what would u do if u got drafted

[BoneCrusher]

If I were drafted, I would go fight for my country.

For those who disagree, Would you have gone to fight in Kosovo for Clinton ?
Did you like that war any better ?

I did ...

 

[busyLivin]

I wonder what the consensus will be with a free Iraq. Was it worth it? Time may or may not tell.

I'm predicting Bush will go down in history as one of the greats...

I know.. go ahead and laugh!

 

[Pepper]

QuestionGuy is an asshat.

IAB has much patience.

 

[Randy]

Well let see, how many civilian casualties did we lose on the 9/11 attack? For what? sensless terrorism. I can't say how many civilian casualties there are in Iraq, but maybe they should have thought of this before launching a Terrorist plot against the US? Hell, how many civilians did Saddam himself kill? That crazy bastard was notorious for killing his own people. At least the US didn't launch a terrorist attack. We are there in an effort to eliminate the war on terror. Nobody wants civilian casualties.

hey miliman see i belive that there r even more deaths then 100,000 but they dont want us to know bout it...... come on they've been bombing iraq for more then a year now dont u think 100,000 is a relative number of casaulties

there can be more then 20000 deaths even in a day or less...............
but do u think the government would tell us if they killed that many


or for example: let's say the iraqis had a couple snipers in a hospital that caused a big hold up for the us troops.... do u think that they would just try to gun him down with their snipers or bomb the hole building


sorry kind of a long post

 

[NickB]

HOLY FUCK DUDE. Fuck.

Iraq did not attack the WTC on 9/11/01

 

[Randy]

I didn't say Iraq did attack the WTC.

 

[redspy]

Red,

Did you see how they came up to their number ? Ha ha ha
Why not just count bodies at the morgue ? Oh yeah, they could not get a number that high that way.
How many of these estiamted deaths are due to blowing themselves up too or by the terrorists trying to cause civil war ?

As our good friend Tommy Franks of US Central Command informs us, "We don't do body counts". Consequently you can track mainstream media reports using Iraqbodycount.net (check out the sources for each death report) or you can run a more indepth study. If you look at the methodology of the study it's fairly robust given the hostile environment and the difficulty of the subject matter. The report has been published in the Lancet and other respected publications and they wouldn't touch it if they though it was that questionable.

The real issue is that most people don't want to hear about civilian deaths because they don't care. Americans watch an emasulated war which highlights precision weapons and amazing technology. They don't see thousands of American soldiers with gruesome wounds and emtional scars. On American news you watch missiles taking off - On Al Jazeera the Middle East sees the carnage of the missiles landing and killing innocents. Sadly, many people in this country see the lives of others as not as important as American lives, hardly values of a fundamentalist Christian nation.

Nobody (on our side anyhow) wants to cause a bunch of civilian deaths.
But the liberal left, as well as the terrorists, know how to use the media to try to sway public opinion.
If they can show huge numbers of innocents dieing, it will look real bad. Our military tries as much as possible to avoid killing innocent people. But the rag heads hide in schools, hospitals, at homes and in mosques because they know that we will not attack these types of places. They could care less if innocent people die. Look at Russia. They purposely killed those kids.

Most of the US military are fine people, however, there is a core of people who shoot first and ask questions later. They are not held accountable to the Geneva convention or the ICC. Compare the rules of engagement of the US against the UK and you'll see a clear difference if you care to look.

Your signature picture is revealing. They hooked the people up to fake wires to make them think something was going to happen and tried to get them to divulge info on new plans of future terrorist attacks. I suppose this may be against the Geneva Convention, but I do not know. It is not torture.
If we are held up to the Geneva Convention, do you think they should be too?

ps I am still trying to find time to review your other post you sent me.

If you think your nation is above the Geneva Convention and the ICC you immediately lose your moral standing in the world. The abuses in Iraqi prison and other military camps where people are imprisoned without charge or legal defense are unconstitutional.

 

[milliman]

hey miliman see i belive that there r even more deaths then 100,000 but they dont want us to know bout it......

Why do you believe that ? Conspiracy theory again ? ? ?

They (terrorists) take every opportunity to show deaths that they can.
Remember the so called "wedding party" that we blew up. They found some of the bodies there had been planted there. They had been dead longer than the time from when we bombed it.

How could we then kill a whole bunch of people and cover it up ?
If it was just Bush reporting it then maybe, but the press does not love Bush and the terrorists, or Al Jezerra, however you spell that, would make sure those deaths (and greatly exagerated too) were published everywhere.

 

[redspy]

Why do you believe that ? Conspiracy theory again ? ? ?

They (terrorists) take every opportunity to show deaths that they can.
Remember the so called "wedding party" that we blew up. They found some of the bodies there had been planted there. They had been dead longer than the time from when we bombed it.

How could we then kill a whole bunch of people and cover it up ?
If it was just Bush reporting it then maybe, but the press does not love Bush and the terrorists, or Al Jezerra, however you spell that, would make sure those deaths (and greatly exagerated too) were published everywhere.

You've immediately dismissed the report as it doesn't align with your political view. Show me a more accurate source and I promise to carefully evaluate before (pre) judging.

 

[Randy]

I totally agree with Milliman,

The media always will blow things way out of proportion. Naturally those that don't want us there will make it look like we are murderers and what not. From what I seen the citizens were pretty happy we were there while Saddam was in power. Then after we brought Saddam to justice and dismantled the alkida terrorist network they wanted us out.

 

[King Silverback]

screw that...i say FUCK BUSH until he cant be fucked any more...fuck him

Well now, that a real intelligent response!!!

 

[redspy]

I totally agree with Milliman,

The media always will blow things way out of proportion. Naturally those that don't want us there will make it look like we are murderers and what not. From what I seen the citizens were pretty happy we were there while Saddam was in power. Then after we brought Saddam to justice and dismantled the alkida terrorist network they wanted us out.

Well, offer an alternative if you dismiss the report. Denial and blaming the media for everything doesn' cut it.

 

[Randy]

Well, offer an alternative if you dismiss the report. Denial and blaming the media for everything doesn' cut it.

If I had the facts and was responsible for accountability toward civilian casualties of war, then I would do just that. I'm just speaking freely here and giving my overal opinion of how media in general will greatly exaggerate and over inflate reality.

 

[redspy]

If I had the facts and was responsible for accountability toward civilian casualties of war, then I would do just that. I'm just speaking freely here and giving my overal opinion of how media in general will greatly exaggerate and over inflate reality.

When you read the methodology of the report we'll talk more.

 

[milliman]

As our good friend Tommy Franks of US Central Command informs us, "We don't do body counts". Consequently you can track mainstream media reports using Iraqbodycount.net

This looks more reasonable and believable than the 100K.

Sadly, many people in this country see the lives of others as not as important as American lives, hardly values of a fundamentalist Christian nation.

Come on Red, this has nothing to do with Christian values. War is War and people do die. The Christians are the ones who usually want to go and help their neighbor. Our Christian brothers in this country are always reaching to help others just like the good Samaritan.

Most of the US military are fine people, however, there is a core of people who shoot first and ask questions later. They are not held accountable to the Geneva convention or the ICC. Compare the rules of engagement of the US against the UK and you'll see a clear difference if you care to look. .

Correction, they are held accountable. The woman is the photo is being discipined as well as others.

I would like to see the rules of engagement. Where did you find them ?

Are the terrorists being held accountable ? Beheadings and all ?

If you think your nation is above the Geneva Convention and the ICC you immediately lose your moral standing in the world. The abuses in Iraqi prison and other military camps where people are imprisoned without charge or legal defense are unconstitutional.

All of the civilized countries have accepted the Geneva Convention and it does still apply to us. However, it was set up for a "normal war" where soldiers wear uniforms. When the was is over, the prisoners are returned to their country to live with the families.

Our war is against an enemy that does not wear a uniform. If released, these prisoners would fight us again. So how can you say that they should be released ? Has Osama given up and said troops go home. or now is a time to make peace ? No, he has said to fight the infidels. continue to fight and hurt them as bad as possible.

So how can you say they should be released?

Geneva Convention says when war is over. Is it over ? ? ?

 

[milliman]

Red,

Your signature has nothing to do with "Compassionate Conservatism".
That is bunk and you know it. You come up with some real cool stuff, can't you find a better signature than that, or at least change the title.

 

[Randy]

When you read the methodology of the report we'll talk more.

Will that help eliminate the casualties of war? I wish I could say that it would.

 

[BoneCrusher]

Now comes the hard part for me in being an American. I am in agreement with the need for oil, but not in agreement with how we are getting it. I long for a better energy program, but have no one to look for who is on track with that need. The idea of world domination is what the country's leadership is clearly intent upon, excluding those countries that either have nothing we want or are too well defended to attack , which is not my idea of America either. So now we have BushCo for another term with all the threats that they bring to the table and I am forced to ask who is going to be the voice of reason here?

 

[Randy]

Your in Texas BC, can I pickup a few barrels of oil from you?
With the gas prices the way they are, it would kill me to drive all the way over to Iraq to get my oil?

 

[redspy]

This looks more reasonable and believable than the 100K.?

The studies are based on very different data. Iraqbodycount.net only factors in reports from the main newswire services. The 100,000 number was a scientific study of various areas of Iraq and interviews with family members and uses extrapolation. Even the UK government is evaluating this report and hasn't immediately dismissed it like you and other.

Come on Red, this has nothing to do with Christian values. War is War and people do die. The Christians are the ones who usually want to go and help their neighbor. Our Christian brothers in this country are always reaching to help others just like the good Samaritan.

I admit that was a poke in the eye, but I still contend a lot of people don't care about the death of muslims.

Correction, they are held accountable. The woman is the photo is being discipined as well as others..?

That's not accountability, that's a government saving face. These troops were likely following unwritten rules. This scandal goes as high as the administration.

I would like to see the rules of engagement. Where did you find them ?

My cousin in serving for the UK, he'll be out of there soon I hope.

Are the terrorists being held accountable ? Beheadings and all ?

Just because terrorists are scumbags doesn't me we have to operate at their level. Rounding up and torturing innocent people really doesn't help our cause. Sure, it make you feel better about yourself but it's not the answer. We should be proud of our freedom and integrity.

All of the civilized countries have accepted the Geneva Convention and it does still apply to us. However, it was set up for a "normal war" where soldiers wear uniforms. When the was is over, the prisoners are returned to their country to live with the families.

Our war is against an enemy that does not wear a uniform. If released, these prisoners would fight us again. So how can you say that they should be released ? Has Osama given up and said troops go home. or now is a time to make peace ? No, he has said to fight the infidels. continue to fight and hurt them as bad as possible.

So how can you say they should be released?

Geneva Convention says when war is over. Is it over ? ? ?

Let me share a little secret with you: terrorism is nothing new. We've been fight terrorism in Europe for centuries and haven't had to sacrifice civil liberties. Just because America got hit doesn't mean we're in a new age, yes it was a huge attack but put in context death from terrorism is statistically insignificant. You're more likely to be killed in a car. My point is that although terrorism is a great threat put into perspective it's not that likely to kill you. The war on terror is unlikely to be won using weapons alone and ignoring the root causes. If you believe the the government we'll always be at war with terrorists, they will not stop and progressively you'll loose more civil liberties.

You can't let the government use the threat of terrorism to attack the constitution when it pleases. You're heading down a rocky road if you do.

 

[milliman]

You've immediately dismissed the report as it doesn't align with your political view. Show me a more accurate source and I promise to carefully evaluate before (pre) judging.

It's not that it does not fit my political view, it does not pass the smell test.
I will look at information on both sides and try to evaluate a persons bias too. Do they have something to gain by exagerating numbers or results. I am sure you would do the same.

If I cite the pentagon, you would dismiss it. What if I cited Rush Limbaugh, I bet you would throw it out too.

Here is a link that said that CNN has counted 3,240 civilian deaths in 5 weeks, but thought it was much higher than that. It does not say who killed the people, only that they died. CNN then gave the link you had to bodycount.com. But this is from "Antiwar.com". Does this name sound unbiased to you ? There number at least seems to be more believable.
But it does not distinguish between civilians and terrorists.

http://www.xpress.sfsu.edu/archives/news/000344.html

Who had been killing most of the people lately? 50 new cops ?
Car bombs. Hardly us.

 

[redspy]

Will that help eliminate the casualties of war? I wish I could say that it would.

1. My point was the data wasn't based on press reports for the 100,000 deaths study. So you can't blame the media.

2. The Iraq war was unnecessary and therefore the civilivian deaths were avoidable.

 

[redspy]

It's not that it does not fit my political view, it does not pass the smell test.
I will look at information on both sides and try to evaluate a persons bias too. Do they have something to gain by exagerating numbers or results. I am sure you would do the same.

If I cite the pentagon, you would dismiss it. What if I cited Rush Limbaugh, I bet you would throw it out too.

Here is a link that said that CNN has counted 3,240 civilian deaths in 5 weeks, but thought it was much higher than that. It does not say who killed the people, only that they died. CNN then gave the link you had to bodycount.com. But this is from "Antiwar.com". Does this name sound unbiased to you ? There number at least seems to be more believable.
But it does not distinguish between civilians and terrorists.

http://www.xpress.sfsu.edu/archives/news/000344.html

Who had been killing most of the people lately? 50 new cops ?
Car bombs. Hardly us.

Of course I'd dismiss Penagon figures because they've told us they don't do body counts. The two sources I've shown you aren't a bunch of left wing whacks, they're trying to report numbers that nobody else is bothering to.

 

[milliman]

The war on terror is unlikely to be won using weapons alone and ignoring the root causes. .

And what is the root cause ?

I can't help being an Infidel in their eyes and it ain't going to change. And I do think I have the right to live, regardless of what they think.

You can't let the government use the threat of terrorism to attack the constitution when it pleases. You're heading down a rocky road if you do.

True, we have to be real careful here.

My wife was a Prosecuting Attorney for the DA office. Our law basically punishes you after you commit a crime. But with Terrorism, you need to intercept these guys before they commit the crime.

You almost have to walk the tight rope of "thought crime" to catch them. I mean, you are guilty if you are thinking about it. Sounds like Big Brother in the book 1984.

 

[Randy]

QuestionGuy is an asshat.

IAB has much patience.

Asshat was exactly my words
But, Yes those were my similar thought exactly

 

[milliman]

Of course I'd dismiss Penagon figures because they've told us they don't do body counts. The two sources I've shown you aren't a bunch of left wing whacks, they're trying to report numbers that nobody else is bothering to.

Red, come on, the smell test . . . . Antiwar.com ? ? ?
Sounds biased to me just by the name. Although I will admit that these numbers could fit into the realm of possible. They pass the smell test.
But the Lancet numbers are rediculous.
Oh, and released right before the election . . . Coincidence ? ? ?

Here is a source who was there and talks about the good things happening.

http://www.thetruthaboutiraq.org/

Here is a letter from a marine who was in Iraq who tells it like it is.

http://www.military.com/NewContent/0,13190,Galloway_062304,00.html

 

[BoneCrusher]

What is acceptable as a solution to you regarding Iraq Milliman? I ask in honesty ... you and I have covered other topics well. Lets have at this one too. How do you see us as a nation moving forward from this point?

 

[milliman]

What is acceptable as a solution to you regarding Iraq Milliman? I ask in honesty ... you and I have covered other topics well. Lets have at this one too. How do you see us as a nation moving forward from this point?

Reminds me of a joke.

Do you know why there are no Arabs on Star Trek ?






Because it is the future !


No in all sincerity, that is not acceptable.

I see us helping them set up a government and they start electing there own leaders, as opposed to a theocracy run by the king or Aatollah. The leader needs to be responsive to the needs of the people.

After they can run it themselves, we need to get out of there.

Once Iraq is going, the neighboring kingdoms / countries will be hard pressed by the people to do the same thing.

I never had time to get back to you on the oil thing, but I still intend too.

But I have to head home tonight. I will check tomorrow since I enjoy discussing things with the BC man. (has cool avatars too)

And with that, he was off . . .

 

[Randy]

Milliman, that is my thoughts exactly.
I've heard many people ask why our troops are still there and why don't we get them out.
The whole purpose of us going there to begin with was to tear down their corrupt and evil government, remove Saddam, and try to restore order. Well we've done a large part of that, but their government is not yet assembled and running in smooth order. It sure wouldn't be wise to remove our troops prematurely after all our efforts, money, and lives that we have put on the line so far in our fight against terror. Once their government is in order, then we can get the hell out. Then like you say, we hope that it sets a good example to the other countries to help reinforce our interests in peace.

 

[seven11]

guys guys the iraqi people arent terrorist they r simply people that r defending them selfs and their homelad, dont belive the lies. 9/11 wasnt caused by iraqis, and this was they main reason the "war on terror" started, and was supposed to be fought in afganistan..... but some how bush found a way to connect those two different countries and cultures together to make u belive that those r the same people

there is one thing u dont know.... iraqis r siajt muslim and the jihad is suni and they sure dont like each other