Is juice the right answer? Please help...

[Pumping Iron]

I'm kinda new to this forum thing, i've poster a few times, and i thank everyone for their input.

Onto the point..I'm a 6'1", 205lb, 22 year old bodybuilder. I eat 6-8 meals per day, including 2 protien shakes. I have pretty good size and muscularity, but I am trying to put on more mass, and I can't possibly consumer more, my metabolism is just too fast.

My question is..are steroids the answer? I spoke with an about 55 year old bodybuilder from my old gym who still had decent muscularity and some size. He told me he used to lift in the golden years of gold's gym in cali with arnold, franco etc. and was even robby robinson's training partner. i asked him about roids, and he said he never touched them...

BUT, he said he has been lifting his entire life, and he said guys he's lifted with have put on more mass from one 2-3 month cycle than from 15 years of consistent training, eating and sleeping!

Please help! I need your input! Thanks...

 

[Fit Freak]

I think a lot of this has to do with genetics but it goes w/o saying taking gear will definately help add mass. If you're looking to stay natural there are ways to up your calories w/o eating a lot more volume of food...for example start eating more fats like natural peanut butter, nuts and seeds, flax oil, olive oil, etc. Add milk to you shakes....eat steak over tuna and chicken breasts (steak is higher in cals), etc. All these things will help you dramatically up the calories w/o adding much additional "bulk" to your diet.

 

[Mudge]

Steroids are not the answer, if your metabolism is lightning fast unfortunately the only way to deal with it is EAT. From the perspective of a 137 pound go who is now near 300, his advice is to intake oils with your protein shakes, olive/flax etc, he is HUGE on olive oil. Dont go overkill with it off the bat or you will have the squirts.

You can gain weight from water retention, eating more, or doing less work, and if the diet is not dead on with steroids you will lean out a little and hold water, steroids need HIGH cal diets in general to work - hence steroids are not some magical quick fix. They are there to make your hormone levels go through the roof, which allows for some nice things to happen, but it doesn't lift the weights or eat the food for you.

I dont have that fast a metabo, but I would say I was supprised at how much I could eat, even when full I found I could eat more and more and not throw up. If you eat carb heavy foods like Pizza then I can agree that fills me up for awhile, thats bulking food only. If I eat clean chicken/rice etc I can eat tons and tons of it.

 

[Fit Freak]

Mudge...well said

 

[firestorm]

I'd say to stay totally Clear of steriods totally. They are not worth the risks of long term effects.

 

[crackerjack414]

i disagrea steroids are safe if used correctly and not abused. But this is not a place for there use

 

[Mudge]

I agree with Cracker, but Fire has had his experiences so he has been there, and made his own decision as well all do, yay or nay

 

[firestorm]

Yea,,, what Mudge just said! hahahaha Seriously though CrackerJack, you said: "When used correctly" I won't quip on words because I know you meant to say: "When not abused". We all know that Steroids were not invented for bodybuilders right? so using them to enhance muscle growth in a healthy body is not how they were intended to be used. Lets face it, when you look at the directions on a bottle of Winstrol or equipoise for example,, (this is pretty funny) It shows a diagram of farm animals (horse and cow for example. There is no picture of a human being because they were not intended for human use.
Now anyway back to what you "meant" to say. Steroids are safe if not "abused". Well I can agree with that BUT, what is the limit? How much is too much? Stacking juice on top of juice and then adding a little more to this cycle and so on and so on. Lets face it, with young adults and older adults also steroids are very often abused. New users will take mega doses of this or that because they are seeing gains and they want to be 40 pounds bigger by "yesterday". I've seen it on here with some people.

 

[gr81]

I can agree with some of what you say, but you can totally make the argument that if cycled properly and not abused, the roids can be a healthy thing. They improve blood lipid profiles and other things as well. As for them being intended for animals and not humans, that is just a front. On my box of Ganabol it gives directions for animals, then on the other side it says "intended for human use only, do not give to animals". The mex vet companies know what is going on. To answer your question though, no one can answer that question for you. All you can do is do as much research as you can until you feel confident enough to make a decision if it is right for you or not.

 

[firestorm]

Originally posted by gr81
I can agree with some of what you say, but you can totally make the argument that if cycled properly and not abused, the roids can be a healthy thing.

Right GR8 but,, that is my point, but you know as well as I do, that a very good majority of people don't cycle properly and they do abuse it and many times because they just don't know any better.
You see the majority of new users that don't know what they are doing taking way too much.


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They improve blood lipid profiles and other things as well.
Yea like Liver disease or if your lucky,, just liver systs. bad acne, hair loss, HGH users grow extra bone in areas such as elbows, feet, jaw and front of cranium above the eyes. I won't even bring up cancer cause I can't proove that or give a "true" example. The above side effects I've seen for myself in people I know/knew. And that is only a few things. I have a bigger list. Me for example had very bad acne on back at one point(minor side effect) Burning sensation when you pee.(had that one also).
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As for them being intended for animals and not humans, that is just a front. On my box of Ganabol it gives directions for animals, then on the other side it says "intended for human use only, do not give to animals".

That is only one drug and not the ones I mentioned that people use. Don't forget I haven't seen a bottle of steroids since 1989 so maybe since people started using them in such quantities they added people to those pullouts. I don't know about todays packaging.
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The mex vet companies know what is going on. To answer your

Yea your damn right they do bro, They are the biggest importers and have been even back when I was taking the stuff. I used to make trips to Mexico and bring it back.

GR8,, you can tell yourself it's healthy for you my friend but sincerely, it's not healthy. It's a drug plain and simple. Your putting something into your body for an ailment that your just not suffering from. I'm not telling anyone not to use them I'm just saying they are dangerous and you really have to know what the heck your doing. Many people are nieve and just go into it feet first and take whatever amount some gym rat tells them too. That is just plain stupid. Believe I know,, I was very much like that when I had first started. I took everything and shitloads of it. I was a mega monster with a bad attitude to match.

 

[Mudge]

What fire means is they were not intended for heavy human use as a compound, now the companies know people buy it so obviously that is a great deal of the market. I think the differentiation should have been obvious EQ was made for horses, as an example.

There is a good article on problems that arise when EQ is used above 400mg, many other drugs that increase red blood cell count have the same risks. So in a worst case scenario you could die from it.

I have mentioned before a friend of mine that is about 50, a former powerlifter and heavy user. He has had I believe 6 heart attacks and 5 strokes, the last stroke left him bed ridden for about 6 months. After that he still has problems with the left side of his body. He is still big and very strong, but can't really lift because its too risky for his heart. Just like Grizzly, he had to stop.

 

[firestorm]

Thanks Mudge for speaking "english" for me.(being serious not busting on you) God knows I couldn't figure out how to say it that easy. Your the man!!!!

 

[crackerjack414]

well gear can either be as safe or as dangerous as u make it. If u dont have fequent blood work done and go through the proper post cycle regimes. it can be very dangerous

 

[firestorm]

Ok that makes very good sense there Cracker. Simple short quote and on the money.

 

[Mudge]

It was an era when most bodybuilders relied on ballistic and animalistic training to Get Big and Grow Strong! Bodybuilders utilized nutrition and vitamins to make progress and supplemented with minimal Steroids in order to survive the torturous workouts. Now, with drugs like Growth Hormone and IGF-1 accessible, the bodybuilders of today are crying "OVERTRAINING" consistently. With steroid use and abuse running rampant, I feel that the complaints of overtraining by a young, strong, juiced up "Champion" is unwarranted.

John Defendis

 

[firestorm]

I don't know where you got that quote Mudge but I like it. It was a big argument of mine for years when I hear "everyone" cry about overtraining. It was my stance similar to the above that was part of the reason I was banned from MM.Com because all those candyasses "only" believed in that "HIT" program. Any other training phylosophies other then HITwere wrong and that pissed me off to no end. Screw the Steroids, natural or juiced I fuqing hate people crying that anything more then 3 sets is overtraining. SHIT, I grew up and got big doing 3 sets just on warmups. It wasn't a special day if I did 5 sets of heavy flat benches 5 sets of Inclines 4 sets of a Decline movement or weighted dips, 3 sets of incline flies and 3 sets of cable or flat flies. Anyone who said I was overtraining in those days I'd say,, So,, if I cut my sets I'll be benching even more then 485 for 6??? Because that was what I was doing. In short if I was overtraining give me more of it.

 

[Mudge]

Two sets later he was back in the bathroom stall revisiting his breakfast. I smiled, finished my workout and went home to eat. Funny thing though...I never saw those two assholes in my gym again. Did I feel bad? Hell no! Why? Because everyday I see macho guys who haven't learned how to train hard in the gym. These are the guys that wear the doo-rags, are juiced up on all kinds of drugs and walk around like they are Gods. They would rather overabuse drugs then to eat right and train hard. They are the wannabes of the world. They want all the rewards but do not want to put in the effort. I love these guys. These are the guys that keep me young, strong, and motivated. There is nothing better in the world then giving a cocky asshole an ass beating in the gym. These are the guys that make my life worthwhile!

Fire, http://www.defendis.com/html/hardcore.html

I actually think overtraining is overrated also, I used an "overtraining" program and never grew like that before or since. I still have the stretch marks from about 10 years ago. I'm revisiting HST right now, which is not really nutty, but it is harder on me to keep up with and I like it for a changeup if nothing else

Meanwhile those guys are benching 205 for 6

 

[firestorm]

Originally posted by Mudge
Fire, http://www.defendis.com/html/hardcore.html

I actually think overtraining is overrated also, I used an "overtraining" program and never grew like that before or since. I still have the stretch marks from about 10 years ago. I'm revisiting HST right now, which is not really nutty, but it is harder on me to keep up with and I like it for a changeup if nothing else

Meanwhile those guys are benching 205 for 6

Well Mudge you have the right attitude. There isn't anything wrong with HIT but the bullshit that telling me anything and everything else is wrong since that Almightly workout program hit MM.com was a fuqing joke. Bunch of brainwashed ignorant kids over there. (CAN YOU TELL I'M GETTING WORKED UP OVER HEAR!!!!) (Flashbacks of MM.com) Change is good no doubt and I said this at least 10,000 times,, Every workout ever conceived probably worked wonders for someone. Everyone is different and responds differently to different things. There is no single right workout for everybody. (except for GOPROS workout) hahahaha

 

[Mudge]

HST, I haven't looked at HIT hardly, maybe they are similar though... MM and EF are cookie cutter sites, where 70% of the people are going to be newbies and just repeat everything they hear I probably have a total of 5 posts at MM or something.

 

[firestorm]

Let me tell you what the problem is regarding overtraining. It's the gyms or "spa" mentality of todays generation. I've visited some of them and those people don't train HARD. There is NO WAY IN HELL you can perform a hardcore workout and still have time to talk about your girlfriend or how your lawn looks, flirt with chicks, laughing, talking, tv's at every corner of the gym, Internet access at every bike, NO CHALK allowed in the weight area!!! Shit no wonder everyone thinks that anything more then 2 sets is overtraining!!!! They are soft and it's not all their fault. It's these Spas and gyms just trying to up their memberships. They don't want big bodybuilders in there. They are intimidating to the fat or skinny white collar types that join and go to the gym 1 or 2ice for month and then stop coming the last 6 months of thier year membership. There are few and far between "real' gyms anymore, true hardcore gyms. You walk into one of those and you won't see any of that bullshit. They train hard and don't fuq around. It sure as hell isn't the place you want to strike up a conversation about the weather.

 

[firestorm]

Mudge, MM is a great place to find out if you suffer from roid rage if your juicing.

 

[Mudge]

I'll be sure to keep that in mind

 

[gr81]

Originally posted by firestorm
There is NO WAY IN HELL you can perform a hardcore workout and still have time to talk about your girlfriend or how your lawn looks, flirt with chicks, laughing, talking, tv's at every corner of the gym, Internet access at every bike, NO CHALK allowed in the weight area!!! Shit no wonder everyone thinks that anything more then 2 sets is overtraining!!!! They are soft and it's not all their fault. It's these Spas and gyms just trying to up their memberships. They don't want big bodybuilders in there. They are intimidating to the fat or skinny white collar types that join and go to the gym 1 or 2ice for month and then stop coming the last 6 months of thier year membership. There are few and far between "real' gyms anymore, true hardcore gyms. You walk into one of those and you won't see any of that bullshit. They train hard and don't fuq around. It sure as hell isn't the place you want to strike up a conversation about the weather.

Man do I feel you here FIRE. I suffer from this everyday. I do not know where a real gym is around me, just these health clubs. It has taken me a long time to even get used to training in this type of atmosphere, but now I just let it fuel me. I hate doing powerlifts in these places though, everyone just stares at me. and beleive me I am no where near big enough to draw a crowd when I lift. It drives me crazy. I wish I could find a real gym to go to though.

 

[firestorm]

There are still a few close to me but due to home responsiblities, I put a gym in my basement and I train there,,,alone. I've grown to love it. I visited a few gyms here and there and was glad I put the gym in the basement. I don't miss it whatsoever. Last week I had a class here at work during daytime hours and used the company gym. (very nice I might add) BUT.. (You knew there would be a but right? hahaha) anyway I start doing some warmup DB benches with the 100's and already grew a crowd. I couldn't believe it!! They were freeking 100's not 150's or something outragous! Now I'm getting all the questions. How do I do this and how long will it take me to get to use 100's... It was non stop for an hour. Then I had the "can I work in" I was glad I was only there for a day let me tell you.

 

[crackerjack414]

every one has differnt theshhold for training ive always viewed it like this u can either train hard and short or u can train long with less intensity. I myself follow a modified Hit based routine that has a real emphasis on stretching. if any of u are familiar with dogcrap (dainte) style of training. LOL bro iam freaking stuck with those damned 140 pounds dbs at the moment. Naw u wanna start getting questions start doing seated db presses with the 90s.

 

[Mudge]

Yep, DOGGCRAP had a thread on Animals board that was like 78 pages (Dante).

I could do a few presses with 85s

 

[firestorm]

Originally posted by crackerjack414
every one has differnt theshhold for training ive always viewed it like this u can either train hard and short or u can train long with less intensity. I myself follow a modified Hit based routine that has a real emphasis on stretching. if any of u are familiar with dogcrap (dainte) style of training. LOL bro iam freaking stuck with those damned 140 pounds dbs at the moment. Naw u wanna start getting questions start doing seated db presses with the 90s.

hahaha I do use 90's for shoulder presses but never in the company of anyone that may be impressed. I thought the 100's were no big deal. I suppose it is for white shirt, tie wearing, loafer wearing, pocket protecter, glasses with tape in the middle of the frame wearing geeks that work here.

 

[Mudge]

Most guys fresh to the gym people can't bench their weight, much less use 100s for presses.

 

[firestorm]

That's true mudge and that is kewel. But my thang is just cause I can, don't stare or bother me during my workout. I'm sure you feel the same.

 

[Mudge]

Absolutely, I actually have anxiety problems so generally I avoid people as nature. Plus I just dont get along with most peoples ideals, or lack thereof most of the time.

I'm there to do my shit and get out. A few questions is one thing, but its not really possible to give someone 5 years (as an example) of training knowlege etc in a 30 second rest between your next set

Oh well, what can you do. I often just ask do you have a computer and an email address