affect on leydig cell stimulation

"WE ARE ALL WRONG, BUT WE SEEK THE TRUTH"
 
barrym said:
thank you for that, but i was also incorrect, i said that nolva was designed for this purpose, it is being used for this, now.

it takes a big man to say that though, and the point here is that new science is coming out all the time. Peptides are the only way to get into the gene anatomy, so all of these drugs will be replaced one day by peptides and ancillaries.....we will all be wrong one day, so is "right"what is now? or the most natural law based foundation. its why there is so much stress on which schedule to classify peptides ? are they drugs? or are they supportive to that which is naturally occuring? research has been done on lr3igf-2....that bb's are saying "sucks" but in fact it also has a pronounced affect on leydig cell stimulation

"WE ARE ALL WRONG, BUT WE SEEK THE TRUTH"
Click to expand...

I think that some people have the idea that a MOD should and does know everything in the field of which they MOD. I take a totally different stance as I am far from an expert but I know much more than the average Joe. If there is something in which I don't know I don't post. If I feel as if I can help I will, but I enjoy learning new things as well. A study like the one you posted is extremely helpful and validates your post.

Infertility in females has changed dramatically in the past 15 years or so. The success rates have increased dramatically. I was personally involved with these issues for years and of ALL of the drugs that were prescribed or mentioned at the time were not nolva. It wasn't even mentioned.

Seriously, very good post.
 
I'm not even sure why he is posting data based information on nolva.
I understand on the first page there was some dabate among some other members concerning nolva.

but i honestly dont know what it has to do with anything. I have used both nolva & clomid for pct purposes.
I prefer clomid over nolva, as for me, I feel it works better. I do have to admit, I am a little confused as to what the debate is.
 
jbryand101b said:
I'm not even sure why he is posting data based information on nolva.
I understand on the first page there was some dabate among some other members concerning nolva.

but i honestly dont know what it has to do with anything. I have used both nolva & clomid for pct purposes.
I prefer clomid over nolva, as for me, I feel it works better. I do have to admit, I am a little confused as to what the debate is.
Click to expand...

Kinda sums it up, actually. Clomid works for me, so I use it. No Gyno issues, so Nolva never appealed to me for any other reasons. Personally, if I had Gyno problems, I'd look to Letro first. I've used Clomid for a very long time, and always with good results. I guess my personal experience is all I can really offer, other than the fact that most of the lifters I know use Clomid for Pct, and have the same results as I do. If someone prefers Nolva, and it works for you, go for it.
 
CT said:
I'm not taking sides here and I would STRONGLY question anything from Bill Llewellyn's mouth.
Click to expand...

Also Bigcat. I've heard reports he's never done a single cycle and is supposedly a steroid expert???:roflmao:
 
bigrene said:
I started the nolva with hcg in case anyone was wondering why Ive been on nolva for a month and clomid 19 days. Next time I do hcg will be during cycle but I didnt so I did it at end and from what I heard is hcg and clomid doesnt go together.Also I was on pretty long so I kind of want to make sure i GET SUFFICIENT PCT.
Click to expand...

My pct protocol looks like yours except i don't understand why you did begin the clomid a month after since it has a faster action than nolva,but after a while, the rising of natural T level will seem to stale on Clomid while it gradually increase on nolva...
 
bigrene said:
Currently on pct which includes nolva and clomid.This is my first time taking these two well ever since I started clomid Ive been seeing trails like Im tripping,this happens for the first couple minutes after I wake up in the middle of the night and also get foggy vision sometimes. Also gives me a diiferent feel of sight hard to explain but has anyone experienced any this with clomid?I ve read it can cause irreversible loss of sight so Im debating whether to continue with the just nolva been on clomid 19 days 50mg ed/ nolva 20mg ed for 32days so far.
Click to expand...


Keep them both on hand, it also depends on which type of AAS you are using (prog or estro inducing). I suggest going onto napsgear.net and readilng up on it. good luck.....I AM OUT OF THIS POST 4G
 
unfortunately all androgens bind to the progestin receptor. the nature of their structure is what allows them to do so.

so if you go by this, one should never use nolva with steroids. but this isn't the case. though, i havn't had any gyno symptoms since I stopped using nolva and started using clomid. this is just anecdotal.
 
jbryand101b said:
unfortunately all androgens bind to the progestin receptor. the nature of their structure is what allows them to do so.

so if you go by this, one should never use nolva with steroids. but this isn't the case. though, i havn't had any gyno symptoms since I stopped using nolva and started using clomid. this is just anecdotal.
Click to expand...

from napsgear.net

"It's also important to note that Nolvadex doesn't reduce estrogen throughout the body, and that those athletes looking to minimize overall water retention and bloat should look towards true estrogen blockers such as Anastrozole or Exemestane. Bodybuilders often use Nolvadex in doses of 25-75mgs a day throughout cycle duration where gyno is a concern. Those looking to incorporate Nolvadex into their PCT program will typically run the substance at similar doses for 4-6 upon the discontinued use of all steroids. Users may also choose to add proviron and/or HCG to their PCT protocol."


Again here you go with blanket statements, well this is why some bind less, some more, and why there are a shit load of receptors. AAS such as Equipoise (originally Equipose) and Anavar or gp's oxan along with hgh can keep a long long cycle with little to no sides, and at the same time be mildly androgenic. But this has to be earned by hard work, and a pile of test, deca, dbol and winstrol bottles in the past. proviron being an example of active androgen receptor docking, little anabolic effect...creating a harder sort of look

I think this is more what you are looking for, below, napsgear quote from porviron page

"GP Proviron by Geneza Pharmaceuticals is an oral steroid containing 25mg of the hormone Mesterolone per tablet.

Proviron, as it is also called, has become a very popular substance among bodybuilders for several different reasons. While this steroid is not very anabolic, it is highly androgenic. Because of this, GP Proviron is capable of giving the muscles a harder, more defined look. The drug is also a noted estrogen blocker. It can be used in conjunction with steroids that aromatize in order to help prevent estrogen related side effects.

Another positive effect of the drug is that it greatly reduces SHBG in the body. This frees up other hormones being used and makes them much more effective. Its high androgenic properties make it a very good substance for maintaining or retaining ones sex drive. This also makes the drug a very good choice to add into one's PCT program. Here, GP Proviron will aid in keeping androgen levels high while allowing the body's own natural testosterone production to come back.

Even though it's an oral, Proviron is considered to be very mild on the liver, and thus, liver damage is not a concern while using this substance. Bodybuilders often incorporate this drug into all of their cycles, and also into their PCT programs. When stacked with testosterone, it will aid in blocking estrogen while increasing androgen, and also allowing the testosterone to be more abundant in the body. With this wide range of benefits associated with its addition to the cycle, it's no wonder that this drug has gained so much popularity."
 
Nolvadex and Fertility - LoveToKnow Pregnancy



How the Experiment was Conducted

Oktay took two groups of women and subdivided them into three groups:
  • Group who chose to use in-vitro-fertilization (control group)
    • Tamoxifen alone
    • Tamoxifen with a low dose of follicle stimulating hormone (FSH)
    • Letrozole (Femara) with a low dose of follicle stimulating hormone
  • Group who chose not to use in-vitro-fertilization
    • Tamoxifen alone
    • Tamoxifen with a low dose of follicle stimulating hormone (FSH)
    • Letrozole (Femara) with a low dose of follicle stimulating hormone
They went through a total of thirty-three ovarian stimulation cycles before analyzing the results.
Results:
  • Tamoxifen/FSH and Letrozole/FSH groups did better than the ones with Tamoxifen alone. Both groups resulted in more retrievable, mature eggs, and more fertilized ones than the Tamoxifen (Nolvadex only) group.
  • One of the concerns when a breast cancer patient uses IVF or other form of fertility treatment that increases estrogen formation is the recurrence of the cancer. Raised estrogen levels can increase the likelihood that breast cancer will come back.
Oktay followed up with his patients after about 1.5 years to determine if any group had more of a recurrence than others. The in-vitro patients and the control group each had three cases where the cancer came back. When they tested the estrogen levels of the groups, they found that the Tamoxifen-only group had higher levels than the others. Because of that, the combined methods with FSH would be preferred.

This tells us that it is closer to our natural pulse when we take nolva in conjunction with letrozole.
 
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