Some questions about ketosis

[Phineas]

Sorry about starting a new thread for such an old topic, but I thought this would be easier.

(1.) How long does it take to go in to ketosis? Wouldn't this theoretically be once I've burned up all glycogen in my body? Let's say I woke up and ate a bagel with my breakfast, containing 50g carbs, and it burned off by 10:00 AM. Wouldn't my body then begin to shift to alternative energy sources?

(2.) Why can't you achieve a similar state from a simple low-carb diet. Let's say my usual bulking carbs is 350g/day. If I decrease to 100g, so maybe a potato before a workout, a couple cups of milk, and a banana, but eat it all within an hour and a half of my training why wouldn't I be in ketosis before and after my workout, after burning off those carbs?

(3.) How does ketosis differ biologically from a low-carb diet? (i.e. 100g) For instance, what is going on in the body on low carb that's different than a ketogenic diet? You're still not providing your body with enough of its primary fuel source. Why wouldn't this still allow the body to shift at different times of the day into fat oxidation?

(4.) How can high-intensity training be properly performed when the body has no glycogen?

(5.) What measures must be taken to preserve muscle mass if taking a simpler low-carb approach as opposed to no carbs at all?

I've read many our respected members such as Merkaba, Cowpimp, and Ian Daniel stress the simpler approach of "calories in vs. calories out", and this is the approach I find much more realistic. I know that carbs aren't essential to life, but they're extremely helpful in our realm.

I've been trying to get my head around this ketosis stuff for a while. I'm even a couple days into an ketosis experiment where I'm eating under 30g carbs for a few days, and I feel like total shit. My workout yesterday was horrendous after the first couple sets. I felt sluggish and unmotivated.

I've read that some people function well in ketosis while others can't. I just need more information to be sold on what to me seems like such a risky, unhealthy approach. Even if ketones are an efficient source of fuel for the brain and muscles, so many people who have posted their results here on ketogenic diets have cited irritability and frustration.

Is this really the ideal approach to fat loss? Whatever happened to balanced diet with a simple modest calorie deficit?

 

[uknowwho]

1) Most people it takes around 3 days to get into ketosis. If you're doing a CKD type diet the longer you do it your body tends to go into ketosis quicker at the end of the carb up. I think you are overestimating how quickly your body will burn those carbs.

2) This sounds more like a TKD style approach to a ketosis diet. All or most carbs taken in right before and after working out. You MAY be able to enter ketosis on 100g of carbs a day if you time them right, but not likely.

3) Your liver will produce ketones for energy when there is no longer a supply of glucose.

4) High intensity workouts are tough on a true ketogenic diet. They are generally used for dropping bodyfat effectively. You will likely feel weaker and generally like crap but you WILL burn fat.

You can google CKD or TKD or Lyle McDonalds UD2.0

 

[DaMayor]

Sorry about starting a new thread for such an old topic, but I thought this would be easier.

(1.) How long does it take to go in to ketosis? Wouldn't this theoretically be once I've burned up all glycogen in my body? Let's say I woke up and ate a bagel with my breakfast, containing 50g carbs, and it burned off by 10:00 AM. Wouldn't my body then begin to shift to alternative energy sources?

About three days.

(2.) Why can't you achieve a similar state from a simple low-carb diet. Let's say my usual bulking carbs is 350g/day. If I decrease to 100g, so maybe a potato before a workout, a couple cups of milk, and a banana, but eat it all within an hour and a half of my training why wouldn't I be in ketosis before and after my workout, after burning off those carbs?

Because, in most cases, a carb intake above 20g per day would only keep you on the verge of ketosis. In other words, ketosis will only take place when glycogen stores are fully depleted. At that point your body will turn to the next available energy source..FAT.

(3.) How does ketosis differ biologically from a low-carb diet? (i.e. 100g) For instance, what is going on in the body on low carb that's different than a ketogenic diet? You're still not providing your body with enough of its primary fuel source. Why wouldn't this still allow the body to shift at different times of the day into fat oxidation?

Depletion isn't a 'binary' (quick off~on) condition. Such a shift takes, well, about three days, lol. Seriously, the purpose of lower carb diets is mainly to control/avoid 'spill-over' (i.e., the conversion of carb intake above one's requirements) from turning into fat.

(4.) How can high-intensity training be properly performed when the body has no glycogen?

It ain't easy .....If nothing else I say is accurate...I got this one, lol. Trust me, anyone who maintains a low carb diet strictly and properly will learn a lot about themselves while in the gym. Discipline and focus will be put to the test, because one's energy level is subject to crash without warning.

(5.) What measures must be taken to preserve muscle mass if taking a simpler low-carb approach as opposed to no carbs at all?

Just maintain you minimum protein intake, and keep workouts short and sweet. Heavy weight/decreased reps.

I've read many our respected members such as Merkaba, Cowpimp, and Ian Daniel stress the simpler approach of "calories in vs. calories out", and this is the approach I find much more realistic. I know that carbs aren't essential to life, but they're extremely helpful in our realm.

Low carb, no carb, low fat.....Deosn't matter. Calories in~Calories out is the bottom line.

I've been trying to get my head around this ketosis stuff for a while. I'm even a couple days into an ketosis experiment where I'm eating under 30g carbs for a few days, and I feel like total shit. My workout yesterday was horrendous after the first couple sets. I felt sluggish and unmotivated.

I'd go even lower on the carb intake...get it over with, y'know?

During the first two days, and possibly the third, you may (probably will) feel like you've been hit by a truck. You may experience headaches, lack of energy, lethargy, dry mouth, sensation of increased body temperature, (due to slight dehydration if you don't keep your water intake up and/or don't take the proper supplements) and irritability.....this will eventually taper off.

I've read that some people function well in ketosis while others can't. I just need more information to be sold on what to me seems like such a risky, unhealthy approach. Even if ketones are an efficient source of fuel for the brain and muscles, so many people who have posted their results here on ketogenic diets have cited irritability and frustration.

Ketosis is a very liveable state, and isn't as unhealthy as it was originally thought to be. Remember, Ketosis and Ketoacidosis are two completely different conditions. Ketosis just means that your body is producing Ketones as a byproduct of fat metabolism/breakdown.(lipolysis)

Is this really the ideal approach to fat loss? Whatever happened to balanced diet with a simple modest calorie deficit?

It just depends on the individual.....a matter of choice. Personally, I have much better results with carb restrictive diets....and have found that restricting both fat and carbs (RFL/PSMF) produces great results....with no adverse effects whatsoever.....other than having to buy a bunch of new clothes. I'm down 32lbs. in 12 weeks....and I haven't killed anybody.

You really should check out Lyle's book....all of your questions are addressed there. Hope this helped.

 

[Phineas]

Thanks!

What book is this? Where do I find it?

 

[DaMayor]

Thanks!

What book is this? Where do I find it?

Lyle McDonald has written about this in most of his books, (Rapid Fat Loss [PSMF], UD 2.0, The Ketogenic Diet, Stubborn Fat Solution, etc.) and in the endless articles on his website.

Body Recomp. Website:

Bodyrecomposition - Lyle McDonald

and Forums here:

BodyRecomposition Support Forums - Powered by vBulletin

Lyle spends time on his website, and answers questions that are not addressed in his book(s) or might need further clarification. However, I must issue this friendly warning.....He isn't always the warmest character (flaming anal sphinctor) and is quick to chide people for not reading/seeking answers from the book before asking them on the website.

 

[sassy69]

I'll add some comments from my own experience w/ keto:

(1.) If you dropped carbs completely, you'd start to feel it around the 3rd day - you get fuzzy in the head, and then by day 5 you start to feel more normal because your body has switched over to ketones. Your body tends to run on a system of push/pull balances and passing "thresholds" before other things happen in response.

(2.) You have to be completely depleted and switched over to using ketones. The threshold needs to be achieved and maintained - i.e. more than around 20 g of carbs will push you back out of ketosis.

(3.) Source of energy- carbs are always the first preferred source of energy by the brain and the rest of the body. Ketones are available as a secondary preferred source if the first isn't available. - i.e. different energy source.

(4.) When you're running in ketosis, essentially you have no 'burst energy'. I can do up to 3 hrs of walking cardio /day on low cal, ketogenic diet. But trying to do something like high rep or very heavy leg press makes me nearly black out and I get winded very quickly.

(5.) If you want to stay w/a low carb diet and not go into ketosis, then you need to have refuel cycle (e.g. carb cycle) - running at too low carbs but not enough to go into ketosis just means you're not giving your body sufficient energy source to run on. It will respond by sensing a 'drought environment" and slow down metabolism to preserve the energy sources it knows it has (i.e. your body- muscle, fat). You're much better off providing your body enough energy so it can burn efficiently vs starving it.



I've read that some people function well in ketosis while others can't. I just need more information to be sold on what to me seems like such a risky, unhealthy approach. Even if ketones are an efficient source of fuel for the brain and muscles, so many people who have posted their results here on ketogenic diets have cited irritability and frustration.
--> I cans how you many people working w/ Dave Palumbo who have adapted very well to a keto approach. I foundI didn't have any issues with it - mostly I just occasionally wanted food other than what was on the program. The points of annoyance are when you are riding the edge of ketosis and not into ketosis. This is ane expected switchover time also represents the period of time when your body simply doesnt' have enough of any energy source. I'd expect simliar if you were trying to folllow an ultra low carb diet w/o refeeds.

Is this really the ideal approach to fat loss? Whatever happened to balanced diet with a simple modest calorie deficit?
--> "balanced diet" approach is great for a lifestyle approach. IMO keto is just one form of optimzed fat loss that probably shouldn't be used as a maintenance approach but rather as a fast push to a result and then ease out to a reasonable maintenance protocol.


I agree that Lyle's book(s) address many of the questions you're bringing up. They are good reads.

 

[Phineas]

Thanks sassy.

Can low-carb/carb cycling cuts be as effective as keto diets? (assuming everything is in check)

 

[cheappinz]

I think we eat a ton of carbs by accident if you're not careful. I did the keto diet once and looked great. The only reason I could do it, was because I was unhappy and didn't have an appetite, & it was easy for me then. Now that I'm on an even keel, its hard to deprive myself and its a whole lot easier to limit carbs and just try to be "carb conscious" knowing I can get there almost as fast using this method. Portion control, carb conscious, good exercise. that would take care of it. If you truly want to be in ketosis, you probably will want to find some pure r-ala to incease your insulin sensitivity.

 

[sassy69]

Thanks sassy.

Can low-carb/carb cycling cuts be as effective as keto diets? (assuming everything is in check)

If you really want to get down to it, I think you need to try each and see what works best for you. I think of diets in terms of contest prep - so everything is stripped down to the bone and on a tight schedule. I think something that gets sacrificed w/ keto dieting is your explosive ability. This also shows itself if you are trying to do HIIT-type cardio w/ it. I've seen a lot of discussion lately about how continued SS cardio can change the twitch nature of your muscles.

I've had success in cutting on both keto & carb cycling. I can't tell you which I prefer because I applied keto when my trainer fell off the face of the earth 10 weeks out from a show and I was way behind in my cutting. Keto + pretty aggressively low calories brought me into show time in decent shape but at a cost of muscle. I'd attribute that to the excessively low total cals and not specifically to keto.

I've seen people respond wonderfully on keto, and others just come in flat and with a muscle deficit.

I think you need to try them both and experiment w/ which you best respond to.

Honestly unless you're in a competition sitiuation, I don't think its useful to go running around looking for the MOST AGGRESSIVE OMFG NEED TO LOSE A PILE OF WEIGHT NOW kind of diet. Its always a cyclic process of grow & cut, and its got to fit w/ your goals, your training and cardio approach & expectations (ref: my comment above about explosive energy -- on keto it just ain't gonna happen) and your lifestyle needs. Carb cycling can be hard when you have to go thru a really low carb day on every cycle - these always leave you w/ a fuzzy head and a shitty attitude. Keto, you only have to pass thru that once and then stay in ketosis.

I think probably carb cycling will have less of a rebound effect and is easier to ease into a maintenance program whereas keto will go thru more water retention and dealing w/ switching back to carbs. I think keto also makes you more insulin resistant - this can be an issue when trying to fill out during peak week of a show prep. You cut like crazy, but you'll be flat until you fill out, but filling out now has the extra variability factor introduced by this and you may blow your carb up and just spill over. Or not fill out enough.

 

[Phineas]

Thank you very much for that post sassy. You've really helped me understand all of this.

I'm not actually looking for a get lean quick diet. Just for future reference when I decide to finally cut I want to know what's the smartest approach for myself. I'll have to try both like you said and she what works for me.

Thanks for everyone's input! Solid information.

 

[Merkaba]

I think everyone should try ketosis. It will teach you alot about yourself. And yes it's easy to get alot of accidental carbs and the next thing you know you look up and oh crap you've had 20 grams of carbs. "Oh I didn't know that had sugar in it, or that had starch in it"
Every time I've went in it or close to it I dream about bread.

 

[DaMayor]

I think everyone should try ketosis. It will teach you alot about yourself.

I've said this before....if you really want to know what you're made of, capable of, stick to an ultra-strict low carb diet and hit the gym. You will most definately make the mind~muscle connection, or you'll quit.

And yes it's easy to get alot of accidental carbs and the next thing you know you look up and oh crap you've had 20 grams of carbs. "Oh I didn't know that had sugar in it, or that had starch in it"

This is where folks need to learn self-discipline...and how to READ THOSE LABELS. Then, research the product even further.Way too often I read people's diets that are being undermined by those hidden grams of sugar, et al. Y'know, by the FDA's standards, manufacturers are not required to include suger,calories, etc. below 5 grams on their nutritional labels. Splenda has 3.32 cals per serving. Coffee creamer showing 0 sugar lists sugar right at the top of the ingredient listing. If you are on a strict low carb plan, that one gram is just enough to ruin days of effort.

 

[sassy69]

I think everyone should try ketosis. It will teach you alot about yourself. And yes it's easy to get alot of accidental carbs and the next thing you know you look up and oh crap you've had 20 grams of carbs. "Oh I didn't know that had sugar in it, or that had starch in it"
Every time I've went in it or close to it I dream about bread.

I highly recommend competition prep if you want to strip yourself down to what God gave you to work with and see how you deal and what you learn about yourself - mentally, physically, emotionally & spiritually. I consider my first show my greatest personal achievement and the bigged mindfuck of my life.

 

[Merkaba]

I highly recommend competition prep if you want to strip yourself down to what God gave you to work with and see how you deal and what you learn about yourself - mentally, physically, emotionally & spiritually. I consider my first show my greatest personal achievement and the bigged mindfuck of my life.

I second that. And Built helped me with my first contest prep. I did PSMF and dropped 30 lbs in a month. Lost ten pounds of water the last two days and probably couldve gotten first instead of a close second if I had another two days of prep.

 

[Phineas]

I second that. And Built helped me with my first contest prep. I did PSMF and dropped 30 lbs in a month. Lost ten pounds of water the last two days and probably couldve gotten first instead of a close second if I had another two days of prep.

What's your BF in your pics where you're 12 weeks out from contest?

 

[Phineas]

I highly recommend competition prep if you want to strip yourself down to what God gave you to work with and see how you deal and what you learn about yourself - mentally, physically, emotionally & spiritually. I consider my first show my greatest personal achievement and the bigged mindfuck of my life.

Do you find yourself constantly hungry while on zero carbs? No matter how much, protein/fat alone seems to keep me full (and I don't mean free of mental cravings but physically satisfied) for no more than an hour.

 

[DaMayor]

Do you find yourself constantly hungry while on zero carbs? No matter how much, protein/fat alone seems to keep me full (and I don't mean free of mental cravings but physically satisfied) for no more than an hour.

Not trying to hi-jack Sassy's response....

If you stay on a low carb plan (especially 20g or less per day, as with PSMF) for any length of time, your appetite will diminish drastically.

 

[Merkaba]

Not trying to hi-jack Sassy's response....

If you stay on a low carb plan (especially 20g or less per day, as with PSMF) for any length of time, your appetite will diminish drastically.

Well not everybody!

 

[Merkaba]

What's your BF in your pics where you're 12 weeks out from contest?

i think it was bout 10 to 12. Somewhere in there. Can't remember, and only used calipers

 

[sassy69]

Do you find yourself constantly hungry while on zero carbs? No matter how much, protein/fat alone seems to keep me full (and I don't mean free of mental cravings but physically satisfied) for no more than an hour.

I have used hoodia for a long time to help deal w/ the "cravings" - basically it kills your "taste" for things. Anecdotally it seems to work for some , not others. Works for me so I use it. The result, however is I have NO taste for anything. When I completed competition last year and went off it for a while, it was crazy when my taste for things came back. I really missed enjoying eating.

With that, and doing it for competition enough times, its not an issue for me. If I'm starving, I will eat something. IMO the resulting tension headaches I get when I'm that hungry are worse than just friggen eating something to deal w/ it. I also tend to go straight to light-headed from depletion before I actually get hungry.