First Cycle Results and Questions

[BurlB2]

Hi Guys,

First post here. I've browsed this forum for a while but finally signed up and wanted to post some questions following the results of my first 'real' cycle. I say 'real' because I ran a couple of prohormone cycles with mixed results and don't ever want to bother with that crap again. Just a bit of background on myself: I'm 31, been lifting for over 4 years, and have researched diet, training and drugs extensively. I'm what you might call a hobbyist bodybuilder who enjoys slow and steady progress in the gym and has reasonable expectations and goals. I had reached a point where I felt I was ready to experiment with AAS and my first cycle has yielded a fairly positive experience.

Here is the cycle I ran.
Test Cyp @ 250mg/week: Weeks 1-12
Turinabol @ 75mg/day: Weeks 8-12
Anastrozole @ 1mg/week: Weeks 1-18
Clomid @ 100/50/50/50 during PCT: Weeks 14-18
HCG @ 2500iu/1500iu/750iu/250iu: Weeks 14-18

I got all this gear from the same very reliable source, and while I know the Test, T-Bol and HCG were real, I felt the Anastrozole and Clomid might have been bunk.

Here are my 'quick' result stats:
Body weight increased from 200lbs to 243lbs by week 12
BF went from 13% to 10% by week 12
All my lifts went up considerably.
Overall, I was very pleased with this cycle, even though I experienced significant water retention from the Test. I don't think I would ever take T-Bol again for a number of reasons.

Here's my first question:
About 6 months after completing this cycle, I had a bit of pain/soreness in my left nipple; what I assume was onset gyno. I swear a small lump had formed at one point, but it's now completely gone, thankfully. I have not taken any drugs or supps since ending this cycle. It has been just over 1 year since that time.
So what gives? How come I got this side 6 months after my PCT ended!?
If I ever cycle again, what do you guys recommend I do different to avoid the gyno?

*Side Note* I started my PCT after waiting 2 weeks following the last Test injection, because that's the time-frame I see most prominent on these forums and articles for the ester I took. However, I read an article a few months ago that showed a chart of all the test esters and their half-lifes--Cyp was like 27 days! So I'm thinking I started my PCT way too early, and the HCG compounded an already nominally high T-level, which lingered probably for months, therefore causing the onset gyno, long after finishing my PCT. What do you guys think?

Here's my second question:
At the beginning of the cycle I got insane pumps where I could barely do cardio without my legs blowing up. By week 6, I really felt I got a handle on that 'mind-muscle' connection and was still getting great pumps. Once I added the T-Bol, I felt these strange tight, dry pumps. After the whole cycle ended, I started to feel a disconnection with the mind-muscle thing, and felt like I just couldn't get the kind of contractions and pumps I was getting before-hand. This might sound strange, but it mostly affected the biceps. I felt like I just couldn't get that squeeze going, no matter what angle or movement I tried. And I felt whenever I did get a little pump, it was nothing compared to what I had experienced previously, even before taking gear.

Any ideas why this might have happened? Has anyone else experienced this? My diet and water consumption was consistent through the entire cycle (pre, during, and post).

I have many other questions and I can provide a TON more stats/background on myself and the cycle as needed, but I wanted to keep this first post short.

Thanks guys!

 

[BurlB2]

bump! c'mon guys, someone must be able to chime in on this. I know these questions aren't typical, but hey, I can't be the only one who's experienced these things.

And aren't you all glad I didn't ask some dumb ass shit like "how does Tren work"? lol

 

[johnsonl3872]

Everyone's body is different. From the looks of it both questions could be because of a myriad of reasons. We aren't doctors just guys that try to benefit from a shared knowledge pool. If it was me I would ask your PCP


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[BurlB2]

Thanks for the response Johnson. I do appreciate it.

I know you guys aren't doctors. I guess I'm a bit surprised how unique my issues seem to be.

I've seen my PCP and he knows about the cycle and what I took, but he's not about to give me advice on making adjustments in regards to a future cycle lol that's why I'm here. [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]
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[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]If anyone else has any other input, it would be great to hear. Thanks again![/FONT]
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[animale66]

Great post BurlB, and lots of good detail there. I'm *GUESSING* on the first bit that you experienced rebound gyno. Indeed everyone's different... I swear I can down 2G of gear w/o a hint of puffyness but I have a friend that if he looks at a bottle of test he grows a full pair of moobs.

Additionally, it's not just your Test and Estrogen levels, but also the ratio of the two that can dictate things like mood... I can't say for certain if it plays into gyno or not, but I'd believe it.

As far as why it was 6 months later... that's hard to say...

As to your second question, I've never run Tbol (I'm a sdrol guy usually) but I will say my energy level changes a lot when I go on orals. Usually, for the first 2 weeks I turn into a complete monster in the gym wanting to train 3 hours a day and rip bars in half... the last two weeks I barely wanna get outta bed... oh the lethargy...

Hard to do a good post mortem on it I think... but I will say, as someone whos your age and training history, I'm jealous as fark of ur gainz. Helluva run man!

 

[BurlB2]

Thanks for that reply Animale!

I'm *GUESSING* on the first bit that you experienced rebound gyno. Indeed everyone's different... I swear I can down 2G of gear w/o a hint of puffyness but I have a friend that if he looks at a bottle of test he grows a full pair of moobs.

Additionally, it's not just your Test and Estrogen levels, but also the ratio of the two that can dictate things like mood... I can't say for certain if it plays into gyno or not, but I'd believe it.

As far as why it was 6 months later... that's hard to say...

I agree with the notion of this being rebound gyno in my case for a number of reasons. The test I ran was from a very reliable source, which I won't discuss here, because I read the rules, but needless to say, it was good stuff. Aside from its potency, I believe the ester lingered in my system much longer than I had expected. So as a warning to others thinking about their first cycle with Test Cyp or a longer ester compound, I would suggest waiting 4 weeks before starting PCT, unless of course you choose to mix in a bunch of other compounds with more imminent sides and shorter half-lives.

As to your second question, I've never run Tbol (I'm a sdrol guy usually) but I will say my energy level changes a lot when I go on orals. Usually, for the first 2 weeks I turn into a complete monster in the gym wanting to train 3 hours a day and rip bars in half... the last two weeks I barely wanna get outta bed... oh the lethargy...

Haha, good description. Aside from HDrol, Turinabol is the only oral compound I've tried, and I, too, am of the understanding many oral compounds have overlaps in their sides, like lethargy, back pumps and dry joints.
With the TBol I used (from the same source), I was able to manage all the sides very well, given the relatively high dosage I took (and I may have actually extended usage to almost 5 weeks, ending around 100mg/day). I never got that feeling of being a monster on it and I'm not sure what it really did for me in terms of strength. I know it's mild to begin with, but it actually felt lighter to me in comparison to the HDrol (prohormone) I cycled twice prior, which is puzzling to me, because HDrol is supposed to be 'once removed' from Tbol. Nonetheless, the worst sides I got with TBol were elevated liver values and the awful back pumps.

Not to get a little off-topic, but I wanted to further elaborate on my anecdotal experience with TBol and why I would not run it again.
Here is a 'cost-benefit' analysis of my TBol cycle:

Positives:
-harder looking, fuller, and harder/drier feeling muscles
-noticeable increase in vascularity
-'drier' muscle pumps, but not necessarily stronger or better pumps than with Test alone
-seemed to slightly lean me out and/or decrease some water retention, which was rather high with the Test Cyp, even though I took Anastrazole

Negatives:
-nasty back pumps*, almost debilitating, until I dialed in how to stretch and manage them (will explain below)
-slight loss of libido about 1.5 weeks in, thank god I had Test as a base, because I could tell it would have been much worse without it
-highly elevated liver values (more on this later), but it was so bad my doctor ordered a sonogram of my endocrine system to check for physical liver and kidney damage.
-urge to urinate was relatively intense, frequent, inconvenient and persistent; maybe every 30-40 min, even through the night
-mild joint dryness, but nothing debilitating*
-periodic, mild kidney pain
-no real increase in strength
-required relatively high dosing protocol to achieve the few positive effects listed below

Other notables:
-mood remained completely stable*
-sleep not negatively affected*
-body temp not affected*
-no lethargy throughout cycle*

The above effects onset about the 3rd day of the TBol cycle and vanished immediately upon cessation of the compound, with the exception of liver values, which took a few months to recover. Given this, you can see the negatives clearly outweighed the positives for me, personally, and given the liver situation, which is much heavier weighted in terms of cost-benefit, I would probably never run this, or any other oral, again.

The * denotes these side-effects were 'managed' with a strong, well-planned diet and supplement regime, including things like Taurine, Multi-vitamin, joint, fish oil, and other formals, as well as creatine, and at least 1 gallon of water ED, if not more. For the back pumps, I devised a way to stretch out my lower back between every set of leg and back movements. This was key for managing them. Otherwise, I would not have been able to do legs or back at all on TBol, despite the diet and supp support.

A word on liver values. Like I mentioned, this stuff was strong and really fucked up my values. But I had no clue until I actually went for a blood test. I never got jaundice, loss of appetite, or any other overt symptom of a liver problem. And even though I ran a sophisticated supplement regiment, with 'liver & kidney support,' and had a really clean diet, I still had this issue affect me!

I am grateful to have no permanent damage after the sonogram of my endocrine system (~1 month post cycle), and now, a year later, my liver values are back to a perfectly normal range. I should also mention the only fluid I ever consumed on the entire cycle was WATER. In fact, I only drank water for 2 months preceding and following the full 12 week cycle. If I had slacked off and went out drinking for a night, I could have been hospitalized. Please be careful with these types of compounds, especially orals. If you get legit orals, they can and will fuck you up at higher dosages. Like everyone else here says, get bloodwork, see your PCP or specialist, be honest with them, and be responsible with yourself.

More info on my experience with Test to come...

 

[BurlB2]

but I will say, as someone whos your age and training history, I'm jealous as fark of ur gainz. Helluva run man!

Thanks man. Yea, it certainly was a solid run, although I do have to say I really dialed in my diet and training so I think that helped tremendously. I also think the number I gave can be a bit deceiving since I know I was carrying about ~15lbs of water weight during most of the cycle. It was kinda funny how during PCT that 15lbs just dropped off me, and I lost a bunch of strength (oddly enough, I lost much more strength in my upper body than in my lower). Anyway, it's really incredible how something simple like extra water retained in the muscles can give someone such a boost in strength.

 

[BurlB2]

Finally got a chance to update this thread regarding my experience with Test Cyp thus far...

First off, I am blown away by the power of this hormone. I had been on TRT for a little while under the supervision of my PCP, and he was dosing me a mere 250mg of pharma grade Test Cyp/month! My natural test production was somewhere down near 121 before starting TRT. And after the first month at this very small dosage, I started to develop a ravenous appetite. Two months in, my mood started soaring. I had been lifting and improving my diet the whole time, so by the third month, I was getting sick pumps in the gym and had definitely been able to add some lean mass. Also, my libido went up significantly. I was able to get my weight up to just under 200lbs and my body fat down to about 12% quite easily.

After 4th month on TRT, my PCP weaned me off, and for whatever reason, my T-levels held stable at around 300 for a good long while after that. The fascinating thing is that for some guys, this level would be too low, but for me it was like I was reborn! On top of this, I didn't get any negative sides whatsoever. Plus, the dosage didn't shut me down at all, and in fact, it successfully restored and sustained a healthy T-level.

Honestly, the TRT changed my life for the better.

More to come...

 

[BurlB2]

So about a year or so after that TRT experience, I was fortunate enough to procure some green gear and have a go at my first real 'cycle'. Of course, this is all hypothetical, but it makes for a good story.

I've already gone into detail regarding the TBol side of the story, which wasn't the best experience, but as far as the Test Cyp I ran, it was absolutely incredible. This time, I simply ran 250mg/wk for 12 weeks. Still, basically a glorified TRT dosing schedule. I like to play things safe. Nonetheless, for me, it was so powerful, I gained strength and size at an almost embarrassing rate.

Whenever I had taken supplements, SARMs, peptides, or even prohormones in the past--its almost like I'm wondering "is it bunk or not?", "should I feel something more on this?", "is it really working?" But with legit Test, it's like "god damn I definitely feel this working!" There's no doubt that you're on something.

And I was never looking to blow up. My expectation was just slow steady gains with no sides. Goal was just to experiment a bit and gain some lean mass while keeping my BF% relatively low. Diet and training were still the focal point during this cycle.

I will say, it took about 4 solid weeks for the Cyp to kick in, so I'm glad I ran a 12 week cycle, because once it kicked in, it was incredible and I didn't want it to end. The feeling of confidence, elevated mood, and libido boost were unreal to me. The injections were easy and relatively painless. I remember after each injection, I would almost immediately get a wave of euphoria that pulsed through my body, and I'd start popping some chubs lol. I would also get this incredible 'bloodthirsty' metallic sort of taste in my gums, like I had hunt and kill animals for fresh red meat lol. It just felt like I was coming to life in a sense, but in a good way. These sensations continued from the start to maybe a month or so after the last injection...

 

[BurlB2]

As touched on in earlier posts, I've never been very strong and never trained for strength, but I was putting up 225 like it was 135 by week 6. It was almost comical.

I should mention that I train with the sort of Kai Greene school of thought...where one is moving and controlling the weight with only the muscle or group of muscles one is looking to build. I'm not sure if he came up with this methodology or not, but the point here is that when I was lifting 225 on the barbell, I was only using my chest to lift that weight--nothing else--as I was resting all my other muscles; simply using my arms to hold the weight, while focusing on the mind-muscle connection to the chest, and keeping time under tension, and getting a great contraction and a nice stretch; right in that sweet spot range of motion. Woo! I really had my movements dialed in! God damn it felt good. And I was getting like 3 sets of 10 clean reps before I had to recruit other muscles to move that weight.

Yes, I did put on a considerable amount of water weight (maybe 15lbs or so), but I truly believe its the water weight that gives one the strength, which one can then use as a vehicle for stimulating lean mass hypertrophy; similar to the way people use creatine, I suppose.

I have a few more thoughts on this first cycle experience to elaborate on when I get some more time to update this thread. Hopefully some of you guys find this stuff interesting, or at least entertaining lol

 

[heckler7]

I tried to read some of this but there is a lot of info here, can you post a specific question. thanks

 

[BurlB2]

I tried to read some of this but there is a lot of info here, can you post a specific question. thanks

Hi, the thread has admittedly become more about results than questions, but my original two main questions were...

1) How is it possible to get zero sides on cycle, but get onset gyno 6 months after the last injection?

2) Has anyone experienced a loss​ or fading in mind-muscle connection while nearing the end of a cycle (before PCT)?

 

[Glycomann]

Hi, the thread has admittedly become more about results than questions, but my original two main questions were...

1) How is it possible to get zero sides on cycle, but get onset gyno 6 months after the last injection?

2) Has anyone experienced a loss​ or fading in mind-muscle connection while nearing the end of a cycle (before PCT)?

Your body goes through a normalization process. As the steroids run down estrogen becomes dominant and some of the stromal cells in your breast tissue can be triggered into growth. If this state persists long enough a nodule can form as the tissue begins to differentiate into more breast tissue as it feminizes from estrogen and other factors. If you are lucky and the endocrine system normalizes fast enough the swelling in the tissues recedes without differentiation and the problem dissipates. In general onve the problem occurs susceptibility to recurrence is present.

 

[BurlB2]

Your body goes through a normalization process. As the steroids run down estrogen becomes dominant and some of the stromal cells in your breast tissue can be triggered into growth. If this state persists long enough a nodule can form as the tissue begins to differentiate into more breast tissue as it feminizes from estrogen and other factors. If you are lucky and the endocrine system normalizes fast enough the swelling in the tissues recedes without differentiation and the problem dissipates. In general onve the problem occurs susceptibility to recurrence is present.

Thanks Glyco, very useful and descriptive! So do you think there is a way to taper your AIs and SERMs accordingly throughout this normalization process?

Most people might call this a PCT lasting 4 weeks, but I'm starting to think the traditional 4 week PCTs we so often see discussed online is more broscience and crude guesswork than an effective way to safely come off AAS.

I think, especially when running longer esters like I did, it's important to continue running the ancillaries in a tapered manner. And I think it's also important to allow enough clearance time before running Clomid or HCG to restart HPTA. Correct me if I'm wrong, though.