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Nuclear power plant worries continue to grow in Japan as effects from deadly tsunami

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The real problem is that those particular plants are designs that are over 40 years old and don't even have the second cover that 3 Mile Island did. If they at least had that, it would be so much less of an issue.

It would be a non-issue if they plants were completely modern.

But, oh no! It's nuclear! :mooh:

On a morbidly funny note, at a news site that I use, the story has been tagged with "Godzilla".

I've not seen anything that talked about the design specs. I'd love to see this plants design
 
I've not seen anything that talked about the design specs. I'd love to see this plants design


They were built around 1970. It's the same basic design as 3 Mile Island, minus the second housing.
 
They were built around 1970. It's the same basic design as 3 Mile Island, minus the second housing.

well thats not entirely true. 3 mile island was a pressure water reactor this is a boiler water reactor. there are some major differences there. information is so messed up right now about what these guys are reporting. thats creating such a misinformation scare right now.
 
well thats not entirely true. 3 mile island was a pressure water reactor this is a boiler water reactor. there are some major differences there. information is so messed up right now about what these guys are reporting. thats creating such a misinformation scare right now.

The Fukushima reactor is the oldest reactor in Japan. It came online in 1971. And you're right, it is a BWR reactor.
 
Nuclear reactors in U.S. are aging - half over 30 years old - Mar. 15, 2011

a fairly decent read. a bit biased, but properly informative. if you look at the map you will see our plants have been dealing with natural disasters for a long long time, and we've not had a problem like that from natural disaster. truth be told all of our problems have been from mechanical failure/human error combinations. just like in other industries. chernobyl was a design flaw, and looks like plant 1 in japan should have had updates to keep it current. plant 2 had these updates, but then mechanical failure (valve not opening) is causing it's problem
 
I don't know the specifications of this reactor being built to withstand 7-8 earthquakes, but not higher. This earthquake was an 8.9 and I've not read anything that states there was structural damage to the plant/core/reactor vessel. If there is I'd love to see it.

I also don't think its smart to post untrue information about 'regular bombs' being able to "blow these things and do worse destruction" that part just simply isn't true. bunker busters would have trouble doing enough damage to open up the core.
Obviously all they have to do is take out the cooling system delivery pipes and back-up generators, let the thing blow itself up from hydrogen build-up....

Still say these things should be built deep underground or at least have an ejection system that drops the radioactive part into an abyss lined with several feet of lead or some kind of containment.

This is just another catastrophe they don't need. I am not against nuclear power I just think we should plan for absolute worst case scenarios in building them.
 
Obviously all they have to do is take out the cooling system delivery pipes and back-up generators, let the thing blow itself up from hydrogen build-up....

Still say these things should be built deep underground or at least have an ejection system that drops the radioactive part into an abyss lined with several feet of lead or some kind of containment.

This is just another catastrophe they don't need. I am not against nuclear power I just think we should plan for absolute worst case scenarios in building them.

study up on what these plants use for containment. I think you'd be surprised. even with these explosions containment hasn't been breached in these reactors.

I agree this isn't another catastrophe anyone needs. and these things are designed to worse case scenario. research 3 mile island, it was a partial meltdown. hundreds of millions of dollars of damage, and the destruction of the plant. yet if you look at what radioactivity was released it was pretty ineffectual.
 
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Below is a summary [for the general public] on the Fukushima situation prepared by Dr Josef Oehmen, a research scientist at MIT, in Boston.

He is a PhD Scientist, whose father has also extensive experience in Germany’s nuclear industry.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

What happened at Fukushima

I will try to summarize the main facts. The earthquake that hit Japan was 7 times more powerful than the worst earthquake the nuclear power plant was built for (the Richter scale works logarithmically; the difference between the 8.2 that the plants were built for and the 8.9 that happened is 7 times, not 0.7). So the first hooray for Japanese engineering, everything held up.

When the earthquake hit with 8.9, the nuclear reactors all went into automatic shutdown. Within seconds after the earthquake started, the control rods had been inserted into the core and nuclear chain reaction of the uranium stopped. Now, the cooling system has to carry away the residual heat. The residual heat load is about 3% of the heat load under normal operating conditions.

The earthquake destroyed the external power supply of the nuclear reactor. That is one of the most serious accidents for a nuclear power plant, and accordingly, a “plant black out” receives a lot of attention when designing backup systems. The power is needed to keep the coolant pumps working. Since the power plant had been shut down, it cannot produce any electricity by itself any more.

Things were going well for an hour. One set of multiple sets of emergency Diesel power generators kicked in and provided the electricity that was needed. Then the Tsunami came, much bigger than people had expected when building the power plant (see above, factor 7). The tsunami took out all multiple sets of backup Diesel generators.

When designing a nuclear power plant, engineers follow a philosophy called “Defense of Depth”. That means that you first build everything to withstand the worst catastrophe you can imagine, and then design the plant in such a way that it can still handle one system failure (that you thought could never happen) after the other. A tsunami taking out all backup power in one swift strike is such a scenario. The last line of defense is putting everything into the third containment (see above), that will keep everything, whatever the mess, control rods in our out, core molten or not, inside the reactor.

When the diesel generators were gone, the reactor operators switched to emergency battery power. The batteries were designed as one of the backups to the backups, to provide power for cooling the core for 8 hours. And they did.

Within the 8 hours, another power source had to be found and connected to the power plant. The power grid was down due to the earthquake. The diesel generators were destroyed by the tsunami. So mobile diesel generators were trucked in.

This is where things started to go seriously wrong. The external power generators could not be connected to the power plant (the plugs did not fit). So after the batteries ran out, the residual heat could not be carried away any more.

At this point the plant operators begin to follow emergency procedures that are in place for a “loss of cooling event”. It is again a step along the “Depth of Defense” lines. The power to the cooling systems should never have failed completely, but it did, so they “retreat” to the next line of defense. All of this, however shocking it seems to us, is part of the day-to-day training you go through as an operator, right through to managing a core meltdown.

It was at this stage that people started to talk about core meltdown. Because at the end of the day, if cooling cannot be restored, the core will eventually melt (after hours or days), and the last line of defense, the core catcher and third containment, would come into play.

But the goal at this stage was to manage the core while it was heating up, and ensure that the first containment (the Zircaloy tubes that contains the nuclear fuel), as well as the second containment (our pressure cooker) remain intact and operational for as long as possible, to give the engineers time to fix the cooling systems.

Because cooling the core is such a big deal, the reactor has a number of cooling systems, each in multiple versions (the reactor water cleanup system, the decay heat removal, the reactor core isolating cooling, the standby liquid cooling system, and the emergency core cooling system). Which one failed when or did not fail is not clear at this point in time.

So imagine our pressure cooker on the stove, heat on low, but on. The operators use whatever cooling system capacity they have to get rid of as much heat as possible, but the pressure starts building up. The priority now is to maintain integrity of the first containment (keep temperature of the fuel rods below 2200°C), as well as the second containment, the pressure cooker. In order to maintain integrity of the pressure cooker (the second containment), the pressure has to be released from time to time. Because the ability to do that in an emergency is so important, the reactor has 11 pressure release valves. The operators now started venting steam from time to time to control the pressure. The temperature at this stage was about 550°C.

This is when the reports about “radiation leakage” starting coming in. I believe I explained above why venting the steam is theoretically the same as releasing radiation into the environment, but why it was and is not dangerous. The radioactive nitrogen as well as the noble gases do not pose a threat to human health.

At some stage during this venting, the explosion occurred. The explosion took place outside of the third containment (our “last line of defense”), and the reactor building. Remember that the reactor building has no function in keeping the radioactivity contained. It is not entirely clear yet what has happened, but this is the likely scenario: The operators decided to vent the steam from the pressure vessel not directly into the environment, but into the space between the third containment and the reactor building (to give the radioactivity in the steam more time to subside). The problem is that at the high temperatures that the core had reached at this stage, water molecules can “disassociate” into oxygen and hydrogen – an explosive mixture. And it did explode, outside the third containment, damaging the reactor building around. It was that sort of explosion, but inside the pressure vessel (because it was badly designed and not managed properly by the operators) that lead to the explosion of Chernobyl. This was never a risk at Fukushima. The problem of hydrogen-oxygen formation is one of the biggies when you design a power plant (if you are not Soviet, that is), so the reactor is build and operated in a way it cannot happen inside the containment. It happened outside, which was not intended but a possible scenario and OK, because it did not pose a risk for the containment.

So the pressure was under control, as steam was vented. Now, if you keep boiling your pot, the problem is that the water level will keep falling and falling. The core is covered by several meters of water in order to allow for some time to pass (hours, days) before it gets exposed. Once the rods start to be exposed at the top, the exposed parts will reach the critical temperature of 2200 °C after about 45 minutes. This is when the first containment, the Zircaloy tube, would fail.

And this started to happen. The cooling could not be restored before there was some (very limited, but still) damage to the casing of some of the fuel. The nuclear material itself was still intact, but the surrounding Zircaloy shell had started melting. What happened now is that some of the byproducts of the uranium decay – radioactive Cesium and Iodine – started to mix with the steam. The big problem, uranium, was still under control, because the uranium oxide rods were good until 3000 °C. It is confirmed that a very small amount of Cesium and Iodine was measured in the steam that was released into the atmosphere.

It seems this was the “go signal” for a major plan B. The small amounts of Cesium that were measured told the operators that the first containment on one of the rods somewhere was about to give. The Plan A had been to restore one of the regular cooling systems to the core. Why that failed is unclear. One plausible explanation is that the tsunami also took away / polluted all the clean water needed for the regular cooling systems.

The water used in the cooling system is very clean, demineralized (like distilled) water. The reason to use pure water is the above mentioned activation by the neutrons from the Uranium: Pure water does not get activated much, so stays practically radioactive-free. Dirt or salt in the water will absorb the neutrons quicker, becoming more radioactive. This has no effect whatsoever on the core – it does not care what it is cooled by. But it makes life more difficult for the operators and mechanics when they have to deal with activated (i.e. slightly radioactive) water.

But Plan A had failed – cooling systems down or additional clean water unavailable – so Plan B came into effect. This is what it looks like happened:

In order to prevent a core meltdown, the operators started to use sea water to cool the core. I am not quite sure if they flooded our pressure cooker with it (the second containment), or if they flooded the third containment, immersing the pressure cooker. But that is not relevant for us.

The point is that the nuclear fuel has now been cooled down. Because the chain reaction has been stopped a long time ago, there is only very little residual heat being produced now. The large amount of cooling water that has been used is sufficient to take up that heat. Because it is a lot of water, the core does not produce sufficient heat any more to produce any significant pressure. Also, boric acid has been added to the seawater. Boric acid is “liquid control rod”. Whatever decay is still going on, the Boron will capture the neutrons and further speed up the cooling down of the core.

The plant came close to a core meltdown. Here is the worst-case scenario that was avoided: If the seawater could not have been used for treatment, the operators would have continued to vent the water steam to avoid pressure buildup. The third containment would then have been completely sealed to allow the core meltdown to happen without releasing radioactive material. After the meltdown, there would have been a waiting period for the intermediate radioactive materials to decay inside the reactor, and all radioactive particles to settle on a surface inside the containment. The cooling system would have been restored eventually, and the molten core cooled to a manageable temperature. The containment would have been cleaned up on the inside. Then a messy job of removing the molten core from the containment would have begun, packing the (now solid again) fuel bit by bit into transportation containers to be shipped to processing plants. Depending on the damage, the block of the plant would then either be repaired or dismantled.

Now, where does that leave us?

The plant is safe now and will stay safe.
Japan is looking at an INES Level 4 Accident: Nuclear accident with local consequences. That is bad for the company that owns the plant, but not for anyone else.
Some radiation was released when the pressure vessel was vented. All radioactive isotopes from the activated steam have gone (decayed). A very small amount of Cesium was released, as well as Iodine. If you were sitting on top of the plants’ chimney when they were venting, you should probably give up smoking to return to your former life expectancy. The Cesium and Iodine isotopes were carried out to the sea and will never be seen again.
There was some limited damage to the first containment. That means that some amounts of radioactive Cesium and Iodine will also be released into the cooling water, but no Uranium or other nasty stuff (the Uranium oxide does not “dissolve” in the water). There are facilities for treating the cooling water inside the third containment. The radioactive Cesium and Iodine will be removed there and eventually stored as radioactive waste in terminal storage.
The seawater used as cooling water will be activated to some degree. Because the control rods are fully inserted, the Uranium chain reaction is not happening. That means the “main” nuclear reaction is not happening, thus not contributing to the activation. The intermediate radioactive materials (Cesium and Iodine) are also almost gone at this stage, because the Uranium decay was stopped a long time ago. This further reduces the activation. The bottom line is that there will be some low level of activation of the seawater, which will also be removed by the treatment facilities.
The seawater will then be replaced over time with the “normal” cooling water
The reactor core will then be dismantled and transported to a processing facility, just like during a regular fuel change.
Fuel rods and the entire plant will be checked for potential damage. This will take about 4-5 years.
The safety systems on all Japanese plants will be upgraded to withstand a 9.0 earthquake and tsunami (or worse)
I believe the most significant problem will be a prolonged power shortage. About half of Japan’s nuclear reactors will probably have to be inspected, reducing the nation’s power generating capacity by 15%. This will probably be covered by running gas power plants that are usually only used for peak loads to cover some of the base load as well. That will increase your electricity bill, as well as lead to potential power shortages during peak demand, in Japan.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
 
great post premier. good read, very informative. that did everything the news was failing to do, and did a pretty good job of explaining things. the only thing that could have improved it was an accompanying diagram labeling levels of containment.
 
This is interesting but it worries me. Nuclear is very dangerous in our body. I remember back then, in the World War II when Hiroshima and Nagasaki were bombed using Nuclear bombs. A lot of people there died and suffered so much. Babies and children got defects and suffer from health ailments. Another, there are two very specific things to talk about when dealing with radiation. Radiation contamination, and Radiation exposure. What will happened to the people in Japan? I heard that the Japanese government finances billions of dollars to restore the country.
 
I was also thinking of posting that while getting caught up on this thread, PreMier! Great read, and really spells it out in black and white. The media seems to be doing the usual thing and twisting the facts to get a story out of it.

It's definitely news-worthy, don't get me wrong, but they're making out like its the end of the world - literally.
 
This is interesting but it worries me. Nuclear is very dangerous in our body. I remember back then, in the World War II when Hiroshima and Nagasaki were bombed using Nuclear bombs. A lot of people there died and suffered so much. Babies and children got defects and suffer from health ailments. Another, there are two very specific things to talk about when dealing with radiation. Radiation contamination, and Radiation exposure. What will happened to the people in Japan? I heard that the Japanese government finances billions of dollars to restore the country.

Birth defects among the children of atomic-bomb survivors (1948-1954) - Radiation Effects Research Foundation

No statistically significant increase in major birth defects or other untoward pregnancy outcomes was seen among children of survivors. Monitoring of nearly all pregnancies in Hiroshima and Nagasaki began in 1948 and continued for six years. During that period, 76,626 newborn infants were examined by ABCC physicians. When surveillance began, certain dietary staples were rationed in Japan, but ration regulations made special provision for women who were at least 20 weeks pregnant. This supplementary ration registration process enabled the identification of more than 90% of all pregnancies and the subsequent examination of birth outcomes.

the people of japan and the world are going to be fine. just fine. it's all about understanding radiation and the worlds population simply doesn't
 
http://www.rerf.or.jp/radefx/genetics_e/birthdef.htmlthe people of japan and the world are going to be fine. just fine. it's all about understanding radiation and the worlds population simply doesn't

Incorrect. It's about hearing the word "nuclear", shitting your pants, and running around screaming.

Morons.

Years ago I put a sign on a microwave that read "Do not use. Broken. Leaks radiation." Almost no one would go near it.

Morons.
 
See I told you it wasn't built to withstand an Earthquake of that mag. bio-chem...

And yeah the media is to blame, my local papers headline yesterday: NUCLEAR CALAMITY!!!

I'm glad it's brought attention to the fact that you can never have enough safety precautions with something like this....
 
See I told you it wasn't built to withstand an Earthquake of that mag. bio-chem...

And yeah the media is to blame, my local papers headline yesterday: NUCLEAR CALAMITY!!!

I'm glad it's brought attention to the fact that you can never have enough safety precautions with something like this....

built to withstand an 8.2 and when an 8.9 hits it holds up just fine. that means something. they screwed up when they built the walls protecting the diesel generators to handle a 21 foot wave and a 23 foot wave hit. and even with the fact that millions of dollars of damage was done and they probably wont use plants 1,2, and 4 again. the populace is not really in danger. that says a lot.
 
Incorrect. It's about hearing the word "nuclear", shitting your pants, and running around screaming.

Morons.

Years ago I put a sign on a microwave that read "Do not use. Broken. Leaks radiation." Almost no one would go near it.

Morons.

worth being said twice
 
Geiger Readings Across America: The Effects of Radiation in Everyday Life

Radiation Is Everywhere but Mostly Harmless, Experts Say

Despite U.S. consumers' growing awareness of iodide pills, Geiger counters and emergency kits in the wake of Japan's nuclear scare, most people here have little to worry about, experts say.

Radiation, they say, is all around us, even inside of us, and it's perfectly safe for the most part.

To illustrate the point, ABC News took a Geiger counter around New York City to test different objects and locations. Even in the middle of Central Park, there is always a background level of radiation.

At a food stand in the park, a banana makes the Geiger counter rise a little bit. Bananas contain potassium, which people need to live, but is also radioactive.

At Grand Central Station, the meter on the Geiger counter moved a lot. Grand Central was built with granite and marble, which are both radioactive.

Eric Hall, a nuclear researcher at Columbia University in New York City, said that the thousands of people who walk through Grand Central every day are not at risk of getting sick because of the radioactivity around them.

"The doses are very, very small," Hall said.

Another activity that exposes people to radiation is air travel.

ABC News' Abbie Boudreau flew from Los Angeles to Denver to test the radiation levels during a flight.

"We're just about to take off on our flight and I turned the device on and it's going back and forth between .01 and .02," Boudreau said of the dose in millisieverts.

An hour and a half into the flight, at 40,000 feet, the meter showed a reading of 0.34, which is because the plane was closer to the radiation of outer space.

Every year, just walking around the planet, each individual is exposed to about 3.5 millisieverts of radiation. That's about 67 chest X-rays, or 134 cross- country plane trips.

Here is a comparison of the radiation levels of everyday items and activities:

Banana: .0007 mSv

Pistachio: .001 mSv

Smoke Detector: .0029 mSv

Abdominal CT Scan: 10 mSv

In the course of a year, a flight crew flying between Tokyo and New York is exposed to 14 mSv of radiation.

What Would a Full Meltdown Mean for the United States?

Even a full meltdown in Japan would be no reason for alarm in the United States, experts say.

"If any radiation were to make it here, it would be merely background levels and nothing for people on the West Coast or people in the United States to be concerned about," said Jere Jenkins, the director of Radiation Laboratories at Purdue University in West Lafayette, Ind.

In order to get radiation sickness, a person would need to be exposed to at least 1,000 millisieverts of radiation at once. For most people, a fatal dose is about five times that amount; a range of 3,500 to 5,000 mSv of radiation at once is deadly, which would be 10 hours at the Fukushima Daiichi reactor.

To put that in perspective, the radiation levels at the scene of the fire at the nuclear plant in Japan have reached about 400 millisieverts per hour, meaning a person would have to be right there at the fire for two and a half hours to get sick.

Radiation workers have a limit of 50 mSv per year. Workers who're reaching that limit are being pulled out now.

Another comparison: Three Mile Island came to a 1mSv reading in 1979, while Fukushima Daiichi rated at 400 mSv Monday. Chernobyl, on the other hand, was 16,000 mSv in 1986.

"Not all radiation is dangerous," ABC News health and medical editor Dr. Richard Besser said, "but the levels of radiation we're hearing about in the plant really are."
 
i want people to be honest. how many of you are holding your potassium iodide pills?
 
i want people to be honest. how many of you are holding your potassium iodide pills?
I have 4 things to say.

1-Where can I buy it?

2- invest in that manufacturer stock.

3- Still better safe than sorry....wasn't too long ago cigarettes were called safe.

4-I was joking about #1
 
Has anyone heard from KUSO?
 
I have 4 things to say.

1-Where can I buy it?

2- invest in that manufacturer stock.

3- Still better safe than sorry....wasn't too long ago cigarettes were called safe.

4-I was joking about #1

nukepills.com or your local pharmacist if they carry it. lol
 
i want people to be honest. how many of you are holding your potassium iodide pills?

Bulk Nutrition is having a blowout sale on them. Hurry up and stock up!!!

:coffee:
 
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