So what's the truth?

[bsc14]

I have decided to be healthy and get the body I have always wanted however I'm reading so many different things my head is spinning. I have started eating 5-6 small meals a day and trying to find a good program wile I do this. I have not started to workout just yet because I want to know what I'm doing before I get in the gym. Anyway, I have read in several different books / magazines that say high protein intake is the way to go to build muscle, then last night I was reading another book that said "high protein intake" is not the way to go. It said if you eat decent then you probably already get enough protein in your diet (so things like protein shakes aren't necessary) and that to much protein can have side effects like weight gain. So, high protein or not. Also I'm curious about creatine. At what point should I start using it? Does it cause weight gain? What are the side effects if any?

 

[Mudge]

Originally posted by bsc14 It said if you eat decent then you probably already get enough protein in your diet

That is way, way too vague. Part of a "good diet" is calorie counting, which means you should have a purpose to what your eating, not just eating stuff at random and saying "this is good for me, so I must be getting enough protein".

In theory, creatine causes weight gain through extra water retention intramuscularly. Make sure you observe your water intake when using it, .66x your bodyweight in pounds = ounces is the formula I've seen.

 

[Rusty]

What is your hight/weight now.....what are you trying to achive. This information might be a little helpfull to give you an educated answer. And there is an abundance of mag's out there that will confuse the hell out of you.

 

[Arnold]

if you continue to use different sources and talk to different people it's almost inevitable that you will continue to get contradictory advice.

one will say high protein, another will say moderate, etc., etc., etc.

The general rule of thumb as far as bodybuilding is concerned is one gram of protein per pound of body weight. So if you weigh 175lbs your goal would be 175 grams of protein per day, at 6 meals per day this would be about 30 grams of protein per meal.

Some will say you need more, 1 1/2 - 2 grams of protein per pound, but I find that very difficult and shoot for one gram.

As far as weight gain it's a matter of the amount of calorie intake versus expendenture. In other words if you eat to much you will gain weight. If you're trying to gain mass then you need to gain weight and some of the weight gain will be fat.

If you have not even started working out I do no think you should worry about taking creatine right now. Focus on a good diet and training program, take a multi-vitamin and get yourself some good protein powder.

 

[bsc14]

Thanks guys. I have bought some MET-RX Protien Plus Whey and Mega Men multi-vitamins. I also bought the GNC mega creatine but I guess I can hold off on that. Thanks again.

 

[Twin Peak]

Read everything you can. Figure out the common denominators. Apply the tried and true theories, as well as the ones that have scientific backing and therefore, make sense. In the end, there is no one answer and the goal is to figure out what works best for you.

This applies to lifting, nutrition, cardio, and supplementation.

 

[Arnold]

Originally posted by Twin Peak
Read everything you can. Figure out the common denominators. Apply the tried and true theories, as well as the ones that have scientific backing and therefore, make sense. In the end, there is no one answer and the goal is to figure out what works best for you.

This applies to lifting, nutrition, cardio, and supplementation.

yeah, you can do that, as well as come here and ask specific questions and get the opinions of people that are knowledegable, and also look thru old threads and you may find discussions on the topic you're interested in.

we also have some good articles on www.ironmagazine.com


hey Twin Peak, it might be helpful if you list some of these "tried and true theories" for bsc14.

 

[Twin Peak]

Originally posted by Prince
yeah, you can do that, as well as come here and ask specific questions and get the opinions of people that are knowledgable, and also look thru old threads and you may find discussions on the topic you're interested in.

we also have some good articles on www.ironmagazine.com


hey Twin Peak, it might be helpful if you list some of these "tried and true theories" for bsc14.

Even asking questions here will provide you with multiple training styles and multiple approaches to diet. Remember our incline versus flat discuss?

I wasn't steering him away from here by any stretch just saying that even the "pros" don't agree on a single best way.

That said, there are consistencies (common denominators) across most of the experts, these are the things to which I was alluding.

For example the AMA requirements for protein is generally considered an antiquated (sp?) approach by all. All bodybuilders will agree that 1g per pound of bodyweight is necessary. They will then disagree over whether that is enough or 1.5 or 2 x BW is optimal. So, for example, after he learns this about protein, he can try diets at each of these levels and see what products the best "results" for him, noting that only he can define the results he is looking for.

This holds true for training styles (for example, HIT, circuit training, HST, EDT, powerlifting (various sub-styles), Mentser-like training, volume training, etc.). All of the reasonable designed programs will produce results. Some more quickly than others. And the relative order of effectiveness will change from person to person.

This holds true for nearly ever aspect of bodybuilding whether it be comparing diet philosphies or the minutia of what rep range works "best".

Since this person asked for "the truth" I told him "the truth", rather than pretend like there is a single truth, and that I have it.

Now, if he asked for a good plan, and he gave some history and background then my response would be different.

P.S. The "tried and true" reference was meant to discount ridiculous outlier-type (or outdated) methods/styles/theroies. Such as the AMA model for eating/dieting. Another than comes to minds is the diet that recommended that you only eat one meal per day but you could eat "whatever you want".

 

[Arnold]

I agree, however what should he (or anyone) read?

Most bodybuilding books are produced by magazine companies these days, MuscleMag, M & F, etc. Most "diet" books are the latest fad diets. Anymore I do not even bother with them unless I want to see some good pics. So, if you go to the local bookstore it would be very difficult for a beginner to determine what is worth reading and what is not.

So, I guess my point is to tell someone to go out and read everything might be a great long term goal, but it's not going to help a beginner get started.

There are many "guidelines" that are generally agreed upon in regards to training and nutrition, especially for a beginner.

Such as, the 1 gram protein rule, utilizing basic copmpound movements, adequate recovery (not weight training more than 2 days in a row), stay in the 6-10 rep range, 5-6 small meals every 3 hours, etc.

that's what I was implying.


So bsc14 why don't you post your current daily diet, and a training program if you have one.

 

[Twin Peak]

Oh, I agree with that completely. And "reading" doesn't necessarily imply that one purchase books or magazine. I'd say on average over the last month I have read a bodybuliing related article a day learning of various styles of training and nutrition that I previously knew little about.

There is lots of good info here in the form of articles and threads, as you pointed out. There are also tons of great articles on many other bodybuilding sites, forums, etc.

P.S. I wasn't addressing what he should do as a beginner, since that appeared covered. I was simply opening his eyes to the fact that there is no truth.

But here is my specific advice:

Read the threads here regarding diet and training. Read member posts and follow the principles and advice of the members for whom you develop respect and whose advice seems to jive with your life philosphies. Find out where they got there info from. Challenge them. Learn who the great minds of bodybuilding (whether it be lifting or nutrition, etc) are and read everything they write. Read articles from various well-known authors, if you like it, read more.

Develop a plan. Ask people for help comments, etc. But not matter what you do, someone will have some way to tweak it, so you need to just impliment it, and track, through a journal, how it works, or doesn't, for you.

 

[bsc14]

"So bsc14 why don't you post your current daily diet, and a training program if you have one."

Well I don't have a "program" just yet. I'm working on that. That's one of the reasons I'm here talking to you guys. Right now I'm thinking this:

Day 1: Arms and Shoulders
Day 2: Rest
Day 3: Butt, Thighs, and Legs
Day 4: Rest
Day 5: Chest, Abs and Back
Day 6: Rest
Day 7: Rest

Well what do you think?
As far as diet it's been about 5 -6 small meals a day. Things like 100% whole wheat bagels, Tuna, low fat granola bars, fruit, chicken / soup. Things like that.

Right now I have some fat to lose but if I can add some muscle at the same time that would be great.

 

[Arnold]

a typical 3 day split, which is fine, however I always found chest and back to be difficult to work together.

might want to try:

1 chest & shoulders
2 rest
3 back & arms
4 rest
5 legs
6 rest
7 repeat

or something like that.

the most popular split is probably chest & tris and back & bi's however I do chest & bis and back & tris.

I am going to change it though to:

1 chest & shoulders
2 rest
3 back & traps
4 rest
5 arms on their own day
6 rest
7 legs

 

[bsc14]

Ok. Thanks. Now what about my diet?

 

[Twin Peak]

All right, you broke me down. Here are some good general guidelines for a beginner, maybe we should sticky this:

- Eat 1-1.5g protein per pound BW
- Eat 12-18 cals per pound BW (12 if primary goal is losing, 18 if gaining, middle ground if both)
- Eat 5 meals per day, with protein in each meal
- Have a shake post w/o. It should include 50+ grams of whey and 50-100g of dextrose
- Train each bodypart every 4-5 days
- After 6-12 months switch to once per week
- Do 2-3 exercises per bodypart
- Do between 8-12 WORKING sets (don't include warm ups), per bodypart
- Primarily train in the 6-10 rep range
- Try to train to failure
- Occassionally go as low as 1 and as high as 15
- Always warmup
- Always stretch
- Eat plenty of good fats, little saturated
- Don't eat sugars except post w/o
- Staple foods (core diet) include fish, lean meat, chicken, tuna, WHOLE eggs, oats, sweet potatoes, veggies, flax oil
- Beginner Supplements include multivitamin and protein, THAT'S IT

 

[bsc14]

Thanks!!

One thing...you wrote "Do between 8-12 sets"????

 

[bsc14]

8-12 sets per body part??? Is that even possible?

 

[Twin Peak]

working sets per bodypart, I edited above.

I also added that you should try to train to failure.

 

[Twin Peak]

How many did you plan on doing?

 

[Arnold]

Originally posted by bsc14
8-12 sets per body part??? Is that even possible?

I agree with all of his guidelines (I already posted several of them myself).

as far as 8-12 sets, depends on the bodypart.

for biceps I sometimes only do 6 sets, for legs (quads & hams) I probably do around 15.

I guess 8-12 could be a general number, but 12 sets for biceps would be excessive IMO, and 12 sets for legs might not be enough.

 

[bsc14]

I thought 4 sets was average??? Good thing I'm talking with you guys!!

 

[Arnold]

oh, I am talking per bodypart, not per exercise.

 

[bsc14]

"oh, I am talking per bodypart, not per exercise."

Oh ok. How many per exercise? As many as I can?

 

[Arnold]

no, it depends on the exercise and the bodypart.

example: I might do 4 sets of preacher curls and 2 sets of barbell curls for biceps, or the other way around.

I might do 5 sets on leg press, and the 3 sets of lunges for quads, and maybe even 2 sets of leg extensions.

it just depends...that's why it was pointed out earlier there is no black and white answer when it comes to bodybuilding, training, diet, nutrition, supplements, etc.

 

[bsc14]

I see. Thanks guys!

 

[Mudge]

1g protein per pound is a great starting point, try to start out with more than that and your body may react, in uncomfortable ways, plus it would be difficult to reach as a starting point as that would be a MASSIVE change in diet.

 

[Twin Peak]

I personally think 1.5 grams is better. But I agree that you need incremental changes. Starting at 1 and periodically bumping it up when you are stalling is a smart idea.

 

[Mudge]

Yep, I reached 1.3g per pound and gains pretty much up and died. If someone is willing to wait 10 years for that extra 20 pounds though...