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Should Bonds get an Asterisk?

Should he get an asterisk?

  • Yes

    Votes: 29 55.8%
  • No

    Votes: 23 44.2%

  • Total voters
    52
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min0 lee said:
Sorry, but that's not enough proof. :D

I just can't understand how his numbers got better with him getting older.

God.....am I sounding like Johnnny..:eek:

Mino-

we have nothing to prove. YOU need to prove that steroids DID in fact make him hit homers. We can't debate something that's subjective when there's nothing to debate (cuz we said steroids DIDN'T do anything)

MY POINT IS: steroids ARE NOT giving him that swing. they ARE NOT making hit that homer on the ONE STRIKE he sees per at bat, if he's even lucky enough to get one pitch at all to hit.

TRUST ME, bro. It's ALL about your swing. Juice may just make the ball go a tad farther. Look at Ken Griffey Jr. Tell me steroids would've made him the greatest homerun hitter of all time had he not gotten injured all the time.

IT'S ALL ABOUT THE SWING...
 
Flex said:
They DO enhance their physical performance, but ONLY slightly.
Everyone has their own opinion, but even a slight enhancement at a professional's level is the difference between Good and exceptional.
 
min0 lee said:
I just can't understand how his numbers got better with him getting older.

Why not :shrug:

Just because they are getting older doesn't mean anything. It seems to be a pretty popular thing nowadays anyways...

Brett Favre, Jordan, Schilling, The Unit....
 
SPIKE1257 said:
Everyone has their own opinion, but even a slight enhancement at a professional's level is the difference between Good and exceptional.

I can agree with that. You ever see Bull Durham? I didn't care for it myself, but there is a pretty good scene where Crash Davis says the difference between a .275 and a .300 hitter is only one hit per week.

EDIT: But like I said, Bonds was winning MVP's before this steroid stuff started.
 
SPIKE1257 said:
Everyone has their own opinion, but even a slight enhancement at a professional's level is the difference between Good and exceptional.

See, i disagree, bro.

A SLIGHT enhancement WON'T turn someone into Barry Bonds' caliber, and that's ALL steroids will give you.

Barry Bonds is one of the top 2 hitters of ALL TIME. Bro, they DON'T pitch to the guy. And every time he's at bat, he does one of four things.
He:
a) hits a homer
b) doubles or singles
c) strikes out (once in a blue moon)
d) walks (most common, b/c they DON"T pitch to him)

I don't care if you're on ALL THE JUICE IN THE WORLD. it Will not make you into someone of Barry Bonds' caliber.
 
Flex said:
I don't care if you're on ALL THE JUICE IN THE WORLD. it Will not make you into someone of Barry Bonds' caliber.

Excellent point. Just look at JEREMY GIAMBI. :lol:
 
Flex said:
Mino-

we have nothing to prove. YOU need to prove that steroids DID in fact make him hit homers. We can't debate something that's subjective when there's nothing to debate (cuz we said steroids DIDN'T do anything)
Just look at how many home runs he hit before he started the steroids and what he has done since being on them.. Did he ever hit 70 home runs in one year before using steroids. There is really no question what the drugs have done for him, but believe what you want.
 
SPIKE1257 said:
Just look at how many home runs he hit before he started the steroids and what he has done since being on them.. Did he ever hit 70 home runs in one year before using steroids. There is really no question what the drugs have done for him, but believe what you want.

So, you're gonna tell me that steroids gave him Superman vision that allows him to see that ONE strike he gets (AT MOST) per at bat, and then steroids give him the ability to jack that thing outta the park, SO OFTEN?
 
I Are Baboon said:
Excellent point. Just look at JEREMY GIAMBI. :lol:
Actually he wasn't all that bad, the last 2 years he's been hurt.
[size=-2][/size]
 
If he took the juice and the risk it carries ... it was for the benifit. He deserves the asterisk. He is top shelf, but he knew before he started to hit the gear he would get the * ... so give it too him. You must with out a doubt still call Bonds ONE of the top players in the game to have ever hit a ball ... but he made his choice for us when he took the juice.
 
Flex said:
So, you're gonna tell me that steroids gave him Superman vision that allows him to see that ONE strike he gets (AT MOST) per at bat, and then steroids give him the ability to jack that thing outta the park, SO OFTEN?
Just saying look at the before and after, and Jeremy Giambi is barely an average player to begin with, all the juice in the world isn't going to make him great, as opposed to Bonds who was already a multiple MVP .
 
Flex said:
i hear ya, spike.

but seriously, it's not even bout the HR's.

Look at his OBP and BA compared to the amount he walks.

ITS UNREAL.
I hear ya.. It's going to be interesting to see how all this plays out.
 
I voted No. I don't care for Bonds as a person he is an outstanding ballplayer. I bet there are several "natural" baseball players around stronger then Barry Bonds and don't hit what he does/did.
I have no problems with baseball players juiceing. If they get stronger, so be it. If it helps their career by being able to play longer even better. Look at pitchers. Since they came out with "Tommy John" surgery this has help put another 5+ years on most pitchers (John Lieber etc.).
 
Flex his numbers are steller ... fucking awesome. He has to be held to the same rules as the lesser players do.
 
BoneCrusher said:
Flex his numbers are steller ... fucking awesome. He has to be held to the same rules as the lesser players do.

I understand that!

but like i said, all the steriods in the world won't give him that batting average, on base %, walks or even the HR's. they MAY make the balls go a little further cuz he's stronger, but that's it, bro.

and btw, do you honestly believe no one else in MLB is juicin? Or is it just cuz Bonds is succeeding while juicing he should be held accountable?
 
Just did some googling and found this.Quick question results
It now appears that Barry Bonds has taken performance-enhancing drugs. How should his status in the record book be affected?
bar_blue.gif
[size=-2] 50.71%
Bonds' records should be stricken from the books
[/size]

bar_purple.gif
[size=-2] 27.08%
Bonds' records should remain in the books, but include an asterisk
[/size]

bar_red.gif
[size=-2] 22.21%
Bonds' records should remain untouched
[/size]
clear.gif
Total Votes:3120
 
Do like in Motorcycle racing, A stock class and an unlimited open.
All the roids you want.
 
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I tend to wonder myself if he were a more of a likeable player would there be such a public outcry. Look at Mark McGuire, rumors of him using steroids has always followed him yet he is more likeable. I probably wouldn't even post this if it was him.



I have always found Bonds to be an arrogant jerk, Bonds and humility
have not met. He doesn't do humble. He leads the majors in homers and
arrogance.


He dissed Babe Ruth, now I know he is a Yankee (sorry Flex but we got him fair and square ) but if you???re a true baseball fan you can appreciate who he is and what he has accomplished.



You don't disrespect The Bambino; deference to him is baseball law. If
America's Pastime has a god, it's Babe Ruth.


Maybe Bonds forgets that one of the things the Babe is remembered for
is leading his team to a few World Series championships, something Bonds will never do. The Babe also hit his home runs without the use of
steroids. Oh yeah, Bonds one more thing, can you win 20 games like the
Babe did?


I 'll give you an example.....when McGuire broke Maris's record he had enough class to go over to his family, remember that. Very touching moment.

Barry just talks shit, No class.

Phew I am tired.....
 
Flex said:
I understand that!

but like i said, all the steriods in the world won't give him that batting average, on base %, walks or even the HR's. they MAY make the balls go a little further cuz he's stronger, but that's it, bro.

and btw, do you honestly believe no one else in MLB is juicin? Or is it just cuz Bonds is succeeding while juicing he should be held accountable?
I guess what I am trying to say Flex is that if you do roids you forfit all claims to the records set by the players who set then while clean. You lose by default regardless of how great of a player you would have been without them. We have one record book and all entries MUST be on even terms. No exceptions. Other wise what wouold be the point of keeping these records in the first place. 15 years from now we will have the new improved juice allowing guys to hit like no one could in the now. One set of rules anchanged for all time. Babe can then be on even ground with Barry and Mark. Any numbnuts can crunch the numbers to equal out the greater number of games played per season to still keep the legendary Babe Ruth hit per hit with Barry Bonds. Bands has to have not used the juice to compare raw talent against raw talent.
 
I voted No.

Steroids or not, the guy hit 73 home runs. Records are there for our pleasure only. If you feel the need to not honor his record, as I will be doing, you can, but the fact still remains: Barry Bonds hit 73 home runs in one season.
 
I know as well as you a large numbers of pros juice. I would if I were in their shoes. We are talking big money here. Just the same I would not expect to hold my record against heros like the Sultan of Swat if I juiced to get my numbers up.
 
I think people have the right to do what they want to their bodies. What bothers me is:

1. They lie about it all of the time, and do BS "don't do drugs" speeches to kids.
2. They MOST DEFINITELY have an advantage when taking 'roids.

How can anyone who's tried steroids disagree with point 2. Haven't you seen your bench press go up rapidly? If 'roided out muscles have nothing to do with hitting

You can't have it both ways, guys. You want to say steroids rock if used properly, etc., but then you say they don't do anything for performance? Come on...that's bullshit. What about enhanced recovery? In a sport like MLB, where you play every night on end? It totally matters. They increase your performance and give you an advantage that clean players don't have. That's the crux of the issue.

It's akin to peeking at your opponents cards every tenth hand in poker...the advantage does begin to matter, even if both players are experts/pros.

Again, you want to talk base running? If you're taking EPO and other stuff, your speed gets faster. Look at the track runners who use/abuse. They go clean (Marion Jones) and they start running college-level times.

If steroids didn't work and make you better at sports, no one would care, but the fact is, they sure as hell do.

I just wish people would be honest. No one injects themselves with GH and stuff that shrinks your balls AND will violate your contract and public image if its not totally worth it. If Bonds was so amazing, so "naturally gifted," why would he feel compelled to use steroids, especially given the claim that they don't help?

Come on. They work. That's why people use them. That's why he hit 70+ homers.

Make two leagues--the freak league and the natty league. At least then people wouldn't lie. It's the deceipt that is so annoying.
 
I vote no. I still think he is talented and I always look at it from another point of view. How do we know that players didn't use juice in the 50's and 60's too? It's not like steroids were suddenly invented ten years ago. Arnold used to take dbol in the 50's. I'm quite sure that many athletes have been using performance enhancing drugs for many many years - it's just now that the public is much more aware of it through advanced testing and stricter regulations. One of my favourite sayings is "it's only a crime if you get caught."

Canseco used steroids in the late 80's. I'm quite sure there were players 20 years before that who used them as well.
 
brodus said:
What bothers me is:

1. They lie about it all of the time, and do BS "don't do drugs" speeches to kids.

First of all, i bet your parents NEVER said "ya brodus, i used to get HAMMERED. then i'd drive home. then we'd smoke weed till we were SO high, man".
Why do you think they do this? Why do you think people DONT come out about EVERYTHING? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. Because its NOT your business. b/c it blows up in your face like it is doing right now. B/C they are on a national stage where every single little thing they do is on display, UNLIKE "unfamous" people, who are the first to criticize. Why would Arnold ever lie? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. Probably b/c every kid who ever lifted a weight would do roids if he came out one day and said "yes, they're wonderfuL".


brodus said:
2. They MOST DEFINITELY have an advantage when taking 'roids.

How can anyone who's tried steroids disagree with point 2. Haven't you seen your bench press go up rapidly? If 'roided out muscles have nothing to do with hitting


How does anyone disagree? Well, let's see. Because it DOESNT MAKE YOU HIT THE BALL. IT DOESNT GIVE BONDS HIS .380 batting average. IT DOESNT GIVE HIM THAT ABSURD ON BASE %. IT DOESNT MAKE HIM HIT THAT ONE STRIKE, if lucky, HE SEES EVERY AT BAT.

what it WILL DO is MAYBE make the ball go farther. baseball is not analagous to weightlifting, or track and field, where you strength is perfectly akin to your performance. i'll use my perfect example......KEN GRIFFEY JR.


brodus said:
They increase your performance and give you an advantage that clean players don't have.


Sure, they MAY make the ball go a tad farther. but it AINT gonna make you connect with that 95mph fastball.


brodus said:
If steroids didn't work and make you better at sports, no one would care, but the fact is, they sure as hell do.


in baseball, not NEARLY as much as you, or anyone, thinks they do.



brodus said:
I just wish people would be honest. No one injects themselves with GH and stuff that shrinks your balls AND will violate your contract and public image if its not totally worth it. If Bonds was so amazing, so "naturally gifted," why would he feel compelled to use steroids, especially given the claim that they don't help?


Why? because that way people CANT put all their success and their whole career into one little pill or injection, which people do. IDIOTS think "Oh, if i were to juice, i'd look like Ronnie Coleman". IDIOTS think, "b/c Bonds juiced, he hit 73 HR's"



brodus said:
Come on. They work. That's why people use them. That's why he hit 70+ homers.

ok, this is my last statement. If they worked so well, how come EVERYOne isnt hitting 70 HR's.
 
p.s. for the record guys, all of you who voted "yes" and don't like all the "deciet", the integrity of sports went straight out the window when they started doing free agency, then it became all about the $.
 
Sure, they MAY make the ball go a tad farther. but it AINT gonna make you connect with that 95mph fastball.
A tad further you say, as a kid I must have seen Strawberry hit a least 10 warning track outs a season to say the least. I do think with some juice those balls would have gone tad further and become homers.
 
Quote from Cecil Fielder

Steroids issue angers Fielder

Former Tiger questions the big power numbers players have generated

By Peter Kerasotis / Florida TODAY






The last legitimate home-run hitter rewinds his mind and pauses on the year 1990, when he did something nobody in the American League had done since 1961 ??? hit more than 50 homers.

???When I hit 51 (as a Tiger) in 1990,??? Cecil Fielder says, ???it was the first time anybody had broken 50 in, what, almost 30 years? Now you look at it and it???s being done every year. There???s some really funny stuff going on.???

Funny, but nobody is laughing.

As baseball is set to begin its season in earnest, dark clouds of steroids suspicion threaten to rain on its 162-game parade. An estimated 5 percent of players tested positive for steroids last year, and a federal investigation involving a northern California laboratory charged with distributing designer steroids might reach a trial this summer, implicating some of the game???s most glamorous players.

Says Fielder, ???I think that Reggie, who is one of the guys who is truly a 500-and-above home-run hitter, really spoke his piece about this and said it best.???

Reggie would be Hall of Famer Reggie Jackson, who last month told the Atlanta Journal-Constitution: ???Somebody definitely is guilty of taking steroids. You can???t be breaking records hitting 200 home runs in three or four seasons.

???The greatest hitters in the history of the game didn???t do that. Henry Aaron never hit 50 in a season, so you???re going to tell me that you???re a greater hitter than Henry Aaron? Barry Bonds hit 73 in 2001, and he would have hit 100 if they would have pitched to him.

???I mean, come on now. There is no way you can outperform Henry Aaron and Babe Ruth and Willie Mays at that level.???

Fielder echoes Jackson???s sentiments.

???Barry Bonds hitting 73 home runs. Mark McGwire hitting 70. That???s outrageous. For a guy who hit 50, I can tell you that that???s a task in itself. For a person to hit 70 home runs in a single season, that is outrageous.???

Fielder is quick to note Bonds is ???probably the greatest pure hitter??? he???s ever seen and that ???I???m not saying I know anybody in the game who is taking steroids, because I don???t.???

Still, he sees what the game has evolved into, and he shakes his head.

???Everything is speculation. But I look back on some of the guys that hit 50 home runs after I did and say, ???Damn. OK. He did it???? I don???t know.???

What he does know is that all the publicity the steroids scandal has generated is troubling and damaging.

???Baseball is getting some serious bad black eyes because of things that are going on. As an ex-player looking in, I think we need to get things back to normal because baseball is a pure game and, in my opinion, the greatest game in the world. We???ve had some things in the past to deal with, scandals. We don???t need that.???

That is what is foremost in his mind ??? the game. After that, Fielder worries about players and their health. He mentions former football player Lyle Alzado, who, at 43, died in 1992 of brain cancer after admitting to more than two decades of steroid use.

???Nobody really understands the ramifications of doing this,??? Fielder says.

???Nobody really has any knowledge of what their chances are of living past their 60th birthday. It???s all great and fine and dandy to make all the money and do the things you do in your career. But what will you do when you have to go to the doctor, like Lyle Alzado did, and find out you???re dying? Is it worth it? I don???t think so.???

Even if players do avoid the health risks of using steroids, and whatever records or sparkling statistics they accomplish don???t become null and ???roid, Fielder believes there???s an even larger penance that waits. And it resides in a person???s conscience.

???Those guys, man, are going to have to look at themselves in the mirror one day and say, ???I wasn???t true to the game.??? I think that???s the worst penalty any athlete can inflict on themselves, that, at the end of the day, when it???s all said and done, and they???ve had an incredible career, did wonderful things in the game, they???re going to have to look in a mirror and deal with what they see for the rest of their lives.

???To me, that???s the worst punishment.???

It???s a punishment he knows he???ll never have to face.

???I???m very comfortable with myself,??? Fielder says of a 13-year career in which he hit 319 home runs. ???I know that what I did was all natural. I don???t have to answer those types of questions from anybody. I don???t have to look in the mirror and know that I cheated.???

He pauses.

???You know, I feel bad we???re even talking about this. Baseball has got to clean the kettle. They???re sitting in their own kettle right now and the kettle they???re sitting in is black and they???ve got to clean the dirt out of it, and they???re going to have to do it themselves. I know they don???t want to have anybody else in there. Both sides have to work to get the game back to where it needs to be.???

Back to where it was in 1990, when Cecil Fielder was the game???s last legitimate home-run hitter.
 
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