God? or no God?

[DaMayor]

Discuss.

 

[fufu]

Possible, but there is no tangible evidence to support such claims.

 

[Dane Fletcher]

This has a Wiki entry...

Existence of God - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[JailHouse]

Yes my version of God does exist.

 

[Arnold]

Discuss.

there is nothing to discuss, you either have faith in a higher power, e.g. god, or you don't.

 

[fufu]

there is nothing to discuss, you either have faith in a higher power, e.g. god, or you don't.

That is a very ignorant statement. There are plenty things to discuss.

For example - through discussion one can gain perspective on their own beliefs and possibly re-evaluate what they hold true, and why.

People often don't do this because they are tied emotionally to their ideas.

 

[tomuchgear]

happy endings higher powers all bullshit. there is not higher power watching over any one. its all some thing people look to when there life goes to shit. a scape goat.

 

[KelJu]

Causality leads me to believe there is a God. The greatest thinkers throughout history believed in causality. Even physics agrees that causality exist.

Everything that happens is the cause of something else. Like pool balls bouncing off each other. If you retrace each action back to its cause, you eventually lead back to either infinity or the first cause. Both concepts violate logical and scientific laws. Einstein said that the beginning existed outside time and space in eternity.

Whatever exist in eternity... that thing that existed without ever having to be created is God, in my opinion. God is the entity that broke the balls up on the pool table. What is Gods nature? Who the fuck knows, but I haven't heard a religion make a reasonable claim yet to God's nature, and I doubt one ever will.

 

[fufu]

Causality leads me to believe there is a God. The greatest thinkers throughout history believed in causality. Even physics agrees that causality exist.

Everything that happens is the cause of something else. Like pool balls bouncing off each other. If you retrace each action back to its cause, you eventually lead back to either infinity or the first cause. Both concepts violate logical and scientific laws. Einstein said that the beginning existed outside time and space in eternity.

Whatever exist in eternity... that thing that existed without ever having to be created is God, in my opinion. God is the entity that broke the balls up on the pool table. What is Gods nature? Who the fuck knows, but I haven't heard a religion make a reasonable claim yet to God's nature, and I doubt one ever will.

True, but if you look through history many of the greatest minds concluded God existed, and had an affect on the universe, when they came to the extent of their own knowledge. Then down the road, another mind will go further than the previous and identifty the physical reasons for whatever the previous mind could not comprehend. As far as I am concerned, what put the universe in motion is something we can't comprehend, yet. Just like anything else previous. That, IMO, is no reason to decide God made it so.

God is often a credit to the extent of knowledge one can muster. There is a term for it...something like, "God of the Unknown", or, "God of of the Valley".

This is just one aspect, though. I'm open to the idea that even though physical science can determine cause and affect that doesn't mean there isn't some sort of higher consciousness, or several.

On that note, consciousness is a strange thing. It is kind of funny that humans believe there to be some sort of higher power controlling things when we have a very limited understanding of consciousness ourselves. We only have ourselves to take information of it from. We haven't seen any other beings which gives us a very limited context on the subject. It is a strange situation.

 

[fufu]

Causality leads me to believe there is a God. The greatest thinkers throughout history believed in causality. Even physics agrees that causality exist.

Everything that happens is the cause of something else. Like pool balls bouncing off each other. If you retrace each action back to its cause, you eventually lead back to either infinity or the first cause. Both concepts violate logical and scientific laws. Einstein said that the beginning existed outside time and space in eternity.

Whatever exist in eternity... that thing that existed without ever having to be created is God, in my opinion. God is the entity that broke the balls up on the pool table. What is Gods nature? Who the fuck knows, but I haven't heard a religion make a reasonable claim yet to God's nature, and I doubt one ever will.

True, but if you look through history many of the greatest minds concluded God existed, and had an affect on the universe, when they came to the extent of their own knowledge. Then down the road, another mind will go further than the previous and identifty the physical reasons for whatever the previous mind could not comprehend. As far as I am concerned, what put the universe in motion is something we can't comprehend, yet. Just like anything else previous, lightning, stars, gravity. That, IMO, is no reason to decide God made it so.

God is often a credit to the extent of knowledge one can muster. There is a term for it...something like, "God of the Unknown", or, "God of of the Valley".

This is just one aspect, though. I'm open to the idea that even though physical science can determine cause and affect that doesn't mean there isn't some sort of higher consciousness, or several.

On that note, consciousness is a strange thing. It is kind of funny that humans believe there to be some sort of higher power controlling things when we have a very limited understanding of consciousness ourselves. We only have ourselves to take information of it from. We haven't seen any other beings which gives us a very limited context on the subject. It is a strange situation.

 

[BoneCrusher]

God has always existed. In the days of primitive man God gave fire. His name was different, and he often had peers ... but it was God that gifted the recipient with that which was needed. As our own awareness grew and our ability to figure shit out grew along with it, we moved the lines of what was from God and what was of our own design or the result of a natural happenstance ever more outward. Now we know that God didn't create the fire in our oven, some Chinese guy did it for $7.87 a week. God didn't create the energy that fuels that fire, it comes from the union guys at the power plant/natural gas company. Our souls, life and death on the other hand ... those are still in the privy of God's determination. Mainly, because we haven't yet figured out how to manage these things. We will some day have the physics behind death sorted out and when we do it'll likely get outsourced to India leaving God without a job.

From another perspective, lets flash from the benevolent God gifted fire to Brother K's pool ball analogy. God in essence was the embodiment of the energy that effected the change of condition of each respective stick, but (as Brother K asked) what was the progenitor of that essence? Did God have a daddy or a grandpa? Did God's daddy have a wife or a mistress? Did god's daddy have bowel movements or a bad case of acne while in his teens? Brother K you don't have the ______ (insert word of choice there) to reach back that far and are willing to let your lines stop right there at that point of historical knowledge and accept God. That is our collective philosophical line, based on our science, our religion, and the cultural belief systems all through the ages. The big bang where, like on the maps of old, we know nothing about what lies beyond... "there be dragons".

I'm guessing that 100 years from now the lines of what we believe to be the privy of God's work and what we consider common knowledge will be moved yet again. God will still be around, we as a species still need something after death to look forward too, but his job description will have changed yet again. Once we do figure out how to alter death, extend life into the millenniums ... God will be standing next to Zeus and Odin wearing an "I'll work for food sign" while swearing at his entry in snopes.

 

[Arnold]

That is a very ignorant statement. There are plenty things to discuss.

For example - through discussion one can gain perspective on their own beliefs and possibly re-evaluate what they hold true, and why.

People often don't do this because they are tied emotionally to their ideas.

the point is you cannot prove nor disprove the existence of god, so the question is stupid.

 

[lnvanry]

There is definitely a Grand Architect...I just don't think this higher power is something we can grasp.

 

[Hoglander]

I don't know if there is and I've studied the Bible extensively as part of my up bringing. I do believe in good vs evil. So if there is a God and he doesn't like me than he is not God but certainly the Devil.

 

[Witmaster]

For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God himself has made it plain to them.

For since the creation of the world God's invisible attributes-his eternal power and divine nature-have been understood and observed by what he made, so that people are without excuse.
-- Romans 1:19-20

O Lord my God, when I in awesome wonder,
Consider all the worlds Thy hands have made,
Thy power throughout the universe displayed,
Then sings my soul my Saviour God to Thee,
How great Thou art!
--S. K. Hine

Prince actually nailed it.

you either have faith in a higher power, e.g. god, or you don't

 

[Witchblade]

This again?

 

[tallcall]

Discuss.

Yes....I'm here

 

[maniclion]

We are all pieces of the whole that was a god. This god destroyed itself in a big bang in an attempt to look within and try to understand better. You can yourself feel this presence if you concentrate hard enough, you can feel it within and surrounding you. Our purpose if to understand everything in our universe and to eventually build upon that knowledge to make the whole once more. When we achieve that this god will be better prepared to achieve whatever goals it and the gods in it's own dimension have to achieve. Who's to say that their is one god or no god or any gods at all. All that I know is we have choices, we can do good or we can do evil....we can create, we can destroy or we can be dormant.... To me our ability create is our closest link to what may be a god....

 

[fufu]

the point is you cannot prove nor disprove the existence of god, so the question is stupid.

Even if that is so, things can still be learned from a discussion.

 

[mcguin]

God and religion are two different things in my opinion, does anyone agree? I believe that there is something out there, something which we aren't quite capable of figuring out, but I hold no faith when it comes to an established religion. I want to make it clear that there must be a fine line drawn between believing in god or a higher power and belonging to a religion.

I'm going to get bashed for this but I dont care, I think that religion is nothing but a business. Every religion preaches about peace and what god wants, but yet every religion has something bad to say about the other religion. God preaches peace among people in various religions yet religion is what causes division among people. How can we do whats right and practice our morals when our very own religions seperate us as men and women. There's just a little piece of my mind, but I can go on and on about god, and about religion.

 

[fufu]

God and religion are two different things in my opinion, does anyone agree? I believe that there is something out there, something which we aren't quite capable of figuring out, but I hold no faith when it comes to an established religion. I want to make it clear that there must be a fine line drawn between believing in god or a higher power and belonging to a religion.

I'm going to get bashed for this but I dont care, I think that religion is nothing but a business. Every religion preaches about peace and what god wants, but yet every religion has something bad to say about the other religion. God preaches peace among people in various religions yet religion is what causes division among people. How can we do whats right and practice our morals when our very own religions seperate us as men and women. There's just a little piece of my mind, but I can go on and on about god, and about religion.

I agree with you. Ideally, religion is a great idea. A practice of constant devotion to a set of moral beliefs deemed "right". I think it's no secret that these ideaologies get misconstrued and exploited for self gain.

The word religion to me is really tarnished and I would never use it in describing my own beliefs. Having a set of a beliefs is a very empowering and identifying thing to have. However, I think those beliefs should self saught, not saught from others. Otherwise, does it really mean anything? Why have someone form your beliefs for you. Doing it the hard way is the only real way, and that is through years of experience and thought, keeping a painfully open and honest mind on life.

 

[BoneCrusher]

I'm 1 of 2 ... who's the other 1? Stand up and be counted

 

[fufu]

I'm 1 out of nothing. I'd need to vote "maybe", but there is no option for me.

 

[RasPlasch]

Thinking about this topic hurts my brain. Because I start to thinking....what was there before the big bang? Or whatever you think created the universe.

 

[tucker01]

I haven't a clue if there is one or not.

Is it possible there is one sure, but I see no reason in making that leap of faith.

I just live my life trying to be a good parent and citizen.

 

[Witchblade]

Thinking about this topic hurts my brain. Because I start to thinking....what was there before the big bang? Or whatever you think created the universe.

Causality is a human way of thinking, not a concrete and definite law of the universe. Read the work of Kant and Hume on the topic. The universe might as well be a continuum, something without beginning or end, or something that goes around in circles. Moreover, there might very well be a beginning (and an end or a reboot).

First Cause, or Cosmological Argument
The First Cause, or Cosmological Argument, says that everything has a cause, and, since we supposedly canâ??????t have an infinite series of causes stretching into the past, a god must be the first cause â?????? an uncaused cause. This argument was described by Aristotle, and has at least four problems.

The main problem of the First Cause Argument is the idea that every event has a cause. As we discovered in the 20th century, the universe is actually ruled at the bottom level by quantum mechanics, in which itâ??????s possible for events to have no cause. An obvious example of quantum mechanics in action is the radioactive decay of a uranium atom. There is no previous cause for each such event, and we can only predict it with probability. The averaging of quantum effects gives us the Newtonian experience that we have. However, Newtonian physics does not control the universe; quantum mechanics and Einsteinian relativity do. We now know that the universe has an intrinsic, bottom level of uncertainty that cannot be bypassed. Quantum mechanics also shows us that objects can appear out of nothing and then disappear back into nothing. Even in supposedly empty space, virtual particles are continuously appearing and disappearing. This is a real and measurable process, via what are known as the Casimir effect and the Lamb shift.

The beginning of the observable universe â?????? of all the matter and energy in it and even of time itself â?????? is called the Big Bang. The science of quantum mechanics is only a century old, and already we've been able to get extremely close to understanding the beginning of the observable universe â?????? with no god needed. How close can we get? Approximately a billionth of a trillionth of a trillionth of a second after the Big Bang. The Big Bang theory is supported by extensive data. Six prominent facts are:

# The red shift of almost all galaxies â?????? getting greater as their distance increases.
- This shows that the galaxies are flying away from each other â?????? at greater speeds at greater distances.
# The cosmic microwave background radiation.
- This is a remnant of the radiation from the Big Bang, and has cooled over time to the exact temperature predicted.
# The variations in the cosmic microwave background radiation.
- These variations fit theoretical predictions, and were caused by quantum differences near the start of Big Bang.
# The proportions of the lightest elements and isotopes.
- This helps show that the calculations for nuclear interactions immediately following the Big Bang are correct.
# The changes in galaxies as we look further away (and thus back in time), with distant galaxies more primitive.
- This shows some of the changes in the universe since the Big Bang, and confirms the deep time of the universe.
# The change in the apparent speed of type 1a supernova as we look back in time, with distant supernova exploding more slowly.
- This shows that the light has been stretched out by the expansion of space over billions of years.

The physicist and cosmologist Alan Guth of MIT has put forth the scientific theory, called Inflation, that the Big Bang was just the result of a random quantum event called a vacuum fluctuation â?????? with no cause, created out of the space vacuum, and with a total energy of zero. Even tho this doesnâ??????t make sense in the Newtonian physics of our experience of the world, it does make sense in quantum mechanics and Einsteinâ??????s general relativity. In relativity, gravity is negative energy and matter is positive energy. Because the two seem to be equal in absolute total value, our observable universe appears balanced to the sum of zero. Our universe could thus have come into existence without violating conservation of mass and energy â?????? with the matter of the universe condensing out of the positive energy as the universe cooled. There is also excellent experimental and theoretical evidence to support Inflation Theory. We may eventually determine that Inflation Theory is wrong or incomplete, and we may never be able to completely understand the actual beginning; it could be that we're not smart enough or that the physical science necessary is not possible for us to do. But, that doesnâ??????t mean that a god caused the Big Bang â?????? any more than our past lack of understanding meant that a god caused lightning.

The next problem of the First Cause Argument is the assumption that an infinite chain of events is impossible. This argument is made moot by the Big Bang, which negates the need for considering an infinite chain of events in our universe. Because time started with the Big Bang, any question of what happened before is nonsensical â?????? much like asking what is north of the North Pole. Also, many cosmologists have proposed that our universe could be part of a much larger, super and perhaps eternal meta-universe; we certainly donâ??????t know for sure, and may never know. However, this meta-universe would allow infinite chains of events.

Another problem comes from the common definition of God as eternal, perfect and unchanging. If these qualities were true, then why would God need a universe and how could God change from not needing a universe to needing one? This god would have existed for an eternity and then decided to create the universe.

The last problem with the First Cause Argument lies in its assumption that this eternal god exists, something that it is trying to prove. This is known as begging the question. Even a child can ask, â?????If God created the universe, then who created God?â??? If the answer is that God is uncaused, then the same answer could certainly be applied to the existence of the universe â?????? that it is uncaused. Besides, which god are we talking about? People using the First Cause Argument always make the assumption that their god did the creating. Muslims think that Allah created the universe. Hindus think that Brahma did it. Christians and Jews think that Yahweh did it. Most religions have a story of how their god created the universe. The idea of a god as creator of the universe makes for a good tale, but it obviously tells us little about the characteristics of that god. What they are doing is explaining one mystery with a bigger mystery, and that is fallacious logic.

Good site altogether BTW.

More atheist wit:

Gods don't kill people; people with gods kill people!

Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions.

Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree. â?????? unknown

"Imagine a world in which generations of human beings come to believe that certain films were made by God or that specific software was coded by him. Imagine a future in which millions of our descendants murder each other over rival interpretations of Star Wars or Windows 98. Could anything â?????? anything â?????? be more ridiculous? And yet, this would be no more ridiculous than the world we are living in."
â?????? Sam Harris, The End of Faith

"Religion is the process of unconscious wish fulfillment, where, for certain people, if the process did not take place it would put them in self-danger of coming to mental harm, being unable to cope with the idea of a godless, purposeless life."
â?????? Sigmund Freud

Pope Benedict XVI recently stated the Church had not imposed itself on the indigenous peoples of the Americas. He said that the natives had welcomed the arrival of European priests at the time of the conquest as they were "silently longing" for Christianity. [Right, and rape victims "silently long" for rape.]

And finally...

 

[Chevrolet]

no god.

 

[KelJu]

Causality is a human way of thinking, not a concrete and definite law of the universe. Read the work of Kant and Hume on the topic. The universe might as well be a continuum, something without beginning or end, or something that goes around in circles. Moreover, there might very well be a beginning (and an end or a reboot).



Good site altogether BTW.

More atheist wit:



And finally...

God damn I miss philosophy. Your post motivated me to download a ton of philosophy audio torrents. I am going to listen to them at work while I refinish antiques.

My job has one huge perk. Little to no thinking involved. I have learned more in the last 8 months working while listening to my mp3 player than I did in two semesters of college going to class 12 hours a week.