Greatest Bodybuilder Ever

[gr81]

you can say that relative to other lifters of the time Reeves was the best, and that he was a pioneer of the sport, all of that may be true and he deserves our respect for that no question. But to say he was the "best BB" whatever that means, is an unfounded statement. Thats like saying that George Mikan was the best center ever, when there are twenty guys in teh NBA now that are better athletes than him. Doesn't take away from what he did at the time, but we as humans/athletes have evolved and to compare someone like Reeves to RC or anyone in the modern are is not a fair comparison at all, sorry madden.

PS, if you ever believe what a BB says baout drug use in a magazine you are niave.

 

[madden player]

...PS, if you ever believe what a BB says baout drug use in a magazine you are niave.

PS...For you and Flex I never said in any of my posts concerning this issue that Revees said he was natural because he wrote for a natural mag, what I was stating was he doesn't approve of the use of steroids and what they have done to the sport. Mike Mentzer wrote for the same natural mag along with many other drug using bodybuilders and am I trying to convince anyone that they were natural??

I don't care what a bodybuilder says about drug use in a mag...who is going to go on the record and give up all the dirty little details of their illegal habits??

I responded to a bullshit statement that Arnold admited to Revees's steroid use. That is total and absolute bullshit. I know that no one cares if he used drugs or not but just to let you know, steroids as a performance enhancer were not even know about when Revees dominated bodybuilding in the late 40's.

 

[madden player]

...But He said: cuz he wrote in a natty mag, he didnt take steroids.
he would blow away natty bb's of today (which i used you)

Seriously, can you read??..Refer back to the original post regarding this matter and you will read that I said that: 1. Revees wrote for a natural mag
2. He does not approve of the use of steroids...UNDERSTAND???

As far as "blowing away" natural bodybuilders of today, he would easily compete with the biggest naturals of today. Revees was a competitive bodybuilder remember (Mr. America , Mr. World, Mr Universe) and like all of the great bodybuilders he presented the judges with what they were looking for on the day of the contest. If the judges wanted more size in the late 40's he most surely would have shown up bigger.

Like Schwarzenegger, Revees wanted to be a movie star, but to be considered not too "Freaky" by the movie folks of his day he had to cut his bodybuilding career short and limit his muscular size...don't let pics of Revees from his movie days fool you, look up some of his competition photos. He had no rivals during his short reign at the top of the bodybuilding world.

 

[gr81]

I know that no one cares if he used drugs or not but just to let you know, steroids as a performance enhancer were not even know about when Revees dominated bodybuilding in the late 40's.

acutally D-bol has been around since that time more or less, but whether he juiced or not is trivial and like you said no one cares. Steroids are not performance enhancers either, they are aesthetic enhancers. The term performance enhancing drug is a term that the anti-doping agendies have been shoving down the publics throat in order to sway opinion in a negative aspect.

look madden, i am nto here to argu or beef with you bro, I respect your opinion and I validated it with my last post, saying you had merit. you really need to calm down thou and stop insulting people. there is NO right or wrong in a thread like this, who you like is who you like and lets respect other peoples views. Non one is saying he wasn't great for his time, so why are you trippin about it. Flex knows a great deal about this game and its history, he is a student of the sport to the fullest so theres no need to insult his intelligence. you would get more respect if you articulated your opinion without resorting to name calling and screaming right away dude, just a tip. peace

 

[madden player]

acutally D-bol has been around since that time more or less...

Dianabol (DBOL) was developed by John Ziegler and released by the pharm company Ciba in 1956 so that fact that Revees may or may not have used steroids during his bodybuilding career is more than just trivial, it is almost next to impossible.

As far as insults are concerned, I find lies to be insulting. I find it insulting that someone questions my intelligence by saying some dumb over used saying on this site "you must be really stupid to believe everything you read in muscle mags"...Really you don't say, I would have never thought that everything I read was gospel truth..guess I am just another dumb Canadian.

On the matter of respect, I could care less what anyone on here thinks..you are not my friends and family so it matters little or nothing to me. The helpfull considerate people on here know who they are and I respect them very much for all the time they spend answering silly repetitive questions that noobs continue to ask.

 

[gr81]

well actually smart ass, if you really wana get into the history of it, we can.. Steroids were FIRST developed by the Germans in the 1930's and experimented with during that time and throughout WW2 on solciers and prisoners. Your right, Zeigler didn't come around until the mid 50's, but Russian and European athletes were using the shit before his labs started producing Methandrostenolone. I am not saying he used, b/c I bet that he didn't, but thats neither here nor there. Your acting like a little bitch, I tried to be civil and calm with you, but apparently anyone who dares to question what you say is an idiot and therefore deserves the verbal lashing. no one is lying to you, this thread is based on opinion and for you to tell someone else their opinion is wrong is as stupid as it is meaningless. have a nice day

 

[Duncans Donuts]

Another dumb Canadian.

No, I'm just kidding. But I remember hearing and reading several times that Reeves used steroids, though you are right, Ziegler developed dianabol in the 50s.

The problem with your argument is that Dianabol was not the first roid, just the first popular one. IMO.

 

[madden player]

I think scientists were aware of the role testosterone played in the human body almost 100 yrs ago. I think I read somewhere of a doctor extracting testosterone from dog testis??...

Yes Prof Gr81 you are semi correct on the Germans and them being the first to use steroids. From what I have read they were developed by German researchers at the tail end of WW2 to combat the wasting away of Jewish concentration camp survivors.

The earliest I can trace back the use of AAS drugs in sport is the early 50's and like you said it was isolated to some european and russian athletes. The use of steroids did not become popular with athletes until Ziegler came back from Russia with stories of this incredible substance Russian athletes attribute their phenomenal success to.

I wish GR81 you would back your statement up..."..this thread is based on opinion and for you to tell someone else their opinion is wrong is as stupid as it is meaninless.."??
WTF.. Where did I tell someone their opinion is wrong??..Someone said "Arnold said Revees use steroids" I hope you don't think that was opinion do you??..That was bullshit, and I wanted that person to elaborate!!!

Duncan the arguement was never over DBOL being the first steroid used, I think I mentioned DBOL in one of my earlier posts...I think I said something sarcastic like Revees and LeLanne were eating handfulls of DBOL back in the 40's to the comment that Revees used drugs because Arnold said so. According to some, I misunderstood that statement as fact, I guess it was supposed to be opinion??

To sum it all up, I guess around here you can say that the Pope uses steroids because Arnold said so..and whatever you do don't question lies and bullshit or you will be called out as someone who says others opinion is wrong.

 

[Flex]

Seriously, can you read??..Refer back to the original post regarding this matter and you will read that I said that: 1. Revees wrote for a natural mag
2. He does not approve of the use of steroids...UNDERSTAND???

Let's try this once and for all.

You're telling me b/c...:
1. Revees wrote for a natural mag
2. He "does not approve" of the use of steroids
...he didn't take steroids?

again, i'm NOT SAYING HE DID. But you wanna talk about speculative opinion? There's no credibility in your statement whatsoever. Arnold and Ronnie also write for natty mags. They also both "don't approve" of steroids. Does that mean they never took them?

YOU ARE ARGUEING THE SAME POINT I'M TRYING TO MAKE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Just because people say something (ie Arnold>Reeves took steroids.......or.......Madden>Reeves didn't take steroids) DOESNT MEAN IT HAPPENED.

Arnold said he did b/c whatever. You said he didn't b/c he wrote in mags and "didnt" approve.

 

[madden player]

...Steroids are not performance enhancers either, they are aesthetic enhancers...

Well I have seen a hella lot of ugly athletes with not very aesthetically pleasing bodies..damn marathon runners and ping pong players use steroids for the performance enhancing properties, I doubt very much they are risking their health and wellness for the aesthetic benifits.

Now bodybuilding on the other hand differs from most or all other sports and the arguement could be made that steroids are use primarily for the aesthetic enhancing benifits.

 

[Flex]

As far as "blowing away" natural bodybuilders of today, he would easily compete with the biggest naturals of today.

EASILY compete today? Once again, DEFINITELY NOT. there's guys all over my one gym in one small part of the US that are as big or bigger than Reeves.

I know he's your "hero", but come on, man. Arnold is my absolute favorite, but at least I'm realistic. If he were to compete today with the physique he had back then, he'd look tiny.

 

[Flex]

Well I have seen a hella lot of ugly athletes with not very aesthetically pleasing bodies..damn marathon runners and ping pong players use steroids for the performance enhancing properties, I doubt very much they are risking their health and wellness for the aesthetic benifits.

Now bodybuilding on the other hand differs from most or all other sports and the arguement could be made that steroids are use primarily for the aesthetic enhancing benifits.

What the Gr81 meant about aes. enhancing vs. perf. enhancing is b/c thats exactly what they are.

Steroids won't make Mark McGwire hit more home runs. They WILL make him stronger, so if he can get a hold of a ball, it MAY go farther.

Steroids won't make a sprinter run faster. They WILL make them stronger, so possibly they can have more muscle/less fat, thus improving there times.

 

[madden player]

Let's try this once and for all.

You're telling me b/c...:
1. Revees wrote for a natural mag
2. He "does not approve" of the use of steroids
...he didn't take steroids?...

I think you are missing the point..Mentzer, Haney, too many top well known drug abusers wrote for the same mag at the same time as Revees. They all were paid to write anti-drug articles, and I wouldn't try and argue and convince someone that Mentzer and Haney were steroid free. The fact is that Revees came before drugs played an important part of bodybuilding.

Revees was the only writer for the all natural muscular development mag that reached the top of the bodybuilding world drug free..he was very proud of the fact that he never used steroids and he made it very clear in his writings his thoughts on steroid users, unlike the other bodybuilder/writers at the mag they were just talking out of their ass and recieving a paycheck (the proof of this is that many of the anti-drug bodybuilders who wrote for the all natural mag turned ship when the mag went the otherway and they started praising and almost promoting drug use)...

My point about Revees was that if you read any of his articles that he wrote for all natural muscular development you would know that he HATED what was happening to the sport at the professional level... professional bodybuilders in his day were the supreme symbol of health/strength/fitness.

He had no regrets about past drug use because there was no past drug use. I am sorry that I made you think that I think that if someone writes for a natural mag that they must of been natural for life...Wouldn't it be speculative opinion on your part to think that I think they were all natural because they wrote for a natural mag??

...Again my point about the Revees writings were that he hated steroids and their users. No other writer in the mag had the balls to call out pro bodybuilders the way he did..he actually had an open challenge for any pro bodybuilder to come to his ranch and try and keep up to him and as far as I know no one took the challenge.

NO WHERE DID I SAY THAT HE WAS NATURAL BECAUSE HE WROTE FOR A NATURAL MAG..I SAID FROM HIS WRITINGS THAT HE DISLIKED STEROIDS...I said he was natural because he said he was natural for life, not one of these bodybuilders that just didn't know how these then legal substances were going to effect their health 20-30 yrs later and then they say "Oh I don't approve of their use now... ...I wish I knew then that they were going to cause kidney failure/heart disease..ect"

I am vary aware of Revees being one of Arnolds idols but Revees never used steroids and Arnold never admited to Revees using steroids...it was that bullshit comment that got my goat.

 

[Arnold]

I guess I am failing to see why it's such a big deal if a bodybuilder used/uses steroids or not?

Steroids do no make a champion; hard work, discipline, dedication and genetics do.

 

[madden player]

EASILY compete today? Once again, DEFINITELY NOT. there's guys all over my one gym in one small part of the US that are as big or bigger than Reeves.

I know he's your "hero", but come on, man. Arnold is my absolute favorite, but at least I'm realistic. If he were to compete today with the physique he had back then, he'd look tiny.

I believe that the best ever would still be the best ever no matter when in history they competed. Arnold and Revees had no rivals in there prime. Sure they would look tiny compared to today's bodybuilders with their physiques from the past but I believe with the different judging standards of today and all the advancements in training/nutrition/supplementation that they would show up on stage well suited and ready to compete with today's pros. They would not show up with a body that was the ideal for 1950 they would most definately step up because they were champions mind and body.

 

[madden player]

I guess I am failing to see why it's such a big deal if a bodybuilder used/uses steroids or not?

Steroids do no make a champion; hard work, discipline, dedication and genetics do.

It is not a big deal. I happen to think that alcohol/tobacco and a million other things are more of a health concern then steroids.

I do think it is a big deal when someone puts words into others mouth..all I wanted was someone to back the statement up the Arnold said Revees used drugs.

Steroids do not make champs. All the stuff you mentioned above makes a champ, obviously all great bodybuilders had all the right stuff and I think that it was their will and dedication that got them where they were...so I believe if all the greats could be cloned, set in a modern enviroment with all things being equal you would have one hell of a comp.

 

[Flex]

with the different judging standards of today and all the advancements in training/nutrition/supplementation that they would show up on stage well suited and ready to compete with today's pros.

They would not show up with a body that was the ideal for 1950 they would most definately step up because they were champions mind and body.

with the different standards of today? you kwno what today's judges want? MASS

I'm not talking what kind of body they COULD have. i was talking bout what they DID have. I've stated in a previous post that IMO Arnold with today's drugs/supps/diets/knowledge could compete with today's guys. all else constant, with today's steroids Arnold could've been HUGE.

Besides, how could Reeves drastically improve his physique? you're hellbent that he never juiced. so he could eat all the food in the world and not even come close to today's guys.....

 

[madden player]

...I've stated in a previous post that IMO Arnold with today's drugs/supps/diets/knowledge could compete with today's guys. all else constant, with today's steroids Arnold could've been HUGE...

Besides, how could Reeves drastically improve his physique?...

Well first off lets drop drugs from the equation..It is kind of a noob assumption to thing that drugs make an athlete what he/she is. Would Arnold really look like Arnold with GH belly??..definately not. If you are such an Arnold fan you would know that he doesn't care too much for the bloated distended abs of todays pro bodybuilders.

To think that one gets successful in the ranks of bodybuilding or any sport with drugs (they certainly help..I can't argue that) doesn't give credit to the intense desire that ALL champions through history possesed. Their desire to be the best can not be matched and it doesn't come from an injection.

Champions thrive on competition, and Reeves was no exception. Reeves could have easily taken his physique another decade ahead of his time but a career in the movies was far more profitable than bodybuilding. You ask how Reeves could drastically improve his physique to compete with today's bodybuilders and the answer is simple. Competition!!

The same thing is true for Arnold and all the greats (I feel silly calling them warriors when a couple of real legitimate young men/women warriors are dying each day in the desert, but in a way that is what they are) they don't fear or run from a challenge they step up. If Reeves or Arnold knew what the competition had in store for them(2004), I think they would put a competitive package on stage or die trying..don't under estimate the power and motivation behind close competition.

 

[madden player]

What the Gr81 meant about aes. enhancing vs. perf. enhancing is b/c thats exactly what they are...

Is this fact or opinion??...You do know that steroids are mood altering drugs??..Most sports that I can think about require as much mental toughness/readiness as physical prowess. To say that steroids are only an aesthetic enhancer is like "putting the cart in front of the horse" ...it is like you are saying that steroids don't effect productive aggression and reaction times. I have never used steroids but even I know that they are a powerful performance enhancer (both mental and physical)...besides didn't you start some thread "A Juicers tale"??..didn't you say that you felt like a million bucks on cycle??...I have read an article about steroids and women and one women said that she could feel the testosterone effecting her aggression and sex drive within hours, I am sure it was not from new found confidence from a leaner stronger body, because a couple hours is not enough time for any great changes in body composition but the test had enough time to reach androgen receptors in the brain and effect mood.

 

[gr81]

You do know that steroids are mood altering drugs??..Most sports that I can think about require as much mental toughness/readiness as physical prowess. To say that steroids are only an aesthetic enhancer is like "putting the cart in front of the horse" ...it is like you are saying that steroids don't effect productive aggression and reaction times. I have never used steroids but even I know that they are a powerful performance enhancer (both mental and physical)...

This is nonsense, and I especially love how its coming from the mouth of someone who has never used steroids. How can you possibly comment. Steroids do NOT make you metally tougher, and its ridiculous to imply otherwise. Some people may become more aggressive, some may not. alot of it has to do with the fact that you are mentally aproaching things differently b/c of the fact that you are on. The fact is that if you already have an aggressive disposition to begin with the AAS may feed on that, but it is not an absolute by any means.. can you please explain to me how free bound testosterone chemically makes you mentally "tougher" as you put it

 

[madden player]

...can you please explain to me how free bound testosterone chemically makes you mentally "tougher" as you put it

Free bound testosterone??..WTF..I am not an endrocrinologist but if test was bound how could it be free??...and I never said anything about "free bound testosterone" I said testosterone reaches androgen receptors in the brain ..again I am no endrocrinologist but there is androgen receptors in the brain. Do you honestly think that steroids are not a mood altering drug??..Unless every textbook I ever read was wrong you are right.

It is a fact that hormones effect mood..Did you ever here of "roid rage"..I know the media overblows the whole issue of "roid rage" but it does exist..If you have a girlfriend/wife you may have heard of a little thing called PMS. It is a fact that if you give a female songbird testosterone it will start singing the male bird call (that should be reason enough to deter any female from ever adding androgens to there system..the endrocrine system is in a delicate balance and you really shouldn't be messing with it)...what hormone do you think is involved with aggressive mating behavior in the wild??..If you said Testosterone you are correct (you can give yourself a cookie for getting this far)..well it is not just Testosterone it self sometimes that causes the aggressive behavior in animals but it is always an androgen..For example high levels of the hormone androstenedione are responsible for making Hyena's ultra aggressive and the females actually have a false penis because of the high andro.

There are a million examples from nature that I can give you supporting the fact that steroids effect mood/aggression. In the 1976 olympics in Montreal (that would be the Montreal in Canada..give yourself another cookie if you know your geography) the east german team doped their athletes and as a final blast of hormones to enhance physical/mental readiness the used androstenedione in the form of a nasal spray, it worked well if you could handle the headaches that some of the athletes claimed to be a side effect.

Honestly I could go on for days but I am getting tired of this thread and I think you have no clue, because if you think hormones, especially androgens don't make you more aggressive/alter your mood (there is a small % of the population that can not handle steroids no matter how mild. It changes there behavior so much that friends family are dumbfounded..this is also true with other drugs like alcohol/cocaine..ect. a small % cannot handle the drugs period)..I even think I mentioned in a previous post in this thread that it also increases productive aggression (this would be an increase in drive/motivation)..that is a fact not an opinion.

 

[Duncans Donuts]

There are a lot of conflicting studies on roid rage. To present anything in this regard as fact and not opinion might be a be considered distorting a point to proove your own. Unfortunately nothing is really concrete.

J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 1996 Oct;81(10):3754-8.

The effects of supraphysiological doses of testosterone on angry behavior in healthy eugonadal men--a clinical research center study.

Tricker R, Casaburi R, Storer TW, Clevenger B, Berman N, Shirazi A, Bhasin S.

Division of Endocrinology, Charles R. Drew University of Medicine and Science, Los Angeles, California 90059, USA.

Anecdotal reports of "roid rage" and violent crimes by androgenic steroid users have brought attention to the relationship between anabolic steroid use and angry outbursts. However, testosterone effects on human aggression remain controversial. Previous studies have been criticized because of the low androgen doses, lack of placebo control or blinding, and inclusion of competitive athletes and those with preexisting psychopathology. To overcome these pitfalls, we used a double-blind, placebo-controlled design, excluded competitive athletes and those with psychiatric disorders, and used 600 mg testosterone enanthate (TE)/week. Forty-three eugonadal men, 19-40 yr, were randomized to 1 of 4 groups: Group I, placebo, no exercise; Group II, TE, no exercise; Group III, placebo, exercise; Group IV, TE plus exercise. Exercise consisted of thrice weekly strength training sessions. The Multi-Dimensional Anger Inventory (MAI), which includes 5 different dimensions of anger (inward anger, outward anger, anger arousal, hostile outlook, and anger eliciting situations), and a Mood Inventory (MI), which includes items related to mood and behavior, were administered to subjects before, during, and after the 10 week intervention. The subject's significant other (spouse, live-in partner, or parent) also answered the same questions about the subject's mood and behavior (Observer Mood Inventory, OMI). No differences were observed between exercising and nonexercising and between placebo and TE treated subjects for any of the 5 subdomains of MAI. Overall there were no significant changes in MI or OMI during the treatment period in any group. Conclusion: Supraphysiological doses of testosterone, when administered to normal men in a controlled setting, do not increase angry behavior. These data do not exclude the possibility that still higher doses of multiple steroids might provoke angry behavior in men with preexisting psychopathology.

 

[madden player]

I agree more research has to be done, but from a biological point of view the Supraphysiological doses of testosterone have to effect the body/endrocrine system/mood...and like I mentioned and your post mentioned test is not the only androgen that they use.."staking" different androgens will probably have different effects on different individuals.

 

[Flex]

Do you honestly think that steroids are not a mood altering drug??..Unless every textbook I ever read was wrong you are right.

It is a fact that hormones effect mood..Did you ever here of "roid rage"..I know the media overblows the whole issue of "roid rage" but it does exist..If you have a girlfriend/wife you may have heard of a little thing called PMS. It is a fact that if you give a female songbird testosterone it will start singing the male bird call (that should be reason enough to deter any female from ever adding androgens to there system..the endrocrine system is in a delicate balance and you really shouldn't be messing with it)...what hormone do you think is involved with aggressive mating behavior in the wild??..If you said Testosterone you are correct (you can give yourself a cookie for getting this far)..well it is not just Testosterone it self sometimes that causes the aggressive behavior in animals but it is always an androgen..For example high levels of the hormone androstenedione are responsible for making Hyena's ultra aggressive and the females actually have a false penis because of the high andro.

Honestly I could go on for days but I am getting tired of this thread and I think you have no clue, because if you think hormones, especially androgens don't make you more aggressive/alter your mood (there is a small % of the population that can not handle steroids no matter how mild. It changes there behavior so much that friends family are dumbfounded..this is also true with other drugs like alcohol/cocaine..ect. a small % cannot handle the drugs period)..I even think I mentioned in a previous post in this thread that it also increases productive aggression (this would be an increase in drive/motivation)..that is a fact not an opinion.

bro, don't talk about something you know NOTHING about.

First of all, your so called "mood altering" is b.s. You knwo why i said you feel like a million bucks? Because you wake up and your muscles are pumped. After you train, they swell beyond belief and you feel/look huge. THATS WHY it affects your mood, merely b/c of physical effects.

and your statement on "roid rage" cements your knowledge of steroids. Roid rage is bullshit. Here's what roid rage is: If you're a dick, and you take steroids, you will be a dick when on. If you're not, you won't be. its that simple. type in the search engine a few keywords: car accident, drunk driver, flex etc. i posted a thread a while back when a drunk hit my car while i was "on". You know how i reacted? the SAME way i would've had i not been "on". Sure i was fired up and wanted to kill this kid. But you knwo what my mind said? My mind told me that i would fuckin' kill this kid, esp. cuz i'm "on", therefore i didn't end up doing anything. Had i not been "on", i think i would've went ahead and got arrested for assault. There's your "roid rage".

once again, don't talk about shit you don't know about, where you got your b.s. info outta some book.....

 

[madden player]

I don't think you little car wreck qualifies for any scientific "roid rage" study...If you read my post I said the media overblows the "roid rage". You have your beliefs, and I have mine. I look at it from a biological point of view and you rely on first hand knowledge. Just because I never used or will use steroids doesn't mean I am a complete moron on the subject...

I could keep this arguement going in circles for ever..For me there is enough proof in nature and enough people saying that they become more irratible and in some cases they report certain steroids produce different effects such as a feel of well being or boxer/fighters saying certain drugs really make them more aggressive and less fearful..

I guess natural bodybuilders and steroid bodybuilders will always disagree on the subject of steroids..go figure..I was tempted by steroids just like anyother bodybuilder but after much research it just didn't seem worth.

I know there is others at this site that feel the same as I do..natural bodybuilders are a stubborn persistent bunch, we train sometimes for months/years for what some of the "using" guys can do in weeks.

Maybe there is enough people here at this site to have a natural forum??, then we would never have to get on the topic of steroids and their possible harmfull effects...hardcore natural bodybuilders have some pretty strong beliefs when it comes to steroids, whether or not you or I am right or wrong is meaninless to me because nothing and I mean nothing can change my mind...and I am betting the same holds true for you.

 

[gr81]

Free bound testosterone??..WTF..I am not an endrocrinologist but if test was bound how could it be free??...and I never said anything about "free bound testosterone" I said testosterone reaches androgen receptors in the brain ..again I am no endrocrinologist but there is androgen receptors in the brain. Do you honestly think that steroids are not a mood altering drug??..Unless every textbook I ever read was wrong you are right.

I am not denying that some people may experience some elevated aggressiveness, although i happen to think its more of a placebo effect, and certainly not everyone does experience this. In fact a higher test level brings about feelings of well being and confidence in people. You said that it will increase a person mental toughness, and that is not the case at all, and that statement is unfounded and based on nothing.. you say your not and endocrinologist, neither am I, but I do my research regarding the subject and a, well educated on it. let me say that if you don't even know the relationship of free bound test to teis conversation than you have no place in commenting on this all togather. how do you think the molecules reach the AR receptors in the first place. So we have established that you are not familiar with endocrinology even at an introductory level AND you have never taken the shit, so you can't speak from experience, so why are you arguing with me in the first place. you are right, we are just going back and forth, and I am not really sure what we are arguing over in the first place. you have some valid points, but some thingd you say are unfounded.. oh well I am finished arguing with you

 

[madden player]

I am not denying that some people may experience some elevated aggressiveness, although i happen to think its more of a placebo effect, and certainly not everyone does experience this. In fact a higher test level brings about feelings of well being and confidence in people...

I have done my research on gear also. As a natural bodybuilder I was very interested why gear helps users gain strength faster than a natural. I have a question to ask you because I don't know anything. What is 'free bound' test??..I have heard of 'free' test and 'unbound' test'..I am not saying it doesn't exist but I have never heard of it..You aparently know more than me and I asked you twice now what is 'free bound' test??

"Higher test levels brings about feelings of well being and confidence in people"...Hmmm...Isn't that what I have been saying all along??

 

[gr81]

I have heard of 'free' test and 'unbound' test'..I am not saying it doesn't exist but I have never heard of it..You aparently know more than me and I asked you twice now what is 'free bound' test??

same difference, different wording basically. testosterone molecules in the blood stream that attach to AR receptors. when exogenously recieved, the level of free bound test in your blood stream increases..

"Higher test levels brings about feelings of well being and confidence in people"...Hmmm...Isn't that what I have been saying all along??

I wasn't debating that, I was challenging the statement you made about anabolics increasing your mental toughness.. oh well its all good man

 

[madden player]

..oh well its all good man

Excellent..I couldn't say it better myself.

I still don't agree with the comment about Arnold/Revees and drug use..I don't think anyone agrees with it. Here is a real quote from Arnold regarding Reeves: "Steve Reeves is a great man and has contributed much to the sport of bodybuilding, Steve was a great inspiration to me".

"After seeing Goliath and the Barbarians, I decided to start bodybuilding and look like Steve". Lou Ferrigno

" Sly do you want to be a bum or be like Steve Reeves". Sylvester Stallone

It was fun and good but the guy who started it with the unfounded comment should have been apart of the arguement..

"Steve Reeves ain't shit" is something I probably provoked but it is horseshit and anyone who knows bodybuilding would say that was a crazy statement. His "Perfection in the clouds" pose can not be matched by any bodybuilder past or present. I wish I could find a decent quality pic but I am sure most are aware of his "money" pose and it truely was perfect.

 

[gr81]

its always important to pay respect to the ones who paved the way and were bold enough to do something no one has done before, no question..
like Pac said, "what can I say, I wouldn't be here today if the old school didn't pave the way".. ha
yo how do you like that Madden '05? pretty sweet if I don't say so myself!