NOLVA and 19NORS
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Nolva with 19nors. Whats the TRUTH? - Anabolic Steroids, Bodybuilding Discussion Forums - Steroidology
For some reason over the last year or so, all i have seen on this board (as I don't visit others) is how devastating it is to use Tamoxifen with 19nors. Now, before we get into this, I don't wanna hear a bunch of parroted shit from people who have no experience with it. I have used Tamoxifen personally while using Deca and Tren and had no issues with the supposed problems that have said to arisen in the past year or so. I have also done loads of reading on it. So lets have a healthy debate shall we? Humdiddly, feel free to use all the big words you like... as long as I understand them. lol
Now, here is what my research tells me. Tamoxifen is a mixed ER agonist/antagonist.
In some tissues, such as the endometrium (uterus), upregulation of the progesterone receptor would be expected, as the endometrium is very sensitive to estrogen.
This is where i believe there is confusion.
In other tissues, such as the breast, Tamoxifen is an antagonist (blocks the ER). The progesterone receptor is synthesized in response to estrogen. So when the ER is blocked (in breast tissue), the progesterone receptor will also down regulate. This is what happens in cancer patients and we're no different.
Therefore, Tamoxifen will help reduce gyno even when using Tren or Deca, not make it worse.
Now, Tamoxifen will down regulate the progesterone receptor in breast tissue. Some "guru's" state Tamoxifen will up regulate the progesterone receptor and cause or lead to gyno. By either worsening estrogenic gyno or by itself. They, therefore, assume Tamoxifen CANT be used with Deca or Tren, but this is false.
Now, some of you may be confused about gyno. Maybe this will help.
You can get gyno (it seems) 3 ways. First off, from estrogen. Second, from progesterone alone, or progesterone making estrogenic gyno worse. And finally, from prolactin.
Tamoxifen can be used to treat gyno from either Deca or Tren, whether it be from estrogen or progesterone. BUT Tamoxifen CANNOT treat prolactin induced gyno. But can treat estrogenic gyno or progestenic gyno (if that exists).
Deca and Tren will both elevate PRL (Prolactin) levels (although, again debatable). Therefore, for PRL related sides, such as loss of libido, gyno and lactation (although not only from PRL), Caber, Prami or Dostinex need to be used.
You see, when people use Deca and Tren, they tend to use Testosterone too. So if they experienced gyno, it may be from estrogen, NOT from Deca and Tren and again, thus being OK to use Tamoxifen.
Basically, as progesterone is synthesised in response to estrogen, if you control estrogen, you essentially reduce progesterone sides as well.
I hope that clears some confusion because you will NOT find a study stating Tamoxifen up regulates the progesterone receptor in breast tissue anywhere. I have never seen a case of gyno solely caused by PgR. It just seems impossible as the PgR is synthesized by the ER (Estrogen Receptor).
This is from bigcat's steroid profiles, which summarizes some of the above about nolvadex and 19-nor:
"If indeed the overall yield of estrogen is so much smaller, and so is the rate of androgen receptor stimulation, how then is nandrolone so anabolic? The common belief is through a third receptor : the progesterone receptor. It has been concluded that both nandrolone2 and several of its metabolites3,4 do indeed activate the progesterone receptor and are altered by it. On the one hand progestagenic activity decreases the estrogen receptor concentration in some tissues, it also mediates estrogenic action in other tissues5. So while estrogenic side-effects are fairly uncommon with nandrolone use alone, they can indeed occur and the implications of nandrolone's activity as a progesterone indicate these potential side-effects aren't to be solved with an aromatase inhibitor alone (like Cytadren). As long as there is estrogen in the system (indicating a possible increase of the problem when stacked with another aromatizing compound) progesterone can agonize its effects. And since progesterone receptors are found in breast tissue and have been linked to the formation of milk ducts, progestagenic activity may aggravate possibly gynocomastia. So while such problems are rare, when they occur they aren't easily treated.
It makes sense then that those particularly prone to the effects and side-effects of estrogen would take extra precaution. Blocking aromatase, considering the previous paragraph, would be a poor choice, but competitively inhibiting the estrogen receptor itself with clomiphene citrate (Clomid) or tamoxifen citrate (Nolvadex) might bring some relief since a large portion of progestagenic action is nullified if there is no circulating estrogen around, or if it is kept from being activated by the estrogen receptor."
One last thing. This thread is not meant to sway anyone from using or not using Tamoxifen with 19nors. Some of you may get worse sides from adding Nolva to a Deca or Tren laden cycle, but saying everyone will is misinformation.
As I have said a bilion times, everyone is different. For example, at the end of my cycling days all I took ever was a small amount of Aromasin. And I don't get gyno from even 1g of test a week. But that's me. I have just gotten a little peeved at seeing everyone say DON"T USE NOLVADEX WITH 19NORS OR IT WILL CAUSE PROBLEMS.
Use should always be conducted following thorough research and then through trial and error. Yes, knowledge from others is great as a start, but you have to find out what works for YOU and only YOU!!!!!
