flashinglights
Registered
I'm going to give you the overall picture of my life first, because I think it would help those of you who are kind enough to give info/insight/suggestions that I may find useful. I do a lot of research on this stuff but we can all benefit from hearing another person's theories, personal experience or advice. Let's face it, we're all hard-headed and think we know it all. I really believe that when it comes to someone's physical state, you need to look at a person's entire lifestyle so that's why I'm sharing all this info about me.
I did an Epistane cycle as my first cycle. I gained about 12-14 pounds. After 3 months, I lost most of my gains. I'd say I retained maybe 6 pounds of lean muscle mass. I didn't use PCT. There's a personal reason for this. I've been on prescription medications before, have asked doctors millions of questions, and I know some of you may disagree but I don't believe in stopping a very strong chemical abruptly and simply replacing it with another to counterfeit a solution to your sudden chemical deficiency, especially when anabolic steroids and SERMS act in very different ways. The way I understand it, your body eventually reacts and adjusts to a higher amount of said chemical and in the case of brain receptors, they need time to atrophy and stabilize your body - which is best if done gradually. So I tapered down the last week on a 4-5 week cycle. Key words: only the last week. That may have been my problem. Btw, I had no side effects from this, except losing a lot of gains over time.
Two other tragic things happened after this cycle that I believe contributed to this high loss:
I lost my job - became BROKE, and since I was wasn't able to pay for classes at college anymore, I lost access to their gym shortly after the cycle so I was limited to doing things like pushups, inclined pushups, pull-ups, situps and (I can't remember what they're called - basically one legged squats where you snap your body up from a chair using one leg which I still actually find very effective, especially when holding weights). Just little things around the house I could use my creativity to do. Clearly this isn't a well-balanced routine but I did what I could with what I had. I also lost interest in working out because I was so stressed over job hunting and focused on that, so I admit I didn't work out as much as I should have. Maybe a 3 day split over the span of 2 weeks on avg. I know being consistent would have helped but if you consider that your livelihood is lost and you need to SERIOUSLY focus on job hunting, in this economy, you should see why I wasn't really worried about maintaining extra muscle for vanity reasons.
I also had very little money for food, especially quality food. Like I said, I lost my job and unfortunately I couldn't apply for unemployment b/c I hadn't been there long enough. From what I always hear, diet is 80% of it. Perhaps the apathy in lifting combined with bad diet is mostly to blame. Plus added stress.
My second cycle was with Tren-FX. By this point, I had proper weight equipment in the basement to do crucial compound-movement exercises for building mass. I also had the ability to eat better as I was making decent money from freelance work. I'd definitely say I took in a lot more quality calories. I had my protein shakes, ate oatmeal and other whole natural foods, all that good stuff. I gained 16 pounds on this cycle and although I lost about 6 pounds, it seemed to be mostly water weight and fat loss because I can lift about the same as I did while I was "on"; I just don't feel that extra motivation I got while "on". One thing I want to point out is that when I tapered or 'ramped down' off of the Tren-FX, I did it much more gradually. What normally would have been a 4 week cycle for most people, was a 6 week cycle for me. I started with 2 a day for a week, went up to 3 a day for a week, up to 4 a day for a week, then down to 3 for a week, then down to 2 for a week, then down to 1 for a week. It was a very smooth, steady ride.
I work out 1-2x a week as of now, from ending that cycle, but I am ready to dedicate myself to this once again since my schedule isn't as hectic and I'' have access to a free gym very soon.
It would be important to note that I DO take Adderall pretty frequently for ADD. In addition to fat/water loss (inherent in amphetamine-based meds), I may have lost a pound or 2 of muscle for these cycles because of this. I've done research on Adderall out of concern for my goals (though it's bittersweet because Adderall helps with my career goals and I'm currently in training classes for my job that require focus so my new livelihood is at stake; while at the same time it tends to curb appetite and although there aren't many studies on it, I believe it may cause muscle loss via other mechanisms such as vasoconstriction which sounds like it could impede availability of nutrients to muscle tissue as well as evoking a boosted metabolism that encourages more of the use of readily available protein in blood that gets used for energy before fat cells are. These are just things I've read, maybe they're not 100% accurate and maybe it depends on the person but I'd love for some people to weigh in on this, who have experience with it.
Now I'm in a much better place financially and emotionally. I have a decent job and in a couple weeks I will have access to the company's gym. Since I am in training, I will have a few weeks before I have access to all of my company's buildings including the gym. Plus, I have proper basic equipment in the basement anyway, so I will have a lot of flexibility in where and when I can work out. Quality food/supplements aren't an issue for me anymore as well. I can afford to buy protein powders, Omegas, natural whole foods, etc. to do this totally right.
The reason I'm bringing all of this up is because I have some questions for you guys as I'm confused over whether or not Havoc is truly as effective as Tren. The two compounds cost the same and people give both great reviews online. The guys I talk to at Nutritionx put them on the same level, essentially. I had better results on Tren but like I said, I took Havoc at a terrible time in my life when I had little resources so perhaps that's why?
It just amazes me that Tren is a compound which actually left me with the same strength gains long after I took it and it was my SECOND cycle. It also kicked in faster. I'm trying to think of some other causes for Havoc being more of a disappointment for me. I had more variety of exercises for my routine (access to a real gym) during Havoc but used basement equipment during Tren. I took my Adderall both on Tren-FX and Havoc but I probably skipped more days on Tren-FX.
Today I went to NutritionX and bought 2 bottles of Havoc because they were out of Tren and I wanted to stick with what I'm familiar with. I bought 2 because I'm considering using a bottle and a half for this cycle, making it 6 weeks in a slightly higher dosage schedule. Would you guys consider this overkill? Or would you do one bottle, wait a few months and do another cycle? I really wanted the Tren as it worked better for me but it's illegal now and unavailable locally.
Basically, what I'd love to hear from you guys is:
1. Do you think Tren really is much stronger/more effective in general (without the factor of my own genetics and reaction to it) or is it more likely to do with my lifestyle at the time or the fact that I only used a week to ramp down?
2. Should I avoid Adderall as much as possible? For this question, I'd really only like to hear from others who take it/have taken it unless you are indeed a Sports medicine Doctor or research scientist of some sort. Many, many weightlifters I know take stimulants regularly so I'm kind of torn on this.
3. If you were to ramp up and down on Havoc (and there's no way around this for me - it's worked in the past with no side effects and net gains, you can't convince me to do it any other way) would doing this with a bottle and a half be overkill as opposed to doing it with one bottle, taking a break from it for several months, then using the other bottle?
4. I'd love to hear some personal tips from you guys on getting the most out of products like this. Anything from trying static contraction methods, recommended nutrient dense foods I might not be aware of, exercises that are extremely effective yet not well known to sort of shock my muscles, just anything really, that you know how has helped you personally. I haven't been on these forums in a while and need to brush up on information before starting this cycle.
I'm so fortunate to have money now to do what I want and have access to a gym and home gym equipment; I really just want to make the most of it, stay dedicated and be open to new ideas/methods.
Thanks a lot for any input. I love this forum and now that I'm back in the game full force, I'll look forward to posting here more often.
I did an Epistane cycle as my first cycle. I gained about 12-14 pounds. After 3 months, I lost most of my gains. I'd say I retained maybe 6 pounds of lean muscle mass. I didn't use PCT. There's a personal reason for this. I've been on prescription medications before, have asked doctors millions of questions, and I know some of you may disagree but I don't believe in stopping a very strong chemical abruptly and simply replacing it with another to counterfeit a solution to your sudden chemical deficiency, especially when anabolic steroids and SERMS act in very different ways. The way I understand it, your body eventually reacts and adjusts to a higher amount of said chemical and in the case of brain receptors, they need time to atrophy and stabilize your body - which is best if done gradually. So I tapered down the last week on a 4-5 week cycle. Key words: only the last week. That may have been my problem. Btw, I had no side effects from this, except losing a lot of gains over time.
Two other tragic things happened after this cycle that I believe contributed to this high loss:
I lost my job - became BROKE, and since I was wasn't able to pay for classes at college anymore, I lost access to their gym shortly after the cycle so I was limited to doing things like pushups, inclined pushups, pull-ups, situps and (I can't remember what they're called - basically one legged squats where you snap your body up from a chair using one leg which I still actually find very effective, especially when holding weights). Just little things around the house I could use my creativity to do. Clearly this isn't a well-balanced routine but I did what I could with what I had. I also lost interest in working out because I was so stressed over job hunting and focused on that, so I admit I didn't work out as much as I should have. Maybe a 3 day split over the span of 2 weeks on avg. I know being consistent would have helped but if you consider that your livelihood is lost and you need to SERIOUSLY focus on job hunting, in this economy, you should see why I wasn't really worried about maintaining extra muscle for vanity reasons.
I also had very little money for food, especially quality food. Like I said, I lost my job and unfortunately I couldn't apply for unemployment b/c I hadn't been there long enough. From what I always hear, diet is 80% of it. Perhaps the apathy in lifting combined with bad diet is mostly to blame. Plus added stress.
My second cycle was with Tren-FX. By this point, I had proper weight equipment in the basement to do crucial compound-movement exercises for building mass. I also had the ability to eat better as I was making decent money from freelance work. I'd definitely say I took in a lot more quality calories. I had my protein shakes, ate oatmeal and other whole natural foods, all that good stuff. I gained 16 pounds on this cycle and although I lost about 6 pounds, it seemed to be mostly water weight and fat loss because I can lift about the same as I did while I was "on"; I just don't feel that extra motivation I got while "on". One thing I want to point out is that when I tapered or 'ramped down' off of the Tren-FX, I did it much more gradually. What normally would have been a 4 week cycle for most people, was a 6 week cycle for me. I started with 2 a day for a week, went up to 3 a day for a week, up to 4 a day for a week, then down to 3 for a week, then down to 2 for a week, then down to 1 for a week. It was a very smooth, steady ride.
I work out 1-2x a week as of now, from ending that cycle, but I am ready to dedicate myself to this once again since my schedule isn't as hectic and I'' have access to a free gym very soon.
It would be important to note that I DO take Adderall pretty frequently for ADD. In addition to fat/water loss (inherent in amphetamine-based meds), I may have lost a pound or 2 of muscle for these cycles because of this. I've done research on Adderall out of concern for my goals (though it's bittersweet because Adderall helps with my career goals and I'm currently in training classes for my job that require focus so my new livelihood is at stake; while at the same time it tends to curb appetite and although there aren't many studies on it, I believe it may cause muscle loss via other mechanisms such as vasoconstriction which sounds like it could impede availability of nutrients to muscle tissue as well as evoking a boosted metabolism that encourages more of the use of readily available protein in blood that gets used for energy before fat cells are. These are just things I've read, maybe they're not 100% accurate and maybe it depends on the person but I'd love for some people to weigh in on this, who have experience with it.
Now I'm in a much better place financially and emotionally. I have a decent job and in a couple weeks I will have access to the company's gym. Since I am in training, I will have a few weeks before I have access to all of my company's buildings including the gym. Plus, I have proper basic equipment in the basement anyway, so I will have a lot of flexibility in where and when I can work out. Quality food/supplements aren't an issue for me anymore as well. I can afford to buy protein powders, Omegas, natural whole foods, etc. to do this totally right.
The reason I'm bringing all of this up is because I have some questions for you guys as I'm confused over whether or not Havoc is truly as effective as Tren. The two compounds cost the same and people give both great reviews online. The guys I talk to at Nutritionx put them on the same level, essentially. I had better results on Tren but like I said, I took Havoc at a terrible time in my life when I had little resources so perhaps that's why?
It just amazes me that Tren is a compound which actually left me with the same strength gains long after I took it and it was my SECOND cycle. It also kicked in faster. I'm trying to think of some other causes for Havoc being more of a disappointment for me. I had more variety of exercises for my routine (access to a real gym) during Havoc but used basement equipment during Tren. I took my Adderall both on Tren-FX and Havoc but I probably skipped more days on Tren-FX.
Today I went to NutritionX and bought 2 bottles of Havoc because they were out of Tren and I wanted to stick with what I'm familiar with. I bought 2 because I'm considering using a bottle and a half for this cycle, making it 6 weeks in a slightly higher dosage schedule. Would you guys consider this overkill? Or would you do one bottle, wait a few months and do another cycle? I really wanted the Tren as it worked better for me but it's illegal now and unavailable locally.
Basically, what I'd love to hear from you guys is:
1. Do you think Tren really is much stronger/more effective in general (without the factor of my own genetics and reaction to it) or is it more likely to do with my lifestyle at the time or the fact that I only used a week to ramp down?
2. Should I avoid Adderall as much as possible? For this question, I'd really only like to hear from others who take it/have taken it unless you are indeed a Sports medicine Doctor or research scientist of some sort. Many, many weightlifters I know take stimulants regularly so I'm kind of torn on this.
3. If you were to ramp up and down on Havoc (and there's no way around this for me - it's worked in the past with no side effects and net gains, you can't convince me to do it any other way) would doing this with a bottle and a half be overkill as opposed to doing it with one bottle, taking a break from it for several months, then using the other bottle?
4. I'd love to hear some personal tips from you guys on getting the most out of products like this. Anything from trying static contraction methods, recommended nutrient dense foods I might not be aware of, exercises that are extremely effective yet not well known to sort of shock my muscles, just anything really, that you know how has helped you personally. I haven't been on these forums in a while and need to brush up on information before starting this cycle.
I'm so fortunate to have money now to do what I want and have access to a gym and home gym equipment; I really just want to make the most of it, stay dedicated and be open to new ideas/methods.
Thanks a lot for any input. I love this forum and now that I'm back in the game full force, I'll look forward to posting here more often.
Last edited:
