Does prayer have any effect?

[Thee_One]

My wife and I deal w this too, we both worked at a seventh day Adventist hospital for the last 5 years. Shes an RN and I'm an exercise physiologist. She's a little more obliging than I am though. I wore my atheist atom pin on my lab coat. You can imagine what the administration thought of this. And in Adventist health, every single administrator is SDA. I was laid off last August, go figure.

So the truth behind the thread shows itself.

You're angry about being laid off, and so you came here to bash
people for their beliefs like a little kid throwing a tantrum?

wow.

 

[Thee_One]

^^ lol^^ I also agree with exphysiologist88. I also watched zeitgeist and never looked at religion the same again, especially when they showed how the story of Jesus represents the sun's movements. Im not "religious" but I do believe in a "power" that keeps the earth in a homeostatis (if that makes sense?) kinda like our bodies after a cycle. point is: externally prayers dont do shit, internally (mentally) they can mean everything. As for me, I stopped believing in God and the Devil when somebody pointed out to me that Good is God with an extra O and Evil is Devil with a D in front. (D)evil Go(O)d. Good and evil the story of life

A thrown together internet movie changed your life that much?

Wow.


Maybe you guys should actually try reading some of the texts which the religions you are disputing are actually based upon.

I'm not saying go read a bible and believe everything in there.

However, every text describing human experience has some truth in it.

Read between the lines.

 

[exphys88]

So the truth behind the thread shows itself.

You're angry about being laid off, and so you came here to bash
people for their beliefs like a little kid throwing a tantrum?

wow.

I was laid off for financial reasons. I assure you that I've been convinced of this ever since taking high school biology, have you ever taken a biology class?

And, I'm willing to bet that I know the bible better than most Christians.

I merely posted two scientific studies that demonstrate that prayer has no effect on healing others.

 

[exphys88]

A thrown together internet movie changed your life that much?

Wow.


Maybe you guys should actually try reading some of the texts which the religions you are disputing are actually based upon.

I'm not saying go read a bible and believe everything in there.

However, every text describing human experience has some truth in it.

Read between the lines.

And, if the bible were the word of god, then there would be no flaws, yet there are many stories that can easily be proven to be false.

 

[exphys88]

Why don't you post whatever evidence that convinced you that prayer works? Surely, you have some studies that refute it, or you wouldn't be here criticizing someone for posting scientific studies!

 

[bandaidwoman]

And, if the bible were the word of god, then there would be no flaws, yet there are many stories that can easily be proven to be false.

I tell my black christians that nowhere in the bible is slavery wrong. It is condoned in the old testament and permitted in the new. In fact, you can say that of all Abrahamic religions. The confederates had morality ( as defined by the bible) on their side when they opposed abolishing slavery...

<< 1 Timothy 6:1 >>
All who are under the yoke of slavery should consider their masters worthy of full respect, so that God's name and our teaching may not be slandered.

yeah, the morality of the bible is immpeccable..... ( don't worry it's not just the christians, for the Jews I see the old testament god giving the jews the promised land and when they showed up...oops it was occupied so he tells them to slaugther every man, woman and child........)

 

[Thee_One]

I was laid off for financial reasons. I assure you that I've been convinced of this ever since taking high school biology, have you ever taken a biology class?

And, I'm willing to bet that I know the bible better than most Christians.

I merely posted two scientific studies that demonstrate that prayer has no effect on healing others.

Took Biology in HS.
And then 2 semesters in College.

 

[Thee_One]

And, if the bible were the word of god, then there would be no flaws, yet there are many stories that can easily be proven to be false.

I'm not saying the bible is the "Word of God".

There are no words of "God". Except those people have discerned through real soul searching.

Words are nothing more than a sound produced from air being manipulated by your throat muscles, which humans have attached meanings in their own minds. Nothing more than Classic Conditioning.

Some people choose to write down their experiences.

Then others later on pick up what they wrote and add to it.

Some stories in the bible are pure fiction. Some are colloquialisms, some metaphor, others are collections of self-inspection through meditation and experimentation.

 

[GearsMcGilf]

For all you bible thumpers that believe that prayer will statistically change the likelihood of something happening or not, here is a great study done by a christian organization.

The templeton foundation (christian) wanted to prove that having people pray for cardiac patients going under for bypass would improve their outcome. Unfortunately, the patients that were prayed for fared worse than those that were not prayed for.

When the templeton foundation got the results, their response was "well, you can't measure prayer with science." This is hilarious considering they spent a shit load of money trying to prove that exact thing in which they say can't be done!

Does prayer help some people heal themselves? Maybe, but so does positive thinking and family support. This does not mean that there is some magical sky daddy listening and only helping those that pray. It's more a product of a good mind-body relationship that fosters healing.

Here are two well executed studies that prove my point:

Study of the Therapeutic Effects of Intercessory Prayer (STEP) in cardiac bypass patients: a multicenter randomized trial of uncertainty and certainty of receiving intercessory prayer.

Benson H, Dusek JA, Sherwood JB, Lam P, Bethea CF, Carpenter W, Levitsky S, Hill PC, Clem DW Jr, Jain MK, Drumel D, Kopecky SL, Mueller PS, Marek D, Rollins S, Hibberd PL.
Source

Mind/Body Medical Institute, Department of Medicine, Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center, Harvard Medical School, Boston, MA, USA. hbenson@bidmc.harvard.edu

Abstract

BACKGROUND:

Intercessory prayer is widely believed to influence recovery from illness, but claims of benefits are not supported by well-controlled clinical trials. Prior studies have not addressed whether prayer itself or knowledge/certainty that prayer is being provided may influence outcome. We evaluated whether (1) receiving intercessory prayer or (2) being certain of receiving intercessory prayer was associated with uncomplicated recovery after coronary artery bypass graft (CABG) surgery.
METHODS:

Patients at 6 US hospitals were randomly assigned to 1 of 3 groups: 604 received intercessory prayer after being informed that they may or may not receive prayer; 597 did not receive intercessory prayer also after being informed that they may or may not receive prayer; and 601 received intercessory prayer after being informed they would receive prayer. Intercessory prayer was provided for 14 days, starting the night before CABG. The primary outcome was presence of any complication within 30 days of CABG. Secondary outcomes were any major event and mortality.
RESULTS:

In the 2 groups uncertain about receiving intercessory prayer, complications occurred in 52% (315/604) of patients who received intercessory prayer versus 51% (304/597) of those who did not (relative risk 1.02, 95% CI 0.92-1.15). Complications occurred in 59% (352/601) of patients certain of receiving intercessory prayer compared with the 52% (315/604) of those uncertain of receiving intercessory prayer (relative risk 1.14, 95% CI 1.02-1.28). Major events and 30-day mortality were similar across the 3 groups.
CONCLUSIONS:

Intercessory prayer itself had no effect on complication-free recovery from CABG, but certainty of receiving intercessory prayer was associated with a higher incidence of complications.

• Am Heart J. 2006 Oct;152(4):e39.
• Am Heart J. 2006 Oct;152(4):e33.
• Am Heart J. 2006 Oct;152(4):e31.
• Am Heart J. 2006 Sep;152(3):e25.
• Am Heart J. 2006 Apr;151(4):762-4.
• Am Heart J. 2006 Oct;152(4):e41-2.
• Am Heart J. 2006 Dec;152(6):e63.

Here is the second study:


Music, imagery, touch, and prayer as adjuncts to interventional cardiac care: the Monitoring and Actualisation of Noetic Trainings (MANTRA) II randomised study.

Krucoff MW, Crater SW, Gallup D, Blankenship JC, Cuffe M, Guarneri M, Krieger RA, Kshettry VR, Morris K, Oz M, Pichard A, Sketch MH Jr, Koenig HG, Mark D, Lee KL.
Source

Duke Clinical Research Institute, Durham, NC 27705, USA. kruco001@mc.duke.edu

Abstract

BACKGROUND:

Data from a pilot study suggested that noetic therapies-healing practices that are not mediated by tangible elements-can reduce preprocedural distress and might affect outcomes in patients undergoing percutaneous coronary intervention. We undertook a multicentre, prospective trial of two such practices: intercessory prayer and music, imagery, and touch (MIT) therapy.
METHODS:

748 patients undergoing percutaneous coronary intervention or elective catheterisation in nine USA centres were assigned in a 2x2 factorial randomisation either off-site prayer by established congregations of various religions or no off-site prayer (double-blinded) and MIT therapy or none (unmasked). The primary endpoint was combined in-hospital major adverse cardiovascular events and 6-month readmission or death. Prespecified secondary endpoints were 6-month major adverse cardiovascular events, 6 month death or readmission, and 6-month mortality.
FINDINGS:

371 patients were assigned prayer and 377 no prayer; 374 were assigned MIT therapy and 374 no MIT therapy. The factorial distribution was: standard care only, 192; prayer only, 182; MIT therapy only, 185; and both prayer and MIT therapy, 189. No significant difference was found for the primary composite endpoint in any treatment comparison. Mortality at 6 months was lower with MIT therapy than with no MIT therapy (hazard ratio 0.35 (95% CI 0.15-0.82, p=0.016).
INTERPRETATION:

Neither masked prayer nor MIT therapy significantly improved clinical outcome after elective catheterisation or percutaneous coronary intervention.

Comment in

• Lancet. 2005 Nov 19;366(9499):1769; author reply 1770-1.
• Lancet. 2005 Nov 19;366(9499):1769-70; author reply 1770-1.
• Evid Based Cardiovasc Med. 2005 Dec;9(4):337-9.
• Lancet. 2005 Jul 16-22;366(9481):178.

What a brilliant and useful finding. Seriously, you gotta be the most evangelical atheist on the planet.

 

[exphys88]

What a brilliant and useful finding. Seriously, you gotta be the most evangelical atheist on the planet.

Amen! Praise the lord!- the flying spaghetti monster, of course.

 

[exphys88]

I'm not saying the bible is the "Word of God".

There are no words of "God". Except those people have discerned through real soul searching.

Words are nothing more than a sound produced from air being manipulated by your throat muscles, which humans have attached meanings in their own minds. Nothing more than Classic Conditioning.

Some people choose to write down their experiences.

Then others later on pick up what they wrote and add to it.

Some stories in the bible are pure fiction. Some are colloquialisms, some metaphor, others are collections of self-inspection through meditation and experimentation.

The majority of Christian Americans would disagree that the bible isn't the word of god.

 

[GearsMcGilf]

So we can make fun of Christians, but not Pastafarians??

 

[exphys88]

What a brilliant and useful finding. Seriously, you gotta be the most evangelical atheist on the planet.

I do my best to spread the word of logic and reasoning!

 

[exphys88]

So we can make fun of Christians, but not Pastafarians??

No, us pastafarians enjoy being made fun of, we actually encourage it!

 

[Thee_One]

I do my best to spread the word of logic and reasoning!

200 years ago, All of the things we can do with our technology, would have gone against Logic and Reasoning.

You should try to implore compassion and wisdom along with your "logic and reasoning".

 

[Chubby]

200 years ago, All of the things we can do with our technology, would have gone against Logic and Reasoning.

You should try to implore compassion and wisdom along with your "logic and reasoning".

If everyone use their heart and mind together to make decisions, this world will be so much peacful.

 

[exphys88]

200 years ago, All of the things we can do with our technology, would have gone against Logic and Reasoning.

You should try to implore compassion and wisdom along with your "logic and reasoning".

If you knew me personally, you'd see that I value love and compassion. I'm a family man who loves and respects my wife and kids.

But I believe that faith and religion are worthless and can be detrimental to society. Here are some examples:

The prohibition of stem cell research by fundies.

The pope preaching that condoms are a sin in nations that are ravaged by aids.

The removal of teaching evolution in schools.

The current jihad against all non believers.

Jim jones

The list goes on and on.

 

[bandaidwoman]

200 years ago, All of the things we can do with our technology, would have gone against Logic and Reasoning.

You should try to implore compassion and wisdom along with your "logic and reasoning".

actually the scientific method is the leverage against logic and reasoning. the whole field of quantum physics , general relativity,defies logic and reasoning yet it's the most utilitarian in our most recent technological developments. In medicine it seems logical that vitamin supplements should enhance health but now we know vitamin e and a can lead to increased cancers etc

 

[Thee_One]

If you knew me personally, you'd see that I value love and compassion. I'm a family man who loves and respects my wife and kids.

But I believe that faith and religion are worthless and can be detrimental to society. Here are some examples:

The prohibition of stem cell research by fundies.

The pope preaching that condoms are a sin in nations that are ravaged by aids.

The removal of teaching evolution in schools.

The current jihad against all non believers.

Jim jones

The list goes on and on.

1. That's people, pushing their own opinions.

2. The pope is a man in power = evil. Just because other humans appoint him to some kind of religious/political position, has nothing to do with Human wisdom.

3. Again another agenda, no the fault of the Experience and wisdom passed down by others.

4. Again, classic conditioning. Evil men breed evil children. Duh.

All of your attacks are on people and their sins (mistakes).

 

[Thee_One]

actually the scientific method is the leverage against logic and reasoning. the whole field of quantum physics , general relativity,defies logic and reasoning yet it's the most utilitarian in our most recent technological developments. In medicine it seems logical that vitamin supplements should enhance health but now we know vitamin e and a can lead to increased cancers etc

But is not the scientific method, a method developed from Logic and reasoning?

You can't get around that.

But I agree with everything you've said.

Quantum mechanics, macro mechanics...All beautiful obversations.

And vitamin E....well we need balance in life.

Too much of a good thing can lead to bad things.

Also, synthetics < Natural occuring.

 

[exphys88]

1. That's people, pushing their own opinions.

2. The pope is a man in power = evil. Just because other humans appoint him to some kind of religious/political position, has nothing to do with Human wisdom.

3. Again another agenda, no the fault of the Experience and wisdom passed down by others.

4. Again, classic conditioning. Evil men breed evil children. Duh.

All of your attacks are on people and their sins (mistakes).

You're dismissing the fact that the bible explicitly tells Christians to kill people.

Just read Leviticus and deutoronomy.

 

[bandaidwoman]

honestly almost every religion advocates killing except jainism ( ghandi's sect) and the quakers ( who are ultra pacifists).

 

[exphys88]

But is not the scientific method, a method developed from Logic and reasoning?

You can't get around that.

But I agree with everything you've said.

Quantum mechanics, macro mechanics...All beautiful obversations.

And vitamin E....well we need balance in life.

Too much of a good thing can lead to bad things.

Also, synthetics < Natural occuring.

Let's get back to the original topic. Do you disagree w my assertion that prayer has no effect on others health?

do you think it's beneficial to think that way?

A lot of children have been allowed to die because their parents shunned medicine and chose faith healing instead.

 

[exphys88]

honestly almost every religion advocates killing except jainism ( ghandi's sect) and the quakers ( who are ultra pacifists).

Right, I just use Christianity as an example cause I'm most familiar w it and I live in a predominately Christian nation.

 

[Thee_One]

You're dismissing the fact that the bible explicitly tells Christians to kill people.

Just read Leviticus and deutoronomy.

Yea and that was probably edited in by King James.

So what?

We already established parts of the bible are fictional.

You haven't made any new points.

 

[Thee_One]

Let's get back to the original topic. Do you disagree w my assertion that prayer has no effect on others health?

do you think it's beneficial to think that way?

A lot of children have been allowed to die because their parents shunned medicine and chose faith healing instead.

They were doing it wrong.

 

[exphys88]

Yea and that was probably edited in by King James.

So what?

We already established parts of the bible are fictional.

You haven't made any new points.

Well, then we agree.

 

[exphys88]

They were doing it wrong.

Enlighten me on the correct way

 

[Thee_One]

Enlighten me on the correct way

Yes, Let me enlighten you on an internet forum

Actually, just refer back to my first post in this thread.

 

[bandaidwoman]

Yea and that was probably edited in by King James.

We already established parts of the bible are fictional.

.

unfortunately not many christians south of the dixie line realize this. what's interesting is the bible never mentions dinosaurs but it mentions unicorns!