The NHE and ONE - cut and bulk

[Robboe]

The NHE/Slow Gain/ONE Experience(s)

This isn't a proper journal as such, just a little way for you guys to get an idea of the gist of NHE. I'd prefer it if it stayed in the diet forum.

Here's a brief run down:

There usually begins a 7-day 'metabolic shift', where you keep carbs at 20g or below and have no carb load. This moves you from a 'sugar burner' to a 'fat burner', as Rob Faigan calls it. I've actually been on a cyclical carb diet since last July (2001) and i've been doing an NHE modification for the past 10 weeks. I'm not doing the full metabolic shift. I see no need to - all it would give me is further thyroid shutdown, even lower leptin, slow my metabolism and make me loose strength - all for very little in beneficial effects.

And i've said it before and i'll say it again, I personally think the 7 day metabolic shift is only for people who use carbs as their major macronutrient - ie someone who has at least 30% of cals coming from carbs everyday and also for everyday people who also tend to get the majority of their cals from carbs (usually sugary ones).




Anyway, here's what i'm eating:

Non-training days:

1. Tin tuna
3 tsp oil

2. 60g chicken breast
144g cottage cheese
20g cashews
green veg

3. Tin tuna
3 tsp oil

4. 60g chicken breast
144g cottage cheese
25g cashews
green veg

5. 5 egg whites, 4 whole eggs

6. Tin tuna
3 tsp oil


Training days:

1. 4 egg whites, 2 whole eggs

2. 60g chicken
94g cottage cheese
15g cashews
green veg

3. 4 scoops simply whey
1 fluid oz whipping cream

4. tin tuna
1oz cream (or 3 tsp oil)

5. 60g chicken
100g cottage cheese
15g cashews

6. Tin tuna
2 tsp oil

7. 200g serloin steak
green veg


Yeah, it's the same food everyday, but i'm quite hardcore as far as diet is concerned - i'm willing to do whatever it takes. Bland, repetative and boring though it maybe.

My carb loads are bi-weekly and will be on saturday nights, which is the night before leg day (in the morning) and tuesday nights ('push' day - chest, delts, tris).

The carb load is gonna be 300g at first, i need to see how they go for the first couple of weeks before assessing if they need changed and lowered or increased.

I plan to get the first 100g from a 50/50 dex/malto mix (with some whey protein for taste, although Rob recommends not actually keeping protein and fat as low as possible during the upcycle to make sure you use all your room for carbs and to prevent any gastric upset.

The remaining 200g will be from oats, potatoes and rice, most likely. I may even use spagettii, since i'm thinking the type of carbs i use won't be that relavent providing they're starchy, since my insulin levels will shoot up anyway (hoping providing some anabolism and maybe even boosting some leptin, even thought i don't plan on overspilling into fat cells).


My first 'official' day of NHE was wednesday, but nothing in my diet changed. Yesterday i trained back and bis and instead of my usual dex/malto post w/o i had whey in water with 1oz cream. Felt a bit weird actually. Usually after my carb/pro shake ingestion i'd feel bloated, 'soft' and feel tired (most likely the seritonnin) but then after my whey and cream i felt quite 'jiggy jiggy', sorta.

For training i did:

back: 8 sets (quite high volume for me actually)
traps: 1 set (the BB rows polished my traps quite nicely)
biceps: 1 superset of cable curls and the arm curling machine thingie. haha. Hell, i dunno the name of it.

The workout was fun. I'm currently working on my wide-grip chinning strength, cause it...sucks basically. But i'm improving, slowly, but surely...

 

[Robboe]

On wednesday i got up at 6am and did some morning cardio on my first ECA in about 7-8 months. I felt it all throughout the day. A nice warm feeling, almost like i was sweating, but not quite.

I had the same ECA today, but no morning cardio (i prefered to stay in bed a bit longer - i need the sleep) and didn't feel quite as warm or for quite as long.

On the night time i went to see Newcastle Utd vs Barcalona.

Quite a crappy match though, but i've wanted to see barca play since i was a wee bairn, so it was cool.

I also nearly caught hypothermia from the rain and wind.

I then met a friend who now lives just outside of Glasgow in Scotland who was down for the week. No alcohol consumption - i've done enough of that the previous monday and friday. No drinking for at least another week, or until i'm settled on NHE.

I think i'm gonna get up and try that stubborn fat program of Lyle's tomorrow. Maybe just down the back lane near me and the around the housing estate, or i may go to the nearby gym. Not quite decided yet.

Anyhoo, that is all.

 

[LrdViperScrpion]

Cool post TCD, although I'm not entirely knowledgeable on all of this stuff, I am interested in seeing how it goes.

 

[Yanick]

TCD, how is this diet different from a CKD? I'm not too familiar with this NHE stuff, but it seems just like a CKD. Low carb for a while then carb up and repeat.

Can you post up some guidelines? Like stay below maintanance (obviously), ratios, carb up ratios, recommended carb grams for the carb up, length of carb up (recommended), any other relevant information. Or point me to a good site that will explain all of these things, as well as the theory behind the diet (i'm guessing something to do with hormones).

 

[Tank316]

cool post TCD, Thanks for sharing.keep us posted please, interesting stuff.

 

[Robboe]

Originally posted by Yanick
TCD, how is this diet different from a CKD? I'm not too familiar with this NHE stuff, but it seems just like a CKD. Low carb for a while then carb up and repeat.

Can you post up some guidelines? Like stay below maintanance (obviously), ratios, carb up ratios, recommended carb grams for the carb up, length of carb up (recommended), any other relevant information. Or point me to a good site that will explain all of these things, as well as the theory behind the diet (i'm guessing something to do with hormones).

That's just it man, there aren't really any recommendations. Rob made this diet as a 'real world' diet for the real world person. The only thing he asks you to count is carbs on the metabolic shift - under 20g, and then on the downcycle (the days between your carb loads) he states men can take in between 30-60g a day from indirect carb sources (direct ones tend to cause cravings) and women between 20-40g. Indirect carb sources are carbs you get from other foods with small carb counts like certain fruits (not dried fruits or carb dense ones, just fibrous watery ones are allowed) green veg, nuts, cheeses etc...

Protein should be between 20-50g a meal, a minimum of 4 meals a day, eating every 4 hours at the least, although he recognises life and commitments may get in the way. But if your protein is higher or lower in some meals, what the hell.

There are no tabs on fat - he just recommends being realistic and basically not just taking the piss by eating jars of PB etc...

He also gives some very good reasons for not counting calories, although i do personally believe to get to low bf%'s you need to count and control calories.

The carb load is bi-weekly. Every 3rd and then 4th day. No tabs on carbs here. He just says to binge like fuck. Mostly on starchy carbs, keeping fat and protein as low as possible, but it is a real world, average person diet, so you can do a little cheating here if you feel you need it. It's perfectly acceptable. You basically space the carb load out over the two meals before bed eg. one at 8pm then one at 10pm, bed by 10:30 or 11pm.

If you think about it, you're not actually gonna be able to pack down that many carbs in such a short sitting without feeling totally ill, so it's quite clever in that respect - making people think they can eat as much as they want, only to be (unknowingly) stopped by their own limitations. Makes people think the diet is more 'free', if you will.

By the way, nice guess that it's about the hormones, what with it being called 'natural hormonal enhancement' and all that...

It's not CKD, no. It's not a ketogenic diet. To hit keto, you need sufficient fat and lower protein. NHE is mod fat, mod/high protein. Basically, not enough fat and too much protein to get into ketosis for most people (although some may still achieve ketosis during the downcycle, and more likely during the last day(s) of the metabolic shift).

They're the same as far as "cyclical periodical carb loading" goes, but ckd = 5 days of essentially no carbs followed by 2 days card up. NHE = 3 days and then 4 days of low carbs followed by shorter carb ups, without being in ketosis.

Check out www.extique.com and check out the 'ask rob' section, there's some great info on there. If you want all the relavant reading, then buy the book

 

[Robboe]

Now i think of it, over the course of this thread (which, from the positive feedback so far, i will continue to update) you'll probably learn all you need to learn about NHE without having to buy the book, but it's a fantastic read that i implore anyone/everyone to read.

 

[Robboe]

The reasons for the pre-bedtime carb loading are:

1. To stop you continuing eating fat when your insulin levels have been increased (fat goes straight to fat cells if sufficient insulin is present).

2. To make sure you don't feel horrible and bloated during the day.

3. To ensure the seritonnin coma that you'll experience doesn't effect your job or your life (remember, 'real world' person just wanting to lose fat and keep it off).

(I'll scan for my post on carbs and the seritonnin effect cause i've already written it up somewhere on this forum).

4. So you don't get a shit load of cravings to binge on more carbs - usually initiated by falling insulin levels which then boost ghrelin levels and makes you crave food - carbs predominantly. I'm guessing PYY3-36 and MCH also interacts with this in some way or form via NPY and the meloncortin, but don't as me for specifics right now, i'm not entirely sure myself. He wants you to eat the carbs to ensure you prevent thyroid downregulation as much as possible, not to spill over for leptin purposes. This is actually one of the reasons why NHE is considered 'outdated' - because it only merely references leptin as a hormone that plays a big part in the fat loss picture, after all, it was written before 95 and leptin research was few and far between back then.

 

[Robboe]

Ok, found it quicker than i expected. It's a quote of mine from a thread in supps.

The EC cause release of the catecholmines (type of neurotransmitters) adrenalin [also called epinephrine] and noradrenalin [also called norepinephrine] and you can deplete them over time from too much stimulation from outside influences - in this case, ECA. It also messes with neurotransmitters like dopamine, which can also be depleted. Thus, you start to feel run down and lethargic.

The catecholmines precursors are aminos acids phenylalanine for noradrenalin and tyrosine for dopamine. So if you eat foods with these aminos high in the profile (like cheese, or my fav, cottage cheese) you can restore them or maybe stop them from falling in the first place. You could also consider the use of supplemental aminos but it's not really necessary.

Incidentally, if anyone has something that need clear mental focus for, eating cheese or cottage cheese is a good idea of a food to eat a few hours before hand.

And that is exactly why i eat some much cottage cheese besides the fact that i'm actually addicted to it.


I do actually have a small jar of half gram L-tyrosine tabs for when i've been on ECA for a bit longer. I'm not taking it (ECA) everyday just yet. I need to get a hold of some more, which is rather hard since the E of the stack is actually illegal over here. I don't want my adrenals totally exhausted from the stuff cause i hate feeling run down and fatigued.

I've also heard on the grape vine of some other forums that taking 1g of L-tyrosine with ECA is quite a headfuck and almost sickly. Maybe i'll find out tomorrow, although i am planning not to use the E straight away in the morning before cardio, just the C and the tyrosine.

 

[Yanick]

Thanx for the info TCD, i'm going to have to check this out, it is very intriguing, and please do post your results here.

Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy
By the way, nice guess that it's about the hormones, what with it being called 'natural hormonal enhancement' and all that...

*Note to self, never use sarcasm around TCD*

 

[w8lifter]

A most excellent thread Chicken Baby! I've stickied it...you have to update it now

So...you are still planning on using the ephedrine even after reading what Lyle said about it?

.....jiggy eh?

 

[w8lifter]

Oh...and I forget...your morning cardio...is that on empty?

 

[Jodi]

Hi Chicken Daddy! Thanks for sharing this with us, I'm really interested in seeing how this goes. I'm trying to learn and understand the science behind this so I really look forward to reading this.

 

[Dr. Pain]

Gr8 journal TCD


DP

 

[Robboe]

Originally posted by w8lifter
So...you are still planning on using the ephedrine even after reading what Lyle said about it?

Well i didn't bother before the cardio today, but i may in about an hour cause i'm tired as hell now, and i wanna read some more of LOTR III some time today (most excellent book).

I got up, took 2g L-Tyrosine, 200mcg caffiene and a multivit. Waited about 30 minutes (impractical for me to wait even more) and then headed off.

I began with 5 minutes warm up on the tready and then did 5 minutes of progressive running (starting at 8mph and moving up 0.5mph every minute until i was on 10mph). After that, i slowed right down to 4mph before my heart packed it's bags and left my chest for good and walked for 3 minutes. I followed it up with a further 3 minutes of progressive running.

Sat down for a few minutes.

Did 30 minutes on the stepper, was sweating like a fat one. Felt great.

I've come home, waited 30 minutes and had some chicken breast (with some green veg too, cause i wanted some satiety, i hope that's ok. I'll ask Lyle in a bit).

I'm about to go start my proper eating for the day. In 5 minutes precisely, in fact.

My hunger has all but disappeared too. Strange that. Usually i'm ravenous.

Righty, i'll tell y'all how i'm feeling later...um...later.

 

[Robboe]

Originally posted by w8lifter
Oh...and I forget...your morning cardio...is that on empty?

Yeah, when i refer to 'morning cardio' i refer to pre-breakfast cardio.

 

[w8lifter]

Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy

I've come home, waited 30 minutes and had some chicken breast (with some green veg too, cause i wanted some satiety, i hope that's ok. I'll ask Lyle in a bit).

Yeah...I'd like to know why just protein

 

[Robboe]

I imagine cause:

a) protein is the most thermogenic of the macros.

and:

b) Fat or carbs would stop the body burning it's own fat.

 

[w8lifter]

So why eat at all? Why not just w8 till your next scheduled meal?

 

[Robboe]

Muscle sparing i'd guess.


Anaerobic exercise does use glucose, remember.

 

[Robboe]

One thing i forgot to mention: I'm doing a little experiment. I do legs tomorrow morning, so i'd usually not do cardio today, but i'm carbing up tonight, so we'll see if i can get away with cardio the day before legs. I'll tell you if i have a good workout tomorrow. I hope so.

 

[Tank316]

Originally posted by Dr. Pain
Gr8 journal TCD


DP

ditto DP, i find it very interesting

 

[w8lifter]

Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy
Muscle sparing i'd guess.


Anaerobic exercise does use glucose, remember.

Yes...I'd still prefer to w8 till my scheduled meal though...although I do always schedule my workouts so that my next meal falls within an hr of the end of my w/o...not everyone can do that I suppose.

 

[Shmoo]

TCD I`m glad to see your doing this NHE journal. I have toyed with the NHE diet in the past. Right now I`m on a low carb diet and have been debating to try the NHE diet again, and your journal has motivated me to try it again. I am looking forward to reading this journal and the carb up days.

 

[Robboe]

So i emailed Lyle, and here is the email in it's entirity:

>Another question: why just protein after the cardio? I'm guessing it has
>something to do with keeping your body burning it's own bf stores and
>being muscle sparing, but what is your reasoning?

That's it. Just avoiding putting much energy back into the body (so it wll
continue burning mobilized fatty acids) but giving it some aminos to help
avoid muscle loss.

>Also, i did it today (i'll give you weekly updates of my activities on
>this style of training and won't fill your inbox everyday) and ate some chicken breast and i had some green
>veg (not much) for satiety. I was quite ravenous by the time so is that ok?

Sure.


Lyle

If you're wondering what i mean by giving him weekly updates, it's cause he's asked me to keep him updated on how i do with this style of cardio. If anyone else opts to try it, i'm sure he'd appreciate feedback from you also. We'll be the guinea pigs, if you will.

 

[Robboe]

Originally posted by Shmoo
TCD I`m glad to see your doing this NHE journal. I have toyed with the NHE diet in the past. Right now I`m on a low carb diet and have been debating to try the NHE diet again, and your journal has motivated me to try it again. I am looking forward to reading this journal and the carb up days.

Toyed with as in modified it a bit?

I've just come off a (personally) modified version of the diet with smaller carb loads coming directly post train and no pre-bedtime bi-weekly carb ups.

What kind of 'low carb' diet are you currently following? Guidelines?

 

[Robboe]

Thought I'd go a bit deeper into the reasoning of using L-Tyrosine. And also, why i eat cottage cheese (rich in tyrosine) before training. here's a fantastic quote from Tom Mattews:

Norepinephrine (aka noradrenaline) is the first output product of the adrenal medulla produced via the pathway tyrosine -> dopa -> dopamine -> norephinephrine. Ephinephrine (adrenaline) is made in the adrenal medulla directly norepinephrine (using SAMe). The ratio of production and output of norepinephrine to epinephrine is 20:80% Both norepinephrine and epinephrine are stored in the medulla after production.
Norepinephrine functions by causing constriction of essentially all the blood vessels in the body, increases activity of the heart, inhibition of the GI tract, dilation of the pupils, etc. Epinephrine causes almost the same effects except that is has a much stronger stimulating effect on the heart. However, epinephrine has a weaker effect on the vascular smooth muscle cells and does not raise blood pressure nearly as much as norepinephrine. In addition, epinephrine increases tissue metabolic rate much more so that norepinephrine and can double the metabolic output of the body. It also increases glycogenolysis in the liver and muscles the consequent releases of glucose into the blood to fuel the increased metabolic rate.

The full pathway, however, is this:

phenylalanine -> tyrosine -> dopa -> dopamine -> norepinephrine -> epinephrine.

So there is also potential from Phenylalanine supplementation or from foods rich in phenylalanine.

 

[Robboe]

Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy
4. So you don't get a shit load of cravings to binge on more carbs - usually initiated by falling insulin levels which then boost ghrelin levels and makes you crave food - carbs predominantly. I'm guessing PYY3-36 and MCH also interacts with this in some way or form via NPY and the meloncortin, but don't as me for specifics right now, i'm not entirely sure myself.

Here's a picture summing up a very basic picture. It doesn't explain everything, but it does make a few things clearer (well it did for me, and so i hope for you).

(Thanks to Leah for this )

 

[Robboe]

Well i re-sized it and it's came out hella small.

Anyone else with magic image-resizing fingers who can aid me?

Gimme an email addy and i'll send it to you to resize.

And why can i only attach 60k files?

 

[Shmoo]

Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy



Toyed with as in modified it a bit?

I've just come off a (personally) modified version of the diet with smaller carb loads coming directly post train and no pre-bedtime bi-weekly carb ups.

What kind of 'low carb' diet are you currently following? Guidelines?

I toyed or modified it by changing the carb days from 3-4 to 3-3 and 2-3 and the amount of carbs at each meal. I had a hockey related knee injury at the time and was unable to do any cardio, and now with my knee is close to100% I`m going to throw some cardio in this time and see how it goes.

The low carb diet I have been doing is just a modified version of the male cutting meal plan that DP posted here. It`s been going ok but I would like to try the NHE diet again with some added morning cardio 2-3 times a week.