Well the sensation of pain would be technically impossible to describe, But one whos has felt it(As I assume we all have) can certainly emphasize with others they see in pain. Thats why we have a natural tendency to be defensive of those in pain. But honestly,"They dont feel pain" isnt a reason to consider a human,"not a person" Because they could still very well be a,"person" who just has a flaw in their nervous system. I would never support any project which intended to conduct research on humans (Lab or procreated) just because they didnt feel pain.Stickboy said:
The thing Im talking about would require us to be a little more technologically advanced than just being able to clone humans. Cloning humans and ignorantly messing with their DNA in a trial and error attempt to get the result you want would be a nightmare.Stickboy said:
Im referring to a point in time where we understand how each little thing in DNA, cells, and organs work. And we could specifically create humans without the.. Uh,"Interface" of the brain. The subconscious that controls bodily functions such as breathing, sweating, regulates heart rate ect would have to remain in tact(obviously) But with the complete lack of a node where information is gathered and processed; or as Ive called it, A consciousness.
And yes, I say a human body with no form of consciousness is not a,"person." If they do not have memories, can not gather, and compile information gathered by the body(via the main senses, for example), can not process said information; then all they are is an accumulation of cells which have formed interdependent roles as organs, blood cells, ect. In this case this body would inevitably die without life support as it lacks the most important part; a pilot, a person.
Well if you want to call it a,"They" Then sure. You could also call the body an,"Individual". Even name it if you like. But no matter how much it looks like one, it is not a,"person". Naturally, we do perceive it that way since whenever we meet a person, you see a body. You think of yourself, and you think of your body. But if the body was a person, then you would lose a part of yourselfbusyLivin said:They would exist.. the same way vegetables in the hospitals exist. Consciousness does not constitute existence. Something either exists, or doesn't.
,when your arm is cut off. Needless to say, you dont; you just lose your arm. Trees exist too. They're made of organic matter as well, yet they dont have a consciousness.. Yet have you ever found yourself in a moral dilemma when you cut down the 3 foot tree that started growing in your yard?Think of it this way, If the tree knew you(After walking past him for three years I would think he would.) He knew the cars that went by; he acted differently in different weather; he found he doesnt like growing leaves to the west because of the way the sun burns them.. so he leans slightly and has no leaves on that side. Then would you think twice before murdering the tree? You slide your blade through the bark, and pulp; and you have sap all over your blade. The tree leans desperately(And slowly.. lol, its a tree) away from you hoping to avoid another cut; nervous cells in the bark send a shocking sensation up to the main bulb, and the leaves start to shake feverishly from the constant sensation of pain zipping up the bark due to an open would. You take another slash, as the tree is slowly removing its roots from the ground in a final attempt to deroot itself and flee; the shaking now, more violent than ever. You take one final swipe and the roots stop cold, the upper half of the tree falls to the ground with a thud, bending and bowing back in forth as it writhes in pain.. You know it will take hours for it to die, so out of mercy you take your machete for one last swing and cut the main bulb in half; and the tree slowly comes to a stop. Having removed the nuisance from blocking the view of your house from the street, you smile happily, turn around and begin to head back inside.
Just then you hear a giant cracking sound as an enormous Branch snaps from the tree above. You realize the tree was its mother, and despite her efforts to save her seedling, her physiology simply made her too slow to stop you..
The branch falls, clobbers you, and you die.
There are reasons we dont,"Harvest" our vegetables.Stickboy said:
1. In many cases; such as a coma, the lack of a consciousness could be merely temporary.. Kind of like when you got to sleep every night. If theres a chance the ,"Person" could wake up then by all means, it should be treated as a person.
2. Its symbolic. Sometimes(often) when a family loses someone to such a state, its too painful just to let them go. Every part of them wishes that some miracle will come and this person will return.. But inevitably, it doesnt happen. The costs of full time life support also has a tendency to overwhelm the average family. So they do end up,"murdering" the person by allowing life support to cease. And its completely legal! I dont see the state sponsoring vegetables because,"They're people too" Not to mention by law, all you have to do is prove that the person does not have a given chance to come out of their vegetable state. Granted, law means nothing, That was just for note
Only because Im an atheist. Lets say Im wrong, and in fact, god DOES exist.. except,"God" has a name, and its,"Allah." How could any person then, who does not know the teachings of Islam, possibly understand the rules that govern the world? If a god was real, then reality is not always something to be seen. You could not figure out the world using knowledge and logic, because your knowledge would be flawed, and incomplete.busyLivin said:
The same could be said if Christians were right, and their god is real(Which, by definition means all other religions are wrong. Im not making a scenario where both Allah and god will be real because they would fight IMO) Then anyone who is a non-christian, and/or does not know the teachings of the bible could not possibly understand the fundamental basics of the universe. And if you dont know the very basics, then you dont know anything.
In retrospect, perhaps I should have stated that it would have been hard or impossible to understand because your feet are not planted in MY reality. Which is true, the view of "life","Humans", and,"people" from the perspective of a non-moralist(I may have to define this..) atheist is going to be far different than a Christian, Jew, or Muslim.
No, Im saying the lack of a consciousness is the lack of HAVING a person. A body is not a person. The brain contains the ability to create and contain a person(thats not the best wording..) So under normal circumstances(And by current definition of,"brain") One could say that to be a person, one must have a brain. But to have a brain, is not to be a person.busyLivin said:I see a direct correlation between your "idea" and stickboy's vegetable example. You plainly said "like someone who had a lobotomy," implying that a lack of consciousness demotes them from being a person.. paving the way for the organ harvest. What's the difference?
As for the organ harvest.. It would be incredibly inefficient to create humans just to harvest organs, esp considering the organ needs of hospitals are different per organ, so we would be trashing alot of extra organs.
By the time we could create humans without a person/consciousness, we could also create each individual organ on its own.. kind of like how we make replacement ears and noses using mice(Now THATS an organ harvest!) except we wouldnt need to use mice, lol. So the organ harvest theory is out.
As far as,"harvesting" organs from the veggies in our hospitals, it does happen if/when they turn off life support. Granted that requires permission from the person who became the vegetable, such as signing up as an organ donor if you die on your drivers license. As for someone who was born a vegetable, its the parents decision.
As for my word,"Moralist."
A moralist is generally somebody who shares the same,"Moral" beliefs as a religion, but does not share the spiritual beliefs. A Christian moralist for instance, would be somebody who has the values of a Christian, yet does not believe in god(Or believes in another god..) Moralists are merely a reflection of the community they grew up in; you wouldnt find too many Christian moralists in Afghanistan for instance.
Busy, despite how it may sound, I did find something I agreed with you on-
If any of my posts come off a little harsh, its just how I get in a debate thread; Ive got nothing but respect for you guys.busyLivin said:Hey, no hard feelings. A debate is a debate.
I hate you. Even if by some miracle this makes sense and you say,"OMG, You're right!" Then I STILL wasted 3+ hours writing this, so you win anywaysStickboy said:Bring it on.
LOL This post is almost 10kb in size 
I dont have the time either, so Im keeping my nose out of debates for now. I have the tendancy to.. well..
Sometimes I wish I were a stern Democrat or Republican so I wouldnt feel this way 
