Why do you believe in God ?

[Mordred]

Intellectually consistent...once again...go back and read only what I actually wrote.



Like where I said that I don't begrudge anyone their faith. You have faith...cool...I don't. I will explain why I don't if you like. You can explain why you do. Either way, both of us are almost certainly wrong in one way or another. I just feel that the reasoning behind why I believe what I believe is more sound...if I didn't, I wouldn't believe what I believe after all.

 

[Vieope]

Originally posted by Mordred
Who cares? Besides the rather dubious measure of intelligence that is the IQ...this is nothing more than an appeal to authority. It proves nothing.

I agree with the fact that standardized tests can´t measure one intelligence accurately but gifted individuals exist for sure . It is not just something to look better, actually gifted persons are primarily diagnosed to define their needs.

 

[Mordred]

I'm not saying that the guy isn't most likely very intelligent. But the fact that a very intelligent person believes something does not make it more true...that was the important point. Appeal to authority is a logical fallacy for a reason...

 

[Vieope]

So, everybody, back to the original reason for the thread.
Write your experiences that led you believe in God.

 

[myCATpowerlifts]

why do you have to have an experience?
what if you just do

 

[Vieope]

Originally posted by myCATpowerlifts
why do you have to have an experience?
what if you just do

Pussy, You can just do believe in God. That is ok.
The reason of the thread is about experiences, is just because it is more interesting than ppl saying "Because I do".

 

[myCATpowerlifts]

that may be but that is all most people have to offer...
and some people wont put it because
people like mordrid will call say it is foolish
and that it was just say coincidence or something like
that

 

[Stickboy]

This thread isn't going anywhere anymore. We are going around in circles.

This particular question will be answered in the end. Obviously, as Mordred mentioned, one side is going to be wrong.

See, as a believer, if I'm wrong then I'm in the same boat everyone else is in - simply dead.

If I'm right, then non-believers are going to wish they had believed.

Anyway, experiences:

First...I've always been a believer. It was solidified after a motorcycle accident I had when I was in college.

I should have been killed, but I came out intact. I was thrown more than 50 ft from the bike, I landed on my head, severely damaging the helmet. The bike was toast and I managed to come out with nothing more than a scratch on my right arm. Everyone that witnessed the accident thought I was dead, until I stood up and walked over to them. ( I was knocked out for a minute or so)

You can call it luck, I guess. I call it something else.

 

[myCATpowerlifts]

^
good

 

[Vieope]

nice

 

[Eggs]

Oh, and as to the world highest IQ... that honor goes to a woman. She had an IQ of in the area of 220 or so. I dont think she did much with her life... wrote a book on being smart or something

Mordred - Agreed, we each have our own beliefs, and thats something that I can respect.

To do any Christian Scientists justice, since you believe they cannot hold intellectually/philosophically consistant worldviews, here are a few links:

http://www.icr.org/

http://www.creationism.org/

and there are others... it seems that the earth sciences have more Christian scientists than the physics realm. Thats fine and dandy, I'm not too concerned about who answers the questions as long as they get answered

 

[BUSTINOUT]

Originally posted by myCATpowerlifts

Throughout all of your posts you keep saying that
"a true christian wouldnt cuss, or a true christian this and that"
BUT do you really have a right to criticize people if they are "true christians" because after the INDIRECTLY offensive posts that you made, you have no right to say this

I'm certainly not speaking for Eggs here, but I do believe what he was get at is, as Christains, we are called to "take the high road". There has to be something that distinguishes us, and that something is how we handle opposition. By no means am I judging you CAT, Lord knows I have my shortcomings. But unfortunately, one uncontrollable moment erases everything good we've done up to that point in the eyes of many.

 

[Mordred]

Eggs...I've never said that there are not plenty of scientists who are Christians. I've never said there aren't plenty of scientists who are theists. There are plenty of excellent scientists who happen to believe in a god of some form. The people at the ICR, and creationists in general, are not them. That is to say that they are obviously Christians...but what they are doing is most definately not good science in any stretch of the imagination.

I still contend that in order to be a scientist and a theist you must make a special exception in the case of the god question by injecting the concept of faith. They cannot apply faith as they do in that instance to the rest of their lives, it goes against the very nature of the scientific method.

I would also like to point out to Stickyboy that I never said one side is wrong...I said BOTH sides are almost certainly wrong. And that I have never called anyone in this thread foolish or denigrated anyone as myCATpowerlifts insinuated my position to be. I would never call it foolish, as that is a subjective, negative label. I will call it irrational because it is by definition irrational...if you take that label as negative, then that is a value judgement you have made. It doesn't have to be taken as such.

 

[Rissole]

Originally posted by Stickboy
This thread isn't going anywhere anymore. We are going around in circles.

This is the reason i never post in these sort threads. You can tap on your keyboard till your fingers fall off but it is only God that saves. No debate, no "hey this happened to me so God must be real"(nb conv. with God and Laz in da bible), no coersing, squat will do it unless the Holy Spirit will cause the "scales" to fall form peoples eyes. This is also a 2 way thing cause someone has to be "looking" for God first.
I could list 100's of experiances of where God has touched my life undeniably (my fillings have even changed color on one occasion) it changed me for sure but it dont do anything for anyone else.

 

[Eggs]

Originally posted by Mordred
The people at the ICR, and creationists in general, are not them. That is to say that they are obviously Christians...but what they are doing is most definately not good science in any stretch of the imagination.

We all have matters of opinion, thats fine If you asked them, they would fully believe what they are doing is good science. In truth, we all have biases that affect our behavior, and no one is 100% objective. That goes for all scientists in all fields Its part of being human.

I still contend that in order to be a scientist and a theist you must make a special exception in the case of the god question by injecting the concept of faith. They cannot apply faith as they do in that instance to the rest of their lives, it goes against the very nature of the scientific method.

And a Scientist that is a christian would disagree. They might not even see it as a matter of faith, but be unable to justify the existence of the universe without some sort of supernatural cause. As said before, everybody is going to have their own opinion on it. As far as logic goes, both side can present arguments until they are blue in the face and neither of them will be able to gather together anything similar to proof. Thus for either side to rule out the possibility of the other being correct is inferior logic. I know, you never said that there wasnt a God, you said you didnt believe in one. Thats fine and dandy, I dont particularilly care to try to convince you. My original point that I took contention with is that I misread what you wrote and thought you stated that there is no God, which is very much different than you do not believe in a God.

Anyhow, it was nice talking to you. Anything big going on in the physics community these days?

 

[Mordred]

Originally posted by Eggs As far as logic goes, both side can present arguments until they are blue in the face and neither of them will be able to gather together anything similar to proof. Thus for either side to rule out the possibility of the other being correct is inferior logic.

Logic, the role of logic, and the burden of proof is precisely what this is all about for me...so I will make a comment or two here. As far as believing in a god goes, it is up to those making the claim to provide sufficient evidence for that claim. If they cannot, then that claim cannot be believed based on rational argument alone. The burden of proof is always on those making the claim.

As for logic, it is not an oracle for absolute truth. It is a tool that can be used to determine which arguments are superior (more likely to be correct). All it can be used for is to determine what is the best position at any given time based upon known information.

That's the biggest thing that I feel I need to get across to those who do have faith. I freely admit that my current position is almost certainly in error in one way or another. Anyone who claims to know anything for certain is demonstrating a high level of arrogance in my opinion. All I can do is make sure that my current position on any subject is the best possible position available to me at the time...and I believe I am doing that.

"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." -- Frank Herbert

Anyhow, it was nice talking to you. Anything big going on in the physics community these days?

Lots of great stuff in the last few years. Measuring the speed of gravity propagation (another confirmation of a prediction of general relativity) and the subsequent fights over whether or not it was valid...lots of work on superstrings, m-theory, etc. (these would be your unified field theories and grand unified theories)...and a lot of really cool stuff going on with quantum computers (which was my field of interest before I began an attempt to regain my sanity).

It was nice talking with you as well...I enjoy these conversations when they remain civil.

 

[Vieope]

What Mordred is trying to explain in simple words is this:

Imagine if you have a closed black box.

You know there is a fruit inside.

You have no other clue to determine what fruit it has.

Why would you pick apple ?

 

[Eggs]

Haha, thats a good description of what we are dealing with Vieope.

In this case I'd have to choose a guava though Seriously though, because of each persons perspective they will choose something different. Then one day when they can open the box they'll either say "Yeay, I was right", or "Oh crap, got it wrong."

I understood what he was saying all along, rather my point was just simply that one should not rule out options until they are for certain. Of course Mordred is right, to prove either case isnt so easy, and generally validity a matter of scale.

M - Taking a sabatical?

 

[Mordred]

It's worse than that though...because until you actually open the box and observe the fruit inside it is actually both fruit and not fruit at the same time.

Not exactly taking a sabatical...I stopped working on my Ph.D. to be a tennis pro for a while. It just wasn't fun anymore.

 

[Vieope]

I never heard of a PHD being funny.
Mordred tell me something... if I don´t graduate, can I try a doctorate or even higher or maybe get a graduate degree without going to university.? I heard that it is possible in America.

Eggs, good morning

 

[Eggs]

Haha, I want to be on that same program Vieope!

Tennis Pro... Thats the line of work I need to be in. At a tropical resort

 

[Mordred]

Not sure exactly what you meant there Vieope...but every accredited grad school that I know of would require a bachelor's degree or some sort of equivalent in order for you to be admitted.

 

[Vieope]

Originally posted by Eggs
Haha, I want to be on that same program Vieope!

Yeah

Originally posted by Mordred
Not sure exactly what you meant there Vieope...but every accredited grad school that I know of would require a bachelor's degree or some sort of equivalent in order for you to be admitted.

I heard somewhere that if you can prove that you have the knowledge it is possible to start a doctoral degree or get a "equivalent" graduate degree.
Something like home schooling.
I just prefer to learn by myself, 5 years (gradutate) plus 2 years (doctorate) is too much wasted time.

 

[Mordred]

I think that mostly has to do with recognizing equivalent degrees gained in foreign countries. I don't think you can come in without any kind of degree and do something like that.

 

[Vieope]

Damm it

 

[camarosuper6]

You know, sometimes I wonder why I believe what I believe. It is a very hard question for me to answer. I know I grew up in a strong Christian home, and that is the main reason I have the faith I have now. Its not much of an argument, logically, I know, but having a personal relationship with Christ is something I myself know to be real. Many people will say its just my subconcious or spill some other terms about my pysche and so forth. I dont really have any kind of rebuttal to them, because my religion (like most religions) is based on faith.

IMO, true faith is completely blind, otherwise it wouldnt "truly" be faith would it? It baffles me to think that some young man, who grew up in Iraq, knowing nothing but the Islamic faith, will be held accountable forever (according to the bible) for not believing in Christ. No, it does not seem fair, because this is all he knew. I realize these things. But I also have to have faith that there is a God that is much more intelligent and doesnt have the limitation of my mortal understanding to know what hes doing.

I realize this is a very poor rational speaking logically or philisophically, but it is my religion. I am proud to be a Christian. I do not down anyone else or their religion, and do not go around acting like everyone is going to hell but me. If someone is curious about God, I would be more than happy to talk. But usually, I let my actions do the talking. People may not agree with me, may laugh at me, may ridicule me for my lack of "evidence" supporting this, that, and what not. But my faith is what makes me who I am. God gave man the choice to make his own decisions, and if you choose not to believe, that is your business, and I respect that because Christians are NOT here to judge, they are here to save people.

Let God be the judge. Ive got enough problems and sins in my life that God has been merciful towards me. I

Heres a quote that speaks revelations about our Christian society

"The main cause of atheism in the world today is Christians, who say they serve God with their mouths, and go out and deny him by their lifestyle."

JUST MY 2 cents! Whats up vieope, CAT and EGGS!

 

[Vieope]

Everything is ok And with you ?
This thread got really big, I think that ppl really care about God, huh ?

 

[Eggs]

Whats up Camaro!

 

[myCATpowerlifts]

Originally posted by Vieope
What Mordred is trying to explain in simple words is this:

Imagine if you have a closed black box.

You know there is a fruit inside.

You have no other clue to determine what fruit it has.

Why would you pick apple ?

Or maybe it is a genetically altered fruit!
with all of the prerequisites to be an apple, an orange, and every other fruit on the planet?

get what im saying?

 

[myCATpowerlifts]

hey camaro

that was a very good post
thanks for saying hi to me
even tho i was the immature (well MOST immature) one here earlier