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Squat Question

CourtQueen

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Ok - I've really started pushing the weight up on the squats. I feel like my legs could squat more but I'm starting to feel unstable holding the bar.

What do I do? Not push the squats until my back is stronger for the bar? What types of things do you look for in someone that you are training to know that they have hit their max because of this issue?

Does that make sense??
 
Yes I do not train to my full potential at times because of that reason. You need to get a GOOD spotter, then you can push the limit!! Make sure to use somebody you trust not just any idiot in the gym.
 
Definately work on your core ....stabilization muscles...especially the transverse abdominus. Also worj to strengthen the erector spinai...my recommendation is to use a stability ball and do supermans (oposite arm/leg raises and hold for 5 seconds as well as extensions on the ball with your feet close together and up against the wall...if it's too hard to balance (a sign you need to improve your core stability) simply move you feet farther apart.

A spotter is not the solution nor is a weight bely unless you've been training a long time. If your relatively new you need to develop your core musces (rectus abdominus, interal/external obliques, transverse abdominus, erectore spinai) before you lift heavy...if not you WILL get injured in due time...almost gaurenteed!
 
Well, I wouldn't say that I'm a beginner but I probably could use some core work. Thanks Fit -

Unfortunately I don't know anyone that I would consider a good spotter at my gym. Actually, I don't know anyone at my gym ....
 
Yes a weight belt is not the answer, I do not agree with the ball superman movements although "core" muscles as we know them have come in the spotlight as of late, probally because of the influx of yoga and pilates. Now I have trained my core for sports over the years so the concept is not new to me. Core muscle groups are not directly utilized during a squat movement, now back yes and abs but to call that core muscles could be an overstatement. I am a firm believer that you must have a very strong lower back before you even try to do abdominal or "core" type excercises. Most power lifters have strong lower back and abs but cannot do simple core movements. This is a true test of core strengh, do a sit up, knees up feet flat and then lower yourself to the floor, slowly. once down pick your body back up while keeping feet flat, slowly. That is "core" strengh. Now strong spinal erectore muscles is a must and good old fashined good morning will work for thoose.
 
Originally posted by CourtQueen
Ok - I've really started pushing the weight up on the squats. I feel like my legs could squat more but I'm starting to feel unstable holding the bar.

What do I do? Not push the squats until my back is stronger for the bar? What types of things do you look for in someone that you are training to know that they have hit their max because of this issue?

Does that make sense??

Makes sense.Like what was already said work on your lower back/abs that will definitely reduce the chance of injury.
If you're working out on a standard squat rack there should be adjustable bars that act as a spotter.
 
Core muscle groups are not directly utilized during a squat movement, now back yes and abs but to call that core muscles could be an overstatement.

Sorry bro, but after studying kineseology and biomechanics,, and being a personal trainer I am going to have to disagree with this statment. The core musculature is most definetly utilized during a squat.

The term "core" is often throw around and understood as having stron abdominal and back musculature. This can be misleading as the true defenittion of core stability should actually be refered to as the proper mangment of lumbo-pelvic rhythm. So with that defenition in mind lets take a look at the biomechanics of a squat (please don't take this as me trying to be a know it all or trying to talk down to you in any way. It is just that squats are often discussed and many times they are discussed improperly. That being said it does not mean that you have to agree with any of my statments:) ):

When we squat our feet are typically about shoulder width apart and our toes are pointed slightly outwards. This can debated b/c some say toes should be pointed straight ahead however looking at the structure of the human body the femur does not approach the into the acetabulum at a 90degree angle. Rather, it approaches anteriorly to posteriorly which creates a natural foot potition of about 7 degrees of outward rotation of the foot.

Now looking at the muscles and how they can affect core stabalization (lumbo-pelvic rhythm). When we squat down we are going into hip flexion. The musculature which performs hip flexion is the illiacus, psoas major, rectus femoris, sartorius and TFL. When our hips go into flexion our biceps femoris, semimebrinosis, semitendonosis and gluteus maximus will pull on the pelvis. To much hip flexion and those muscle will cause us to go into a posterior pelvic tilt which is not safe (*this is not usually the problem when people do squats, it was just metioned for the purpose of discussing the musculature*). The same is true if our trunk/spine go into flexion ( the musculature of spinal flexion is the rectus abdominus, external and internal obliques bilaterally and the psoas major bilaterally), our Quadratus Laborum (back extensor muscle) will pull our pelvis into an anterior tilt, this is not safe either and is usually the place were most people run into problems during squats. If our spine goes into extension (arching our backs backward) then our trunk flexors (rectus abdominus, external and internal obliques bilaterally and the psoas major bilaterally) are going to pull our pelvis into a posterior tilt....not safe either. The hamsrings are a big problem when doing squats becuase usually they are tight in most people. This can be a problem becuase the hamstrings (biceps femoris, semitendonosis and semmebronosis) cross not only the hip but the knee. If your hams are tight you may have trouble getting down for a full range of motion squat. One way most people compensate for this is buy going into spinal flexion and causing an anterior tilt of the pelvis which is not good. Why? Becuase doing this is going to put a lot of strain on the erector spinae muscles which are not really going to be able to sustain the kind of load you are placing/compressing on your spine. Especially since they need to now pull your spine back up from flexion, placing the load out infront of your center of gravity, before you can perform the concentric motion of the squat, coming up......which conssts of knee extension. Also, of your soleus is tight you will have problem doing full ROM squats becuase they will inhibit your ability to dorisflex your foot enough to get down to 90 degrees.

So what is right???

Plave your hands on the top of your hips at your ASIS. Then squat down as far as you can without going into an anterior pelvic tilt. This is you range of motion for a squat for the time being because you want to strech your tght muscles so that you can eventually get down and do a full range of motion. The best way to think about it is like you are going to sit down in a chair. Often times I have clients stand out in front of a bench and tell them to just sit back onto the bench and when their butt touches go back up. Another analogy I use is when I tell them to think about having bags in their hands and they want to go through a door so the first thing they would do is put their butt back/out a little to open the door. Then I have them put their hands on their hips and I look for their range of motion and any anterior pelvic tilt. Another common thing debated is the whole "knees over toes" thing. In my opinion it is okay for your knees to come slightly over your toes as long as you are balanced and driving up though the arch of your foot. Why? Becuase keeping your knees behind your toes is not funcional IMO. When you walk are your knees behind your toes? When you go upo steps are your knees behind your toes? Set my point.

Sorry I got kind of off track and long winded but back to my point. The "core musculature" or the musculature that performs lumbo-pelvic rythm plays and enormus role in squats as it does on most every exercise we perform and everyday life.

Okay, anyone want to disagree or flame me on this????

Start..........NOW!!!!!:D
 
No disagree but you just proved that every move your arms and legs make is a core movement, I never said that was the case I simply, and I emphasize simply, stated that "core" excercises that fitfreak said to do is like telling somebody to simply work all muscle groups, which in fact we do on a weekly basis. Now as far as the kineseology and biomechanics, yes I have been there too, and my 15 years as a personal trainer has taught me more than the books. You give a solid answer and informative answer to her question. Remember her problem was she felt a little unstable, possibily afraid to push the weight up, now when you cannot handle a weight on a bench press you go get a what a spot, helps through the sticking point, you do not say, hey I need to work on my core muscle groups to bench heavier. after all core muscles are responsible for upper body movements as well. Good job p funk nicely written.
 
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Originally posted by MeanCuts
How do you spot someone when they're squating a lot of weight?


You get behind them and put your arms around there waist, but do not touch them!! simulate the downward movenment with them and if they need help just pull back slightly under there arms. If they need more help ,bear hug them and help them up.
 
I agree, every movement is a core movement if you want to look at like that. However if she is shaky that doesn;t simply mean that she needs a spot to help get her through a sticking point. It means that she has a weakness or a muscle imbalance somewhere which needs to be corrected. In my opinion a spot is just putting a bandaide on the problem and may lead to an injury because she is forcing herself to push more weight than she can efficiently stabalize. There are many problem that may cause shakieness during a squat ie weakend hip extensors, maltracking of the knee, poor balance btw hamstring and quad strength. Squats are biomechanically the most difficult exercises to properly perform and I would not push it if she does not feel stable. You are or where a trainer so obviously you know that the hardest thing that we have to do is to get people to do good squats. When squating it is better to be safe than sorry. Just my opinion.
 
Originally posted by sawheet
You get behind them and put your arms around there waist, but do not touch them!! simulate the downward movenment with them and if they need help just pull back slightly under there arms. If they need more help ,bear hug them and help them up.

Help them up huh :laugh:
I think you can help coach them but I wouldn't call it a spot cause if they buckle you can't do nothing but watch.
 
Originally posted by MeanCuts
Help them up huh :laugh:
I think you can help coach them but I wouldn't call it a spot cause if they buckle you can't do nothing but watch.


How? why I dont understand
 
I had a feeling this would bring up some interesting points. I've been doing squats off and on now for over 10 years. Having gone through rehab twice (once for each knee - ACL recon) I've had a lot of work in the form..... I do think that a spotter would make me more comfortable to push the weight a bit more safely (since I'm probably being a pansy and overly careful). I do think I know my limit to where I could hurt myself also.

P-funk, I think that if I had a muscle imbalance I would have problems at some of the medium weights and not just the high weight range that I'm just starting to get into. I have a feeling it is just a matter of my back getting stronger but I'm not an expert so that is why I posted the thought here. I say this because I remember how strong I used to be pre-pregnancy and I have a long ways to go before I get back to where I was. I don't have back issues such as chronic pain or any other problems like that just need to rebuild.

I think that all the points made are valid. Just some are more important depending on level and experience.

Maybe I'll make an mpeg for you all to critique - then again maybe not ;)
 
Originally posted by sawheet
You get behind them and put your arms around there waist, but do not touch them!! simulate the downward movenment with them and if they need help just pull back slightly under there arms. If they need more help ,bear hug them and help them up.


That is not how you spot someone on the squat. You do want to simulate the downward movement with them but you don't put your arms around their waist, you want to come around under their arms with yours and when they need help, you place your hands on their chest and pull their torso backward. when your form on the squat gives out people tend to bend their back forward and that takes the pressure off their legs and puts tremendous stress on their lower back. By coming from underneath their arms and placing your hands on the chest and pulling back on their torso, you assist them by allowing them to keep their back upright and they are able to finish their rep without throwing their back out, their torso stays upright. Pulling under their arms may interfere with the placement of the bar on their back and further contribute to their difficulty to finish the rep. This does however make it awkward to try and spot a female on the squat b/c she may think that you are trying to grab her breasts, but trust me this way is a much more effective method of spotting someone while allowing them to get out from bottom while keeping good form.
 
Originally posted by gr81
You do want to simulate the downward movement with them but you don't put your arms around their waist, you want to come around under their arms with yours and when they need help, you place your hands on their chest and pull their torso backward. when your form on the squat gives out people tend to bend their back forward and that takes the pressure off their legs and puts tremendous stress on their lower back. By coming from underneath their arms and placing your hands on the chest and pulling back on their torso, you assist them by allowing them to keep their back upright and they are able to finish their rep without throwing their back out, their torso stays upright. Pulling under their arms may interfere with the placement of the bar on their back and further contribute to their difficulty to finish the rep. This does however make it awkward to try and spot a female on the squat b/c she may think that you are trying to grab her breasts, but trust me this way is a much more effective method of spotting someone while allowing them to get out from bottom while keeping good form.

Yup, I agree with your description of spotting someone on squats.

as far as females, just do not put your hands across their breasts, make a fist and keep your palms facing together.
 
Originally posted by sawheet
No disagree but you just proved that every move your arms and legs make is a core movement, I never said that was the case I simply, and I emphasize simply, stated that "core" excercises that fitfreak said to do is like telling somebody to simply work all muscle groups, which in fact we do on a weekly basis. Now as far as the kineseology and biomechanics, yes I have been there too, and my 15 years as a personal trainer has taught me more than the books. You give a solid answer and informative answer to her question. Remember her problem was she felt a little unstable, possibily afraid to push the weight up, now when you cannot handle a weight on a bench press you go get a what a spot, helps through the sticking point, you do not say, hey I need to work on my core muscle groups to bench heavier. after all core muscles are responsible for upper body movements as well. Good job p funk nicely written.

I have to disagree with this statement as well man. You are saying that when someone is having trouble benching you don't work on the core muscle groups, you just go heavier and get a spotter. Not true. All though heavier sets definatley have their worth, you definately want to improve the core muscles that are involved in a multi joint movement such as the squat and the bench. For instance when someone can't go up in the bench and they have hit a plateau, you are saying that it is not beneficial to prioritize certain movements of the shoulders and the tris, both of which are core muscles involved in the bench, to get stronger in the movement. It is the same with the squat. She should listen to her body and not just pile more weight on the bar in hopes that a spotter will rescue her if it is too much. She should indeed strengthen the core muscles that are involved in the squat, like the back which she is complaining isn't as strong as it used to be for her. I think that P-funk is right in his analysis. When powerlifting we all have a weak point during the motion in which we are performing and focusing on strengthing the muscles that are weak can be extremely beneficial to break through plateaus.
 
Sawheet.....When I was referring to the core I meant the TRANSVERSE ABDOMINUS...that is beyond the scope of this thread though...I would recommend him getting a trainer to show him some movements to strengthen the Transverse...which BTW is CERTAINLY involved in a squat.

P-Funk...gr8 post....my posts are coming from my knowledge as a personal trainer as well as courses in kinesiology and anatomy/physiology. There is more to this than practical experience...and you showed it through and through....especially with the biomechanics knowledge:thumb:

Sawheet...I'm not flaming you...I'm just trying to look at the technical side...feel free to do what you choose and I am not expecting you to agree with me...I just don't want to see someone get hurt.

As for supermans....you lay over a ball...lift the opposite arm and leg and hold.....improves balance and stabilization a lot....it's very commonly used by athletic therapists as well a chiropractors.

I'm done now....cheers:)
 
Originally posted by sawheet
How? why I dont understand

Well I max about 440 on squats and I sure don't want anyone trying to pull on my back in anyway;it's hard enough to balance that kind of weight and I don't want the chance of someone else severely hurting me.
If I buckle on 440 that's not going to save me anyway.
It's a good idea for someone who's just starting out and working with rep weight but those bars along side of the squat rack is your spotter with any kind of real weight.
 
Originally posted by gr81
That is not how you spot someone on the squat. You do want to simulate the downward movement with them but you don't put your arms around their waist, you want to come around under their arms with yours and when they need help, you place your hands on their chest and pull their torso backward. when your form on the squat gives out people tend to bend their back forward and that takes the pressure off their legs and puts tremendous stress on their lower back. By coming from underneath their arms and placing your hands on the chest and pulling back on their torso, you assist them by allowing them to keep their back upright and they are able to finish their rep without throwing their back out, their torso stays upright. Pulling under their arms may interfere with the placement of the bar on their back and further contribute to their difficulty to finish the rep. This does however make it awkward to try and spot a female on the squat b/c she may think that you are trying to grab her breasts, but trust me this way is a much more effective method of spotting someone while allowing them to get out from bottom while keeping good form.



Maybe I wasnt clear enough when I posted but I never said putt arms on waist, I do this excact spot method I just did not go into explicit detail
:thumb: :thumb:
 
Originally posted by P-funk
I agree, every movement is a core movement if you want to look at like that. However if she is shaky that doesn;t simply mean that she needs a spot to help get her through a sticking point. It means that she has a weakness or a muscle imbalance somewhere which needs to be corrected. In my opinion a spot is just putting a bandaide on the problem and may lead to an injury because she is forcing herself to push more weight than she can efficiently stabalize. There are many problem that may cause shakieness during a squat ie weakend hip extensors, maltracking of the knee, poor balance btw hamstring and quad strength. Squats are biomechanically the most difficult exercises to properly perform and I would not push it if she does not feel stable. You are or where a trainer so obviously you know that the hardest thing that we have to do is to get people to do good squats. When squating it is better to be safe than sorry. Just my opinion.

Now you are talking betty crocker! Well said. The stabilizer muscles come into play big time, ie hamstrings, extenders, calf's, etc etc could go on forever about the kineseology of a squat. I would work more on my hams and hips and lower back to inprove my squat, or just do perfect form with more reps.
:thumb:
 
Originally posted by MeanCuts
Well I max about 440 on squats and I sure don't want anyone trying to pull on my back in anyway;it's hard enough to balance that kind of weight and I don't want the chance of someone else severely hurting me.
If I buckle on 440 that's not going to save me anyway.
It's a good idea for someone who's just starting out and working with rep weight but those bars along side of the squat rack is your spotter with any kind of real weight.

It's about time someone finally mentioned a squat rack. :thumb:
I never squat heavy without one.

IMHO, the best way to squat with spotters is to have two of them, one standing near each end of the bar, so that if you start to fail, they can each grab one end and help stabilize the bar and help you get the weight reracked.

But I'll take a squat rack anyday.
 
P-funk, I think that if I had a muscle imbalance I would have problems at some of the medium weights and not just the high weight range that I'm just starting to get into. I have a feeling it is just a matter of my back getting stronger but I'm not an expert so that is why I posted the thought here.

No actually the shakey knees can be a muscle imbalance btw. you satrtorius and TFL. I don't have much time to finish this up as to why right now because I gotta go train some clients. I'll be back later today.
P-Funk...gr8 post....my posts are coming from my knowledge as a personal trainer as well as courses in kinesiology and anatomy/physiology. There is more to this than practical experience...and you showed it through and through....especially with the biomechanics knowledge

Thanks FF.

Great dicussion guys and girls.:thumb:
 
I never said my knees were shakey. The imbalance I'm referring to is more in the back and the holding of the bar. The point where it gets more difficult holding it just taking it off the rack and standing before even going into the squat.

Oh, but I would like to hear more of what you have to say about the muscle imbalance thing.
 
Oh, sorry CQ, I mistoook you saying that you felt "unstable holding the bar" in your original post as you were having trouble with performing the squat because you didn't feel your knees were holding up. However, now that you said you had an ACL tear in both knees really throws a monley wrench into the equation. An ACL tear occurs, not just becuase of one single movement which tears it, but it is a built up lengthening of the ACL (which is a ligament, meaning when it lengthens it wont go back) due to the quad to hamstring strength ratio. This can really inhibit the Range of motion in your squat which may be causing you to overcompensate somewhere in your back or core muscuature. So my advice to you is to back up of the weight, using a spotter only puts a bandaid on the problem. Work on getting really solid form that you can control comfortably and work on stretching and flexibility. A lit stretching of the hams before you perform the squats may help (this is the only time I saw strech before a workout). Stretching after your w/o is highly recommended but don't stop there. Try and strech your hams, core musculature and quads daily for about 10-15min. This should really improve your sqaut strength, form and probably improve the strength you have on some of your other lifts.:)
 
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