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Sub q test?
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Cyp and E is the most comfortable subq. I like 250-300mg/ml concentrations so the sub q inject volume is small. Anything larger than a 0.5ml inject can be uncomfortable sub q.
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People say it takes longer to kick in that way
what do you say gear god?
what do you say gear god?
Yes, onset of action will be slower but you could always pin IM the first pin then go subq.
Btw, using a slin pin IM will work in lean muscle groups.
Btw, using a slin pin IM will work in lean muscle groups.
parsifal09
Banned Member
heavy/john,
so subq works just as well as im?????????????????
ill be doing subq if that's the case
so subq works just as well as im?????????????????
ill be doing subq if that's the case
It has been investigated for TRT. Two studies have verified its efficacy however 0.5ml volumes are as high as I would go per inject.
parsifal09
Banned Member
hmmm, i cant use it the, ty though
in your experience, does tren insominia ever go away????/ your body ever get used to it or you just have to get off tren???
it's getting to be a bit much with me
in your experience, does tren insominia ever go away????/ your body ever get used to it or you just have to get off tren???
it's getting to be a bit much with me
Hello John/Heavy,
Had a question regarding the use of HCG vs the use of Fadogia Agrestis.
I have seen more and more people use Fadogia Agrestis in the place of HCG through out their cycle and on into the 4-6week PCT, stating the the use of Fadogia Agrestis is just as effective as HCG, easier to get, and for the most part priced cheaper than HCG.
"The advantage to using on cycle is that it reduces HPTA shutdown by keeping the leydig cells stimulated, and makes transition into Post Cycle Therapy very smooth. Use of exogenous testosterone or harsh oral cycles puts the body’s natural production to a halt and causes erectile dysfunction, elevated estrogen levels, and in a lot of cases could cost you the hard earned gains achieved on cycle. Human Chorionic Gonadotropin or HCG is often used by body builders to minimize HPTA shutdown. This also allows for our libido to remain unaffected on cycle, and in many cases increases libido. The downside to using this compound is that it is illegal and must be administered via a subcutaneous injection several times weekly."
Was wondering what your thoughts on this was, is the use of Fadogia Agrestis just as good/effective as HCG?
Thank you
Had a question regarding the use of HCG vs the use of Fadogia Agrestis.
I have seen more and more people use Fadogia Agrestis in the place of HCG through out their cycle and on into the 4-6week PCT, stating the the use of Fadogia Agrestis is just as effective as HCG, easier to get, and for the most part priced cheaper than HCG.
"The advantage to using on cycle is that it reduces HPTA shutdown by keeping the leydig cells stimulated, and makes transition into Post Cycle Therapy very smooth. Use of exogenous testosterone or harsh oral cycles puts the body’s natural production to a halt and causes erectile dysfunction, elevated estrogen levels, and in a lot of cases could cost you the hard earned gains achieved on cycle. Human Chorionic Gonadotropin or HCG is often used by body builders to minimize HPTA shutdown. This also allows for our libido to remain unaffected on cycle, and in many cases increases libido. The downside to using this compound is that it is illegal and must be administered via a subcutaneous injection several times weekly."
Was wondering what your thoughts on this was, is the use of Fadogia Agrestis just as good/effective as HCG?
Thank you
Hey ther John/Heavy,
DIM (di-indolmethane) is derived from the phytochemical IC3 (Indole-3-Carbinol). DIM works by converting estradiol into a less potent, and less harmful, form of estrogen called estriol. Although both DIM and IC3 can be found in nutrient supplement forms, IC3 is also found naturally in cruciferous vegetables such as cabbage, broccoli and kale. In supplement form, DIM is more easily absorbed into the body.
DIM (di-indolmethane) is derived from the phytochemical IC3 (Indole-3-Carbinol). DIM works by converting estradiol into a less potent, and less harmful, form of estrogen called estriol. Although both DIM and IC3 can be found in nutrient supplement forms, IC3 is also found naturally in cruciferous vegetables such as cabbage, broccoli and kale. In supplement form, DIM is more easily absorbed into the body.
Buckeye Fan
Registered
What kills more estrogen Arimidex or Aromasin. What exactly is a suicidal aromatase inhibitor? Thanks!
No, not in my experience.
They both reduce E2 about 50% on average in males but Arimidex has a much longer half life in males. 47 hours vs 9 hours for Aromasin.
Aromasin
(Exemestane)
Aromasin is a steroidal aromatase inactivator used to lower circulating estrogen. It was developed to help fight breast cancer as estrogen plays a role in the growth of cancer cells. Aromasin binds irreversibly to the aromatase enzyme. This suppresses the conversion of androgens into estrogen. Circulating estrogen can be reduced by nearly 85% in women using Aromasin. A common misconception is that aromatase inhibition is similar in men than women. However in trials when males were administered 25mg of Aromasin daily, maximal estradiol suppression of 62 ± 14% was observed at 12 hours. The reason for the difference may be related to the the much higher testosterone concentrations in young males than in postmenopausal women and the shorter half-life of exemestane in males. The terminal half-life in males (8.9 h) was considerably shorter than the published value of 27 h in females. This may be a basis for more frequent administration in men (or women administering testosterone) that want maximal E2 supression.
Aromasin acts as a false substrate for the aromatase enzyme, and is processed to an intermediate that binds irreversibly to the active site of the enzyme causing its inactivation, an effect also known as "suicide inhibition." In other words, Exemestane, by being structurally similar to the target of the enzymes, permanently binds to those enzymes, thereby preventing them from ever completing their task of converting androgens into estrogens. When we compare this mode of action against other AI’s the benefit becomes clear. Arimidex can unbind from the aromatase enzyme when you stop taking it but Aromasin will not. Therefore, there is less chance of estrogen rebound with Aromasin.
Aromasin can be employed during a steroid cycle when aromatizing compounds such as testosterone are administered in order to control estrogen from getting out of control. During the course of a typical steroid cycle estrogen can rise quite high. Estrogen has been measured as much as 7 times higher than normal in men on steroids. This is excessive and can potentially cause water retention, gynecomastia (the formation of female breast tissue), negatively effect libido or cause benign prostatic hyperplasia. Therefore in order to avoid these side effects estrogen must be controlled.
Aromasin not only lowers circulating estrogen and sex hormone binding globulin but it also increases free testosterone by a whopping 117%! Total testosterone increases about 60%. Check out the performance of Aromasin after just 10 days of treatment in males.
FIG. 1. Estrogen and androgen plasma levels after 10 d of daily exemestane (25 or 50 mg) in healthy young males (mean ± SD; n = 9–11). To convert to Systeme International units: estradiol, picomoles per liter (x3.671); estrone, picomoles per liter (x3.699); androstenedione, nanomoles per liter (*0.003492); and testosterone, nanomoles per liter (x0.03467).
Aromasin may be used during a steroid cycle with aromatizing compounds and during PCT to help keep the estrogen to testosterone balance in favor of testosterone. Out of all the medications to control estrogen, Aromasin seems to be the most well balanced. It raises testosterone similar to Arimidex and lowers estradiol about 10% better than arimidex in men and is likely to cause less estrogen rebound than Arimidex. Keep in mind that 50mg of Aromasin daily kept estradiol in the normal range for men so if you think using an aromatase inhibitor will crush estrogen too much this science supports the opposite. Additionally, plasma lipids and IGF-I concentrations in men were unaffected by Aromasin treatment. From the data I have read and my years of experience with this medication, 25mg of Aromasin every other day is a good starting point on moderate doses of testosterone. If testosterone doses are raised then 25mg daily may be needed to control estrogen. Since either high and low estrogen can cause side effects such as low libido only labs can determine the appropriate dose of Aromasin.
Reference
Pharmacokinetics and Dose Finding of a Potent Aromatase Inhibitor, Aromasin (Exemestane), in Young Males
~heavyiron
(Exemestane)
Aromasin is a steroidal aromatase inactivator used to lower circulating estrogen. It was developed to help fight breast cancer as estrogen plays a role in the growth of cancer cells. Aromasin binds irreversibly to the aromatase enzyme. This suppresses the conversion of androgens into estrogen. Circulating estrogen can be reduced by nearly 85% in women using Aromasin. A common misconception is that aromatase inhibition is similar in men than women. However in trials when males were administered 25mg of Aromasin daily, maximal estradiol suppression of 62 ± 14% was observed at 12 hours. The reason for the difference may be related to the the much higher testosterone concentrations in young males than in postmenopausal women and the shorter half-life of exemestane in males. The terminal half-life in males (8.9 h) was considerably shorter than the published value of 27 h in females. This may be a basis for more frequent administration in men (or women administering testosterone) that want maximal E2 supression.
Aromasin acts as a false substrate for the aromatase enzyme, and is processed to an intermediate that binds irreversibly to the active site of the enzyme causing its inactivation, an effect also known as "suicide inhibition." In other words, Exemestane, by being structurally similar to the target of the enzymes, permanently binds to those enzymes, thereby preventing them from ever completing their task of converting androgens into estrogens. When we compare this mode of action against other AI’s the benefit becomes clear. Arimidex can unbind from the aromatase enzyme when you stop taking it but Aromasin will not. Therefore, there is less chance of estrogen rebound with Aromasin.
Aromasin can be employed during a steroid cycle when aromatizing compounds such as testosterone are administered in order to control estrogen from getting out of control. During the course of a typical steroid cycle estrogen can rise quite high. Estrogen has been measured as much as 7 times higher than normal in men on steroids. This is excessive and can potentially cause water retention, gynecomastia (the formation of female breast tissue), negatively effect libido or cause benign prostatic hyperplasia. Therefore in order to avoid these side effects estrogen must be controlled.
Aromasin not only lowers circulating estrogen and sex hormone binding globulin but it also increases free testosterone by a whopping 117%! Total testosterone increases about 60%. Check out the performance of Aromasin after just 10 days of treatment in males.
FIG. 1. Estrogen and androgen plasma levels after 10 d of daily exemestane (25 or 50 mg) in healthy young males (mean ± SD; n = 9–11). To convert to Systeme International units: estradiol, picomoles per liter (x3.671); estrone, picomoles per liter (x3.699); androstenedione, nanomoles per liter (*0.003492); and testosterone, nanomoles per liter (x0.03467).
Aromasin may be used during a steroid cycle with aromatizing compounds and during PCT to help keep the estrogen to testosterone balance in favor of testosterone. Out of all the medications to control estrogen, Aromasin seems to be the most well balanced. It raises testosterone similar to Arimidex and lowers estradiol about 10% better than arimidex in men and is likely to cause less estrogen rebound than Arimidex. Keep in mind that 50mg of Aromasin daily kept estradiol in the normal range for men so if you think using an aromatase inhibitor will crush estrogen too much this science supports the opposite. Additionally, plasma lipids and IGF-I concentrations in men were unaffected by Aromasin treatment. From the data I have read and my years of experience with this medication, 25mg of Aromasin every other day is a good starting point on moderate doses of testosterone. If testosterone doses are raised then 25mg daily may be needed to control estrogen. Since either high and low estrogen can cause side effects such as low libido only labs can determine the appropriate dose of Aromasin.
Reference
Pharmacokinetics and Dose Finding of a Potent Aromatase Inhibitor, Aromasin (Exemestane), in Young Males
~heavyiron
Buckeye Fan
Registered
Would 12.5mg every 12hrs be good? I'm on 750mg test and estro is 260s without AI
I think that would be a good place to start. You could get labs and see how your E2 is then adjust dose accordingly.
dutchmaster454
Registered
hey John, quick question about t3. i used it last time pre contest and i ran a cycle of it for about 8 weeks. is this to long? i am starting another cut now with tren/prop/winni and will start my t3 at week 4. i always ramp up usually to 50 and stay there for awhile because i get great results for about 2 weeks on 50, than go to 75. however i feel when i go to 75 i sacrifice to much muscle as pre contest i went to 100mcg for a few weeks and deff lost muscle. however the upside was honestly i ate some serious shit food 3 weeks out almost eod and i was still shredding the fuck up and looking tight. only problem is on lower cal days i was flat as a pancake and lost muscle in the end. anyways my question is, how long is it ok to run t3? without bad damage ? i feel after 8 weeks of t3 i ramped down and than had slight random pains that would hit in the front of my throat near thyroid for about 3 weeks. it lasted maybe 4 seconds long. now it is gone, my thyroid is fine, i lose weight easily and gain it good as always, never to fat at all as ive been bulking and IF my thyroid was shut down id be fat as fuck and i have a 6 pack at the moment . but i feel that 8 weeks almost shut me down? like idk im skeptical about running it again i guess you could say. but it works SO GOOD!!!! so what are your thoughts? maybe just run it 4 weeks never higher than 50?
John, what are your PCT thoughts for 19 nor's? Is it unchecked prolactin levels that cause problems, long esters, the compound itself, or? Deca seems to have a lot of good properties, but the broscience is not very positive.
You may run T3 your entire prep without problems most of the time. 3 months is fine if that's your prep duration. I like T3 at 50-75mcg's daily. I did do a run at 60mcg's daily and I liked that the best. I have done several 5 month runs with T3 and recovery of thyroid was not a problem at all.
Recovery after years of T3 use happened within a few weeks of cessation of T3 according to the following studies. On the net there are tons of people saying you may permanentaly shut down your thyroid with prolonged use of T3 but science says the opposite.
Recovery of pituitary thyrotropic function after withdrawal of prolonged thyroid-suppression therapy.
Vagenakis AG, Braverman LE, Azizi F, Portinay GI, Ingbar SH.
The pattern of thyrotropin secretion was analyzed in seven euthyroid women, before and after withdrawal of long-term thyroid hormone, by serial measurements of thyroid 131l uptake, serum thyroxine, tri-iodothyronine, and thyrotropin concentrations, and the response to thyrotropin-releasing hormone. During exogenous hormone administration, 131l uptake was suppressed, and serum thyrotropin concentrations before and after administration of thyrotropin-releasing hormone were undetectable. After withdrawal of exogenous hormone, thyrotropin secretory function was transiently impaired, as indicated by undetectable basal thyrotropin concentrations together with absence of response to thyrotropin-releasing hormone, and subsequently by normal values of basal thyrotropin concentration and normal responses to releasing hormone while serum thyroxine and tri-iodothyronine concentrations were subnormal. Decreased thyrotropin reserve persisted for two to five weeks. Detectable values of serum thyrotropin (less than 1.2 muU per milliliter) and a normal 131l uptake usually occurred concurrently in two to three weeks. Serum thyroxine concentration returned to normal at least four weeks after hormone withdrawal.
PMID: 808728 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Patterns off recovery of the hypothalamic-pituitary-thyroid axis in patients taken of chronic thyroid therapy.
Krugman LG, Hershman JM, Chopra IJ, Levine GA, Pekary E, Geffner DL, Chua Teco GN.
To determine the patterns of recovery of the hypothalamic-pituitary-thyroid axis following long-term thyroid hormone therapy, TRH tests were performed on 8 euthyroid nongoitrous patients, 5 euthyroid goitrous patients, and 5 hypothyroid patients while they were taking full doses of thyroid hormone and 3, 7, 10, 14, 17, 21, 28, 35, 42, 49, and 56 days after stopping it. Serum TSH, T3, and T4 were measured before and at multiple intervals over a 4-h period after giving 500 mug TRH iv. In euthyroid non-goitrous patients, the mean duration of suppressed TSH response to TRH (maximum deltaTSH less than 8 muU/ml) was 12 +/- 4 (SE) days after stopping thyroid hormone and the mean time to recovery of normal TSH response to TRH (maximum deltaTSH greater than 8 muU/ml) was 16 +/- 5 days. None of the euthyroid nongoitrous patients ever hyperresponded to TRH; their average maximal deltaTSH was 24.5 +/- 2.2 muU/ml. Serum T4 fell below normal in 4 euthyroid non-goitrous patients, reaching lowest values at 4 to 28 days. While serum T4 was low, deltaTSH was subnormal. Normal increments of T4 and T3 after TRH occurred at 19 +/- 5 and 22 +/- 6 days, respectively. In the 5 goitrous patients, patterns of recovery of pituitary and thyroid function assessed by the same parameters were much less consistent. In the 5 hypothyroid patients, the mean duration of suppressed basal TSH and suppressed deltaTSH was 13 +/- 3 days; mean time to attain a supranormal basal TSH (greater than 8 muU/ml) was 16 +/- 4 days and to reach a supranormal deltaTSH (greater than 38 muU/ml) after TRH was 29 +/- 8 days. Following prolonged thyroid therapy in euthyroid patients, recovery of normal TSH responsiveness to TRH preceded recovery of the normal T3 and T4 response to TRH by 3 to 6 days. Basal serum TSH may be used to differentiate euthyroid from hypothyroid patients 35 days after withdrawal of thyroid therapy; the response to TRH does not improve this differentiation.
PMID: 807596 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
msumuscle
Registered
Buckeye Fan
Registered
Gay porn?
msumuscle
Registered
^^^^ duhhh!!!
Nandrolones seem more difficult for guys to recover from. I like to drop Deca and run Test a few weeks longer before going into PCT. I then advise a standard PCT with a SERM.
If prolactin levels are high guys will have problems so checking prolactin is advised.
dutchmaster454
Registered
heavy what do you think is the overall best cycle for mass ?
Heavy, can you please chime in on my next bulker:
1-10 Test E 750 mg
11-18 Test E 1 g
1-13 Deca 600 mg
1-4 Test P 70 mg ED
19-20 Test P 70 mg ED
1-4 Insulin, 50 mg Dbol
9-12 Insulin, 50 mg Dbol
17-20 Insulin, 50 mg Dbol
Letro 0.3 mg EOD
(I've done slin before)
Tnx!
1-10 Test E 750 mg
11-18 Test E 1 g
1-13 Deca 600 mg
1-4 Test P 70 mg ED
19-20 Test P 70 mg ED
1-4 Insulin, 50 mg Dbol
9-12 Insulin, 50 mg Dbol
17-20 Insulin, 50 mg Dbol
Letro 0.3 mg EOD
(I've done slin before)
Tnx!
I really like Deca, Cyp and a strong oral like D-bol or anadrol. Maybe even Superdrol.
1 gram Cyp weekly
400mg Deca weekly
50mg D-bol daily
Run 10 weeks and EAT!
Looks stout but the Letro dose is too low. 2.5mg Letro eod.
Hi John Connor, what ancillaries are you recommending with this beast of a cycle?
