less volume, same concept? mass/strength for natty

[fqqs]

6 weeks ago I switched to this routine, but I dont progress. my idea is that there are too many straight sets and this holds me back. i progress slightly in DL, curls, skullcruchers - and these are those exercises, which I do only 2-3 sets. so could it be a correlation- less sets=better progress, or just coincidence? can I be right? rest between sets is normal, 1-3 minutes (2 min between bench, rows,pullups,press, 3 minutes only for Deadlifts, squats, 1 for iso,abs)

the original routine was:

Mon

deadlifts 3x5
bb row 5x5
pullups 5x5
curls 2x8

Wed

bench 5x5
military press 5x5
chest dips 5x5
skulls 2x8

Fri

front squat 5x5
romanian deadlifts 5x5
barbell calves 3x12
hanging leg raise 3x12
w. crunches 3x12



so i wonder if it would be better to bust plateu:

Mon

deadlifts 3x5
bb rows 3x6
pullups 3x6
bb curls 2x8

Wed

bench 3x6
military press 3x6
chest dips 3x6
skulls 2x8

Fri

back squat 3x6
romanian deadlifts 3x6
front squats 3x6
hanging leg raises 3x10


I cut off calve raises out off the equation. front squats works both quads and core/abs so i also cut crunches


what do you think about that routine?

 

[Cork]

Plateaus can be caused from any huge number of variables. My first inclination would be to ask how your diet is going? Also how long you've been training overall, etc etc.

I find my best gains to come from focusing on 1 lift each day and the rest is assistance work. Where I don't really track progress on the assistance work. I know that if my main lift is consistantly increasing, then I'm surely increasing on the others.

I think you should stick to a 5x5 or even a 3x5 (with 2 good warmup sets) on your main lifts, and just change up your assistance work setsxreps more. Don't be afraid to work close to 10 reps, maybe sometimes even higher. I find my best gains anywhere from 6-10 reps on assistance work, but that doesn't mean higher reps doen't have merit.

So all that being said, with only working out 3 days a week, I do not think you need less volume whether you are natural or not. I would highly suggest you read on some real progression programs like the true 5x5 or Wendler's 531 or even the Juggernaut system. All of those methods have built in progression where all you have to do is follow the program and you'll see gains.

 

[fqqs]

my diet is 3500 kcal, 250g protein, 400g carbs, 90g fat. i thinkit is okay. i tend to get a little fat in waist area if i put more kcal



Pull
Deadlifts 3 x 5
BB Bent-over row - 3 x 6
Pull-ups - 3 x 6
BB Curls- 3 x 8

Push
BB Flat Bench Press- 3 x 5
BB Military Press- 3 x 6
Dips - 3 x 6
BB Triceps Extension- 3 x 8

Legs
BB Front Squats - 4 x 5
Romanian Deadlifts - 4 x 6
Hanging leg raises - 3 x 12

what do you think about that?

 

[Cork]

Alright so your diet is decent. That's not the issue then.

Forgetting the sets and reps, how do you deal with progression personally? Do you increase your lifts by 5lbs every week or every other week? Walk me through one of your exercises. Let's take deads for example. Do you take a weight that you know you can get for 5 reps for all 3 sets? Or do you do something like pick a heavy weight that you know you can get for 5 reps on the 1st set, then maybe you only get 4 reps on the next 2 sets?

The latter of those options is the best one IMO. That way when you get to all 5 reps for all 3 sets, you know it's time to increase the weight. I feel like rep ranges are always the best. That way if you do 3 sets, it's acceptable to get anywhere from 3-5 reps.

 

[fqqs]

yeah, I do like you said. 3x5 means i increase weight when i can do all 3 sets 5 reps

so for example:

week 1:
1st set: 140kg x 5
2nd set: 140kg x 5
3rd set: 140kg x 5

week 2 (increase weight 4kg)
1st: 144 x 5
2nd: 144 x 4
3rd: 144 x 3

week 3 (same wieght)
1st: 144 x 5
2nd: 144 x 5
3rd: 144 x 4

etc.

but my progression in exercises which i do more than 3 sets stalls. simply when i do 5x5 straight sets i feel that last 2 sets are limiting my in increasing weight and as a result I do the same weight for last some weeks.

 

[juggernaut]

my diet is 3500 kcal, 250g protein, 400g carbs, 90g fat. i thinkit is okay. i tend to get a little fat in waist area if i put more kcal




what do you think about that?

Another set of questions; a) what is your current goal? b) how long have you been training without a layoff, c) how much do you weigh?

 

[fqqs]

my current goal is bulk&strength. i try to make 1 week off every 8-12 weeks. i weight 170 lbs (5 7 height). i just want solid , simple routine which i could stick to. im all natural. i think low reps are a way to go. but im open for anny routines that will work. i heard that pull push legs is one of the best, but i found that doing overhead press after bench isnt comfortable. so i wounder about layout: back/biceps , chest/triceps/abs, legs/shoulders

and I currently workout at home, so prefer front squats instead of back ones. dont have safety pins for back squats.


sorry for my english, im form middle europe.

thank you all helpful people here


Mon:

deadlift
bb rows
pullups
bicep curls

Wed:

bench
db incline
chest dips
skullcrushers
hanging leg raises

Fri:

front squat
romanian dl
military press
barbell calve raise


what do you think?

i would do almost all exercises 2-3 x 5 or 8 , and 4 sets 5 reps for squat & rdl (+ 2-3warmup sets), for deads maybe 5x3 ? , but what do you recommend?


front squats (and DL -to a lesser extent) will tax my abs/core very hard so i think i dont need more direct ab work here. what do you think?

and calve raise - standing with barbell on 1-2 inch wooden block? 3 sets x 15-20 reps?

so generally could sb answer my questions please and write sets/reps for each exercise?

 

[fqqs]

@up...

 

[juggernaut]

I think you need to change your diet a bit. You're taking in too much, although the goal is gain mass, I'm afraid you're going to gain fat. Your workout structure is okay, but it can be better.
For gaining strength and mass, I'd seriously recommend doing this:

For squats, pick a weight you can do just 10 reps with. go to 20, but take 3 deep breaths in between reps.

Session 1:
20 rep squats 1x20
Dumbbell Pullover; 1x12
5 minute rest;
RDL; 2 warms, 1 work set of 5-10 reps
Pullups; 2 warms, 1 work set of 5-10 reps
.
Session 2:
20 rep rep squats 1x20
Dumbbell Pullover; 1x12
5 minute rest;
Military Press; 2 warms, 1 work set of 5-10 reps
Barbell Upright Row; 1 warm, 1x10
.
Session 3:
20 rep squats 1x20
Dumbbell Pullover; 1x12
5 minute rest;
Incline Bench Press; 2 warms, 1 work set of 5-10 reps
Barbell Rows; 2 warms, 1 work set of 5-10 reps

You can control fat gain by using a carb cycling structure tailored for muscle gain. Give me your fat %, your current bodyweight and let's start by getting some numbers.

 

[fqqs]

First of all, thank you for your response!

I weight 170lbs. dont have much body fat, only a bit on lower part of ab. but i have visible 6-pack. im 10-12% body fat

i think 20 rep squats can be difficult at this moemnt because as I said I dont have safety pins at home and have a hectic schedule and cant workout at gym. So 20 rep squats are a bit dangerous dont you think?

I really like pull push legs schedules and people say that it is very good method for bulk

so I wonder:

Mon Pull

deadlifts 3x4
rows 3x6
pullups 3x6

Wed Push

bench 3x6
overhead press 3x6
weighted chest dips 3x6


Fri legs/abs
front squat 3x6
Romanian deadlift 3x6


but im not sure about assistance exercises and sets/reps... i would be very grateful for any help

 

[juggernaut]

They're like every other push/pull. If properly structured yes, they work. How about a four day, 2 on, 1 off, 2 on, 2 off?

 

[Gazhole]

Improvise some safety pins. Oil drums, kegs, hell a pile of planks either side will do. Or just squat high bar and dump it off your back onto the floor if you get into trouble.

 

[juggernaut]

Beat me to it Gaz, but yeah.

 

[fqqs]

Gazhole - thanks a lot for sugesstions!

juggernaut - 4 day fo natural&ecto wouldnt be too much?
and what do you propose for 4 days?

 

[fqqs]

MONDAY-pull day
Deadlifts 5 x 3
Rows 3 x 5
Pullups 3 x 5
Curls 3 x 8

WEDNESDAY-push day
Flat barbell bench press 3 x 5
Standing overhead press 3 x 5
Chest dips 3 x 5
Close-grip bench 3 x 8
*core - couple of planks ?

FRIDAY- Legs
Front squats 3 x 5
Romanian deadlifts 3 x 5
Bulgarian db split squat 3 x 8
Leg curls 3 x 8
*core - Hanging leg raises 3 x 10


3 min rest between deadlift/squat sets , and 1-2 min for everything else


need to add some traps & upper chest work? or that is enough

 

[juggernaut]

Gazhole - thanks a lot for sugesstions!

juggernaut - 4 day fo natural&ecto wouldnt be too much?
and what do you propose for 4 days?

My clients are all natural and have used a 4 day split with resounding success. There's several ways you can go about it; the Texas Method by Rippetoe, Baby Got Back by Built, The Get Bodybuilding System by Gaz, Destroy and Flood Reloaded also by Gaz and Blue Collar Training.
These are all great protocols made for natties. Google each one and find what works for you.

Also, you can do Zercher Squats. It requires no equipment other than a bar and weight.

 

[fqqs]

ok, i will try this routine:

Mon - Pull
Deadlifts 3x6
Row 3x6
Pullups 3x6
Curls 3x8
Wed - Push
Bench 3x6
Military Press 3x6
Chest dip 3x6
Skullcrushers 3x8
Fri - Legs + Abs
Front squats 4x6
Romanian DL 4x6
Bulgarian split squat w/ dbs 3x8
Weighetd hanging leg raises 3x12


but have question regarding warmup sets:

1 set: 6 reps 50% work set
2 set: 3 reps 75% work set
3 set: 1 reps 90% work set

would be okay?