i agree, but can't stay on forever
I dont plan on coming off 150mg of deca for a long while, currently cruising on 250mg of test and 150mg of deca......
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gear for joints?
- Thread starter showtime104
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I dont plan on coming off 150mg of deca for a long while, currently cruising on 250mg of test and 150mg of deca......
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Before I scrolled down to your post I was just sayin what about a Deca/Eq/Var cycle. It sounds like a person will get all the benefits of each one for some pain relief and some collegen repair. Now I ain't acting like I am the first one to think of or even suggest this kind of cycle. This was just a thought.
Beating a dead Horse here but deca helped with my shoulder pain immensely. Problem is that you have to add test to keep from getting deca dick. You could have calcium deposits or other issues that a doc should look at. For long term relief a cortisone shot from your doc always helps too.
If you like pain.
celticthug
Registered
will bump eq 600 decca 600 16 weeks.REALLY helped.and seemed to continue after cycle.not injured joints,jus sore an abused.of course run test.though first cycle i jus ran dball an decca a was jus fine
RockShawn
Registered
REPOST
Joint and Tendon Cycle :
every once in a while its a good idea to run a Joint and Tendon health cycle to help repair the damages you have encountered running higher doses of test, and other compounds.
The Cycle
1-17 Test E 250-300mg/wk
1-16 EQ 500-600mg/wk
1-17 Mod-Grf 100mcg 2 x per day
1-17 GHRP-2 100mcg 2 x per day
1-6 Anavar 50mg/ed
1-17 Aromasin 12.5mg EOD
PCT
19 - Clomid 100mg/ed - 25mg Aromasin ED
20-21 Clomid 75mg/ed - 12.5mg Aromasin ED
22 - Clomid 50mg/ed - 12.5mg Aromasin EOD
You can also add a back end Oral, like Anavar or even a low dose Dbol to the end. I chose EQ over deca for the fact that in order for this to be successful you need your test to be 300mg or less, anything more will cause collagen degeneration. EQ has been shown to increase collagen synthesis up to 320%. If you ran Deca higher than Test like above, you can pose the risk of issues.
Anavar is a medically recognized repair & recovery compound - but relative to an injectable, it will probably always be the second thing brought up and not the first. It is usually more expensive, an oral and requires at least 50 mg / day to be worth anything for a guy.
The studies I've seen are inconclusive on glucosamine, however I've been using MSM / glucosamine / chondroitin for several years, w/ the bigger emphasis on MSM.
Adequan is a joint treatment for animals. You need a script (from a vet) to use it and it is not available from a physician (since it is a vet medication). The human equivalent is alflutop. From what I've heard, its not as effective as adequan, for whatever reason.
I'd also add that making sure you're getting enough EFAs in your diet (e.g. omega-3s) - this is an easy dietary way to help support your joints.
From an injury standpoint, ice is your best friend. Its hard if its an on-going thing. It might best require just laying off for a while. If its more than that, keep up w/ the regular icing and also be sure to work on good stretching & warmup.
Another thing to keep in mind is that using AIs, including winstrol, these are designed to suppress estrogen, which subsequently suppresses water. So expect to experience joint pain with these. You can stack w/ other things so its a balance of water & water suppression, or just be aware of it, expect it and train / plan / recover accordingly.
JMedic79
Registered
Mobic is a pretty powerful NSAID. There is research floating around about NSAIDs effect of blocking prostaglandins and they're concurrent role in protein synthesis. Just a thought. Lots of pain in lots of joints, getting older, history of intense repetitive impact exercises, this path leads down the ruling-out-arthritis diagnosis. A doctor might be your best bet.
I've heard that Deca is supposed to be good for your joints and I am not disagreeing with people who say that it works for them. However I have seen the article below on a post from a different site. It is from the December 2011 issue of Muscular Development and makes for an interesting read, keep in mind that the experiments were performed on rats and rabbits:
DECA-DURABOLIN Weakens Tendons and Collagen
If you are not visiting musculardevelopment.com on a daily basis, you are not getting breaking news and up-to-the-minute information. In a recent thread started in the NO BULL forums a person wrote, ???How come people don???t train like Ronnie anymore???? The thread talked about the change in the training style of all the bodybuilders to more high-volume training and less high-intensity training. With the exception of Branch Warren, there are not many pros who are training with high intensity. It may be because today???s bodybuilders don???t want to risk injury. Here is a list of some of the top bodybuilders who have suffered major injuries or tears during their training careers, off the top of my head:
Is it just a coincidence that bodybuilders are more likely to suffer injuries because of heavy training, or does the use of anabolic-androgenic steroids (AAS) have any impact on tendon/collagen strength? The research is very preliminary, as only a few studies have examined the effects of AAS on tendon and collagen strength. It was shown that anabolic steroids alter the biomechanical properties of tendons and reduce tendon flexibility.(1,2,3)
Some interesting theories have been suggested as why heavy anabolic steroid use can cause tendon injury, which is based around cortisol production and AAS. Researches have demonstrated that AAS combined with tension overload reduced MMP2 activity (MMP2 is a gene responsible for collagen production) and increased serum values of cortisol.(4) During cortisol treatment, the serum levels of genes responsible for collagen production decrease, suggesting that cortisol suppresses the synthesis of collagen production.(5) The reduction in genes for collagen and tendons have been speculated as to why AAS makes bodybuilders susceptible to injuries. New research links the use of high doses of anabolic steroids to tendon and collagen dysfunction, which may make a bodybuilder think twice about training heavily while using anabolics.
GENE EXPRESSION IN TENDONS/COLLAGEN AFTER HEAVY AAS USE
Researchers in the European Journal of Applied Physiology examined how heavy use of the anabolic steroid Deca-Durabolin affected collagen strength in rats. The rats were separated into two groups: natural training and training with heavy anabolic steroid use. The dose the researchers administered to the rats was considered supra-physiological ??? Deca-Durabolin (nandrolone decanoate) 5mg/kg of bodyweight.
The rats were cleverly forced to perform resistance exercise, but you can???t just tell a rat to start benching ??? so the researchers attached weights to the rats??? backs. They dropped the rats into a tank of water and the rats immediately jumped out of the water as soon as they were dunked. Every week, the researchers gradually made the weight on the rats??? backs heavier and heavier until at the end of seven weeks the weight was 80 percent of their bodyweight. The researchers dropped the rats in the tank so that they performed this for 4 sets x 10 repetitions of ???jumps??? with 30-second rest periods. After that, they rats were sacrificed and the rats??? tendons and collagen were examined for gene expression.
There were some very interesting findings after seven weeks of training with anabolic steroids, compared with the natty (natural) group of rats. The natty group did not have any biochemical changes in the rat tendon/collagen properties, while the anabolic steroid group had major changes.(6) The Deca-Durabolin group had reduced biochemical properties of genes involving tendon and collagen strength.
It is interesting to note that AAS administration reduced the accumulation of IGF-1 mRNA levels in some tendon regions, compared to the non-treated, trained group. This decrease of IGF-1 mRNA levels induced by AAS administration may be related to the observed decreases collagen expression when considering the possible connection between IGF-1 and collagen synthesis.(8) The AAS treatment also decreased the MMP-2 mRNA expression (this gene encodes an enzyme for collagen).
The above study is similar to another recently published study, which showed that nandrolone impaired the healing of rotator cuffs of rabbits. In the latter study, male rabbits underwent an incision in the rotator cuff and were divided into groups with anabolic steroids (nandrolone decanoate, 10mg/kg) and natural recovery. Groups that did not receive anabolic steroids showed better healing and more tendon strength compared to groups that received anabolic steroids. Microscopic examination of specimens from the groups with anabolic steroid use showed focal fibroblastic reaction and inflammation, suggesting an impaired healing response.(7)
The key point is that many of these studies were using supraphysiological dosages of steroids that could be like the typical Olympia stack ??? but the new research suggests that a high-volume approach to training with less weight may be a better approach to use for a bodybuilder than a high-intensity, heavy weight program that puts more stress on the tendons and makes them more susceptible to injury.
By Robbie Durand, M.A., Senior Science Editor of Muscular Development
References:
1. Evans NA, Bowrey DJ, Newman GR (1998) Ultrastructural analysis of ruptured tendon from anabolic steroid users. Injury, 29:769-773.
2: Marqueti RC, Prestes J, Paschoal M, Ramos OH, Perez SE, Carvalho HF, Selistre-de-Araujo HS (2008) Matrix metallopeptidase 2 activity in tendon regions: effects of mechanical loading exercise associated to anabolic-androgenic steroids, Eur J Appl Physiol, 104:1087-1093.
3: Marqueti RC, Prestes J, Wang CC, Ramos OH, Perez SE, Nakagaki WR, Carvalho HF, Selistre-de-Araujo HS (2010). Biomechanical responses of different rat tendons to nandrolone decanoate and load exercise. Scand J Med Sci Sports, 29.
4: Marqueti RC, Parizotto NA, Chriguer RS, Perez SEA, Selistre-de-Araujo HS (2006) Androgenic-anabolic steroids associated with mechanical loading inhibit matrix metallopeptidase activity and affect the remodeling of the Achilles tendon in rats. Am J Sport Med, 34:1274-1280.
5: Oikarinen A, Autio P, Vuori J, Va¨a¨na¨nen K, Risteli L, Kiistala U, Risteli J (1992) Systemic glucocorticoid treatment decreases serum concentrations of carboxyterminal propeptide of type I procollagen and aminoterminal propeptide of type III procollagen. Br J Dermatol, 126:172-178.
6: Marqueti RC, Heinemeier KM, Durigan JL, de Andrade Perez SE, Schjerling P, Kjaer M, Carvalho HF, Selistre-de-Araujo HS. Erratum to: Gene expression in distinct regions of rat tendons in response to jump training combined with anabolic androgenic steroid administration. Eur J Appl Physiol, 2011 Sep 8.
7: Papaspiliopoulos A, Papaparaskeva K, Papadopoulou E, Feroussis J, Papalois A, Zoubos A. The effect of local use of nandrolone decanoate on rotator cuff repair in rabbits. J Invest Surg, 2010 Aug;23(4):204-7.
8: Heinemeier KM, Olesen JL, Schjerling P, Hassad F, Langberg H, Baldwin KM, Kjaer M (2007b) Short-term strength training and the expression of myostatin and IGF-1 isoforms in rat muscle and tendon: differential effects of specific contraction types. J Appl Physiol, 102:573-581.
DECA-DURABOLIN Weakens Tendons and Collagen
If you are not visiting musculardevelopment.com on a daily basis, you are not getting breaking news and up-to-the-minute information. In a recent thread started in the NO BULL forums a person wrote, ???How come people don???t train like Ronnie anymore???? The thread talked about the change in the training style of all the bodybuilders to more high-volume training and less high-intensity training. With the exception of Branch Warren, there are not many pros who are training with high intensity. It may be because today???s bodybuilders don???t want to risk injury. Here is a list of some of the top bodybuilders who have suffered major injuries or tears during their training careers, off the top of my head:
- Dorian Yates: tricep/bicep
- Kevin Levrone: pec
- Rich Gaspari: pec
- Ronnie Coleman: tricep
- Berry de May: pec
- Chris Dickerson: pec
- Tom Platz: bicep
- Branch Warren: tricep/quad tendon
Is it just a coincidence that bodybuilders are more likely to suffer injuries because of heavy training, or does the use of anabolic-androgenic steroids (AAS) have any impact on tendon/collagen strength? The research is very preliminary, as only a few studies have examined the effects of AAS on tendon and collagen strength. It was shown that anabolic steroids alter the biomechanical properties of tendons and reduce tendon flexibility.(1,2,3)
Some interesting theories have been suggested as why heavy anabolic steroid use can cause tendon injury, which is based around cortisol production and AAS. Researches have demonstrated that AAS combined with tension overload reduced MMP2 activity (MMP2 is a gene responsible for collagen production) and increased serum values of cortisol.(4) During cortisol treatment, the serum levels of genes responsible for collagen production decrease, suggesting that cortisol suppresses the synthesis of collagen production.(5) The reduction in genes for collagen and tendons have been speculated as to why AAS makes bodybuilders susceptible to injuries. New research links the use of high doses of anabolic steroids to tendon and collagen dysfunction, which may make a bodybuilder think twice about training heavily while using anabolics.
GENE EXPRESSION IN TENDONS/COLLAGEN AFTER HEAVY AAS USE
Researchers in the European Journal of Applied Physiology examined how heavy use of the anabolic steroid Deca-Durabolin affected collagen strength in rats. The rats were separated into two groups: natural training and training with heavy anabolic steroid use. The dose the researchers administered to the rats was considered supra-physiological ??? Deca-Durabolin (nandrolone decanoate) 5mg/kg of bodyweight.
The rats were cleverly forced to perform resistance exercise, but you can???t just tell a rat to start benching ??? so the researchers attached weights to the rats??? backs. They dropped the rats into a tank of water and the rats immediately jumped out of the water as soon as they were dunked. Every week, the researchers gradually made the weight on the rats??? backs heavier and heavier until at the end of seven weeks the weight was 80 percent of their bodyweight. The researchers dropped the rats in the tank so that they performed this for 4 sets x 10 repetitions of ???jumps??? with 30-second rest periods. After that, they rats were sacrificed and the rats??? tendons and collagen were examined for gene expression.
There were some very interesting findings after seven weeks of training with anabolic steroids, compared with the natty (natural) group of rats. The natty group did not have any biochemical changes in the rat tendon/collagen properties, while the anabolic steroid group had major changes.(6) The Deca-Durabolin group had reduced biochemical properties of genes involving tendon and collagen strength.
It is interesting to note that AAS administration reduced the accumulation of IGF-1 mRNA levels in some tendon regions, compared to the non-treated, trained group. This decrease of IGF-1 mRNA levels induced by AAS administration may be related to the observed decreases collagen expression when considering the possible connection between IGF-1 and collagen synthesis.(8) The AAS treatment also decreased the MMP-2 mRNA expression (this gene encodes an enzyme for collagen).
The above study is similar to another recently published study, which showed that nandrolone impaired the healing of rotator cuffs of rabbits. In the latter study, male rabbits underwent an incision in the rotator cuff and were divided into groups with anabolic steroids (nandrolone decanoate, 10mg/kg) and natural recovery. Groups that did not receive anabolic steroids showed better healing and more tendon strength compared to groups that received anabolic steroids. Microscopic examination of specimens from the groups with anabolic steroid use showed focal fibroblastic reaction and inflammation, suggesting an impaired healing response.(7)
The key point is that many of these studies were using supraphysiological dosages of steroids that could be like the typical Olympia stack ??? but the new research suggests that a high-volume approach to training with less weight may be a better approach to use for a bodybuilder than a high-intensity, heavy weight program that puts more stress on the tendons and makes them more susceptible to injury.
By Robbie Durand, M.A., Senior Science Editor of Muscular Development
References:
1. Evans NA, Bowrey DJ, Newman GR (1998) Ultrastructural analysis of ruptured tendon from anabolic steroid users. Injury, 29:769-773.
2: Marqueti RC, Prestes J, Paschoal M, Ramos OH, Perez SE, Carvalho HF, Selistre-de-Araujo HS (2008) Matrix metallopeptidase 2 activity in tendon regions: effects of mechanical loading exercise associated to anabolic-androgenic steroids, Eur J Appl Physiol, 104:1087-1093.
3: Marqueti RC, Prestes J, Wang CC, Ramos OH, Perez SE, Nakagaki WR, Carvalho HF, Selistre-de-Araujo HS (2010). Biomechanical responses of different rat tendons to nandrolone decanoate and load exercise. Scand J Med Sci Sports, 29.
4: Marqueti RC, Parizotto NA, Chriguer RS, Perez SEA, Selistre-de-Araujo HS (2006) Androgenic-anabolic steroids associated with mechanical loading inhibit matrix metallopeptidase activity and affect the remodeling of the Achilles tendon in rats. Am J Sport Med, 34:1274-1280.
5: Oikarinen A, Autio P, Vuori J, Va¨a¨na¨nen K, Risteli L, Kiistala U, Risteli J (1992) Systemic glucocorticoid treatment decreases serum concentrations of carboxyterminal propeptide of type I procollagen and aminoterminal propeptide of type III procollagen. Br J Dermatol, 126:172-178.
6: Marqueti RC, Heinemeier KM, Durigan JL, de Andrade Perez SE, Schjerling P, Kjaer M, Carvalho HF, Selistre-de-Araujo HS. Erratum to: Gene expression in distinct regions of rat tendons in response to jump training combined with anabolic androgenic steroid administration. Eur J Appl Physiol, 2011 Sep 8.
7: Papaspiliopoulos A, Papaparaskeva K, Papadopoulou E, Feroussis J, Papalois A, Zoubos A. The effect of local use of nandrolone decanoate on rotator cuff repair in rabbits. J Invest Surg, 2010 Aug;23(4):204-7.
8: Heinemeier KM, Olesen JL, Schjerling P, Hassad F, Langberg H, Baldwin KM, Kjaer M (2007b) Short-term strength training and the expression of myostatin and IGF-1 isoforms in rat muscle and tendon: differential effects of specific contraction types. J Appl Physiol, 102:573-581.
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RockShawn
Registered
Might make sense. I didn't have jount problems before or during my cycle with deca but after pct and starting next cycle - tons of elbow pain I'd never had before. Now i'm wondering if the deca did damage that i didn't notice till after it was outta my system. I was blaming it on EQ in my last cycle causing my joints to be "drier"
RockShawn
Registered
I didn't mean they felt drier, I was assuming since EQ is a Drier compound that thats what was contributing to my elbow pain. In reality it could have been the tren or the dbol or the hgh or the test I was on at the time as well.
