From Prop to Enanthate...

[ZorroAzul]

After my disappointing experience with EQ, I have decided to do what I should have always done, test-only cycle.

Instead of kick-starting with orals which I cannot do, I want to do it with Prop and finish with Prop.

Question is: Should I overlap the prop and Enanthate, or just switch? in case I am not making myself clear...

Switching would be:
1-3 PROP 150 EOD
4-8 ENATHATE 600/week
9-12 PROP 150 EOD

Or overlapping same as above, just running the Enanthate all the way 1-9

Thanks!

 

[Du]

Switching would be:
1-3 PROP 150 EOD
4-8 ENATHATE 600/week
9-12 PROP 150 EOD

Or overlapping same as above, just running the Enanthate all the way 1-9

Thanks!

Run eth all the way, 1-9.
Could kickstart with 1-3 prop.

 

[ZECH]

Depends on if you can wait several weeks for the enanthate to kick in. If not use the prop.

 

[Du]

Depends on if you can wait several weeks for the enanthate to kick in. If not use the prop.

But either way, he shouldnt wait till week 3 to start the ethanate.

Am I wrong?

 

[ZECH]

Probably not. If he takes only prop then switches to Enanthate, the prop will be gone before the enanthate kicks in. But he will need to adjust his dosage accordingly. I would not take 600mg a week of Enanthate and 150mg eod of prop. That's alot.

 

[Mudge]

I would run the prop for the first 2 weeks, even that might induce gyno symptoms (be ready for it). This is WITH the enanthate, thats the whole point of running the prop early on.

 

[LAM]

I would run the prop for the first 2 weeks, even that might induce gyno symptoms (be ready for it). This is WITH the enanthate, thats the whole point of running the prop early on.

ditto...

and make sure that you have enough nolvadex on hand

 

[Oneiros]

About "kicking-in" of Enanthate (don't wish to be offensive or anything, just to clear something up).

It has nothing to do with Enanthate's biochemical properties, more specifically half life. Half life of E. is about 5 or 6 days (at the most). This means that from a 500mg injection on day #1, 250mg would be eliminated by the end of week #1 and more than 4/5 will be out of the system by the end of week #2.

The reason you see substantial effects later on (by week 3 or thereabouts), is mainly because the body needs some time to "solidify" muscle gains. Also, cumulative steroid quantities, from injection #2, #3, etc, work on keeping systemic testosterone levels highly elevated.

More specifically to the question at hand. Since you are going to do a 12 week cycle (which I think is too long, but this is another matter), it is of no consequence to use enanthate during the first 8 weeks and switch to propionate for the final weeks, allowing a tapering of dosage. My generic view is that it's better to use non-aromatizable steroids during the last weeks, but careful timing with propionate will allow you to have little steroid in the system by the end of, say, week #13 or so.

What about anti-e? I don't recall mentioning them on your post.

 

[ZECH]

More like 10-11 days. That is why it takes times to build in your system.

 

[Oneiros]

More like 10-11 days. That is why it takes times to build in your system.

No. This is a common bodybuilding myth. All enanthate esters (not just Testosterone, but, e.g. Primobolan also) have a half life of about 5 days.

I have some diagrams from a couple of relevant studies somewhere, hopefully I'll find and post them.

 

[Oneiros]

OK, from a quick google search:

http://www.medibolics.com/freq2.htm
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=2333732&dopt=Abstract
http://www.medsafe.govt.nz/profs/Datasheet/p/Primotestondepotinj.htm

It goes without saying that frequently quoted half lives of Cypionate are equally erroneous (about 7 days in reality).

 

[ZECH]

Check the sticky on half lives..............

 

[ZECH]

I found one that says 7 days. Maybe it should be adjusted.

 

[Oneiros]

Check the sticky on half lives..............

Already did that friend. Nearly all the claims about the esters are erroneous.

Sorry but chemical assisted body recomposition is not an activity that should be based on rumor and so called "steroid experts". Only valid scientific research is applicable.

Have you checked my links?

 

[ZorroAzul]

Oneiros...
If what you are saying is true, then how do you explain the faster action of Prop, or even more Suspension...?

 

[Du]

http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/showpost.php?p=433388&postcount=1

Heres the best writeup on esters Ive found, its in my Favorites folder. This math will put the half life of an ethanate at about ten days.

 

[ZECH]

http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/showpost.php?p=433388&postcount=1

Heres the best writeup on esters Ive found, its in my Favorites folder. This math will put the half life of an ethanate at about ten days.

yep 10.5 days. I said 10-11. Need to pull up more info on this.

 

[Du]

yep 10.5 days. I said 10-11. Need to pull up more info on this.

Yep, I was backin ya up, dg.

 

[Mudge]

Thats the active half life, the true half life is reportedly closer to 5 days.

With long esters the retard is not as fast, so peak blood levels become higher than that of a short ester.

 

[ZorroAzul]

Thanks for advice guys!

I guess I'll do:

1-9 600 Enanthate
1,2 Start 150 EOD Prop, decrease 25 mg each shot up to 50 mg
10,11 Start 50 EOD Prop, work up to 100 mg.
start PCT 3 days after last shot

.25 Arimidex ED 1-10

This looks about right, IMHO

 

[Pirate!]

Why not just do the arimidex concurent with the prop? Do you fear gyno with just Enan? And why not take arimidex during week 11? Just curious.

 

[Mudge]

He is probably avoiding bloat or something. I actually dont mind keeping estrogen down a bit, some believe it helps in recovery and I know I feel that it does personally. I've had better experiences with my PCT when using it during the cycle.

 

[ZorroAzul]

Yes Mudge, I am trying to avoid bloat and specifically the increase in blood pressure that comes with water retention.
I know that there is a danger to the cholesterol levels being affected, but I doubt that .25mg/day will do, and even if it does 9 weeks is not that long. Cholesterol needs decades to kill you.

I just learned in your last post that it will increase recovery, so perfect!

 

[Mudge]

You can always do EOD, but that is a fairly moderate arimidex dose, so I wouldn't sweat it too much.

 

[ZorroAzul]

BTW, I've never used long ester test (besides sustanon)...

So, Cypionate or Enanthate?? both cheap, but I always hear you guys mention Enathate, Any reason in particular?

 

[Mudge]

More common than cypionate really, no special reason otherwise. Enanthate can be made with little to no BA at all, so its also easier to get into suspension.

 

[ZorroAzul]

More common than cypionate really, no special reason otherwise. Enanthate can be made with little to no BA at all, so its also easier to get into suspension.

I guess that translates into less painful injection sites... Sold!!

thanks!

 

[Mudge]

One would hope (certainly if you make it yourself), but if you pick up Upjohn cypionate its famous for no pain. Its also however only 200mg/ml.

At least one person I know of uses no BA in his enanthate at all.

 

[Pirate!]

but if you pick up Upjohn cypionate its famous for no pain.

Very true. No pain at all.

 

[LAM]

At least one person I know of uses no BA in his enanthate at all.

I don't think IP uses BA either. I do quad shots with it at 250 mg/ml and I don't feel a thing..