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Workouts based on rep speed
- Thread starter SuperFlex
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Slow reps is what makes you grow (more than a normal or fast tempo). Fast reps should be done if your a fighter and wanna be explosive.
not exactly. slow concentric reps are probably the worst thing you can do, save for certian rehabilitaion instances.
For bodybuilding purposes, I find a slow eccentric part and a fast concentric part optimal.
Sounds pretty much like a normal rep. They work just dandy... I'm looking to be beast fast/explosive however.
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why would you train anyother way?
I try and get after every rep. the only time i focus on speed is:
a) scapular stabilizer work
b) functional isometrics
other then that, I don't actively slow down my eccentrics. I lower them under control as fast as I can and then come back.
I'm with you P. Time to get on it... I decided to kick it in today and loved it. Felt strong like bull... I had planned to ease back in to training for awhile, but let's get er done.
Even though this is how I prefer to train I wanted to learn from others experiences. I've never done the slow rep side of things. I had just finished reading an article in Flex and decided to ask you guys about it.
I follow a westside routine, and it's a necessity to do so twice a week. Two speed days (Dynamic Effort), two power days (Max Effort).
All weight lifting calls on fast twitch muscle fibers....or typeII fibers....fast and slow twitch don't refer to speeds....it's effort....or intensity.
I sometimes do dynamic effort work where I am working on increasing power output. Generally though, I do controlled eccentrics and attempt to use compensatory acceleration on the concentric. I do implement static holds sometimes to improve starting strength or work on a weak point in a lift, e.g., pausing in the hole during a squat.
that is still up for debate.
explosive lifting has been showen to recruit higher threshold motor units because the velocity is so fast.
Then wouldn't this type of training mean increased strength? Because of a greater overall motor unit recruitment??
kind of the whole point behind high velocity power training. think throwing a med. ball which is 10% of your BW, or speed bench press, or power cleans, or snatch pulls....
I've read some believe that different fiber types may not necessarily change, but take on characteristics of other fibers...so after training this way do you think that higher threshold motor units take on characteristics of type II fibers?
I always try for a rapid concentric phase, regardless of intensity...does it matter how quickly the bar is actually moving??
Hope you don't mind the conversation....I'm reading/studying some of this stuff, and it just REALLY clicks when someone else talks about it!
bar velocity is important when you are doing speed work. If it is two slow, you loose the power effect, right....power= force x velocity or power = work/time
you want to have the most power output you can in the shortest amount of time.
There are two schools of belief:
1) the speed of the bar is the most important thing.
and
2) the intent of speed is the most important thing. Meaning that you should always be thinking about accelerating the bar as quickly as possible, even at high intensity, max attempts, where the bar IS moving slow....think fast!
My theory:
both of them are probably right. you need both ends of the spectrum to work for you.
Not having taken part in studies or having read extensive reports about it, I would disagree. I feel you perform according to have you practice. If you're wanting quickness, speed, and explosiveness then train that way. If you want to rehab, like P-funk said, train more controlled, slower, and as carefully as possible. Even when training for explosiveness you should train correctly of course...
If I remember correctly(it's been awhile), there are three types of motor units. A motor unit consist of a certain grouping of muscle fibers to perform a given task/movement. Most only talk about fast and slow twitch motor units, but I believe there is a third which consists of a combination of the two. It's called the intermediate muscle fiber. I don't feel the third motor unit is just a greater mix of fast and slow twitch fibers. Rather a combo which acts as a third motor unit. As I'm sure you know, the body consist of different groupings of these motor units. For example along the spine are mainly slow twitch muscle fibers. This is because they tend to be stronger and fatigue less. Where explosiveness is needed most, such as in the limbs, there are more fast twitch muscle fibers.
With that said, it's possible that different muscle groups may best benefit from a mixture of training principles. One technique may not be the ideal way to train for every exercise... There are certainly some exercises where a steady rep is my main focus, whether I'm going for power or not. Yet on most training movements, imo, explosive training is superior...
Alright check it out...P knows more about this than I do...
There are 2 main fiber types...typeI (slow twitch) and typeII(fast twitch) If I understand it correctly, typeI fibers are weaker but are much more resistant to fatigue...They are used for endurance sports, or low intensity work...ex. Picking up a phone as opposed to curling a heavy dumbell.
Then you have your typeII fibers(a) and (b) Your typeII fibers are larger, stronger fibers that are called into action at higher levels of intensity, (curling that heavy dumbell) and these fibers are very susceptible to fatigue, especially the typeIIb fibers...
So when you are lifting heavy weights, or hell, even weights at a moderate intensity...you are using your typeII fibers to execute the lift. Now what P is saying is that when you lift the bar with great velocity you may also use higher threshold motor units (slow twitch or typeI fibers) to some degree...
"fast" and "slow" can be misleading terms. When you lift weights...you are primarily using typeII fibers. Regardless of how you train.
yes. type I= slow twitch, low threshold motor units. type II= fast twitch; high threshold motor units.
yes. I believe there are actually 7 classifications of muscle fibers but they are only used in lab analysis. Basically, we use type IIa and type IIb (which sometimes is refered to as type IIx).
wrong, after intensities of 80% and higher, you are recruiting ALL motor units effectively. Both type I and type II. You recruit everything. They fire in order as needed.
wrong again. you can most defenitly train with light weight and make it more "aerobic" and work on type I muscle fiber recruitment.
Now, what I was saying was that studies have showen that by taking a weight that is light enough to move quickly (say 60% of 1RM) that your body can skip over the recruitment of the type I fibers and tap right into the type IIb fibers (higher threshold motor units) in an effort to apply maximal power effectively. The Rate of Force Development (RDF) happens so quickly that your body responds by doing "what it has to do" to move at that speed.
here is what I was looking for:
Exerc Sport Sci Rev. 1987;15:95-151. Links
Influence of exercise and training on motor unit activation.
* Sale DG.
Human MUs vary considerably in twitch force, contractile speed, axonal conduction velocity, fatigue resistance, recruitment thresholds, firing rates, and firing patterns. These functional properties, together with the corresponding morphological characteristics such as soma size, axon diameter, and muscle fiber size, are interrelated. The smallest (soma size, axon diameter, muscle fiber size) MUs have the smallest twitch force, the slowest contraction speed, the slowest conduction velocity, the greatest resistance to fatigue, the lowest recruitment thresholds, and the lowest minimum and maximum firing rates. The converse applies to the largest MUs. Between the extremes are MUs with intermediate characteristics. MUs are generally recruited in order of size in voluntary contraction of increasing force or effort. Thus, units are recruited in order of increasing twitch force and contractile speed and decreasing resistance to fatigue. In some muscles MU recruitment occurs throughout the range of contraction force, whereas in other muscles most if not all MUs are recruited by about 50% of maximum contraction force. The latter pattern is characteristic of small muscles that perform precise movements. The recruitment order of MUs according to size is based on the inverse relation between susceptibility to discharge and motoneuron size. Thus, for evenly distributed and increasing excitatory synaptic input to a pool of motoneurons, smaller motoneurons will begin to fire before larger motoneurons. This arrangement ensures, for example, that the small, fatigue-resistant MUs will be preferentially activated in prolonged, low-intensity exercise, to which these units are most suited. In brief, intense exercise, the associated greater excitatory input will also recruit the large MUs, taking advantage of their greater strength and contractile speed. A frequent question is whether rapid, ballistic or explosive contractions and movements are associated with selective or preferential recruitment of large, fast twitch MUs. There is evidence of synaptic input systems that preferentially excite large, fast twitch MUs and inhibit small twitch MUs; however, the majority of evidence from human experiments indicates that the recruitment order is not reversed in ballistic contractions. For technical reasons, most studies have used isometric contractions, but recently successful recordings of single MUs have been made during locomotion. Future research must develop a successful recording arrangement for the study of recruitment and discharge properties of single MUs in large proximal muscles during activities such as kicking, jumping, and throwing.(ABSTRACT TRUNCATED AT 400 WORDS)
PMID: 3297731 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Exerc Sport Sci Rev. 1987;15:95-151. Links
Influence of exercise and training on motor unit activation.
* Sale DG.
Human MUs vary considerably in twitch force, contractile speed, axonal conduction velocity, fatigue resistance, recruitment thresholds, firing rates, and firing patterns. These functional properties, together with the corresponding morphological characteristics such as soma size, axon diameter, and muscle fiber size, are interrelated. The smallest (soma size, axon diameter, muscle fiber size) MUs have the smallest twitch force, the slowest contraction speed, the slowest conduction velocity, the greatest resistance to fatigue, the lowest recruitment thresholds, and the lowest minimum and maximum firing rates. The converse applies to the largest MUs. Between the extremes are MUs with intermediate characteristics. MUs are generally recruited in order of size in voluntary contraction of increasing force or effort. Thus, units are recruited in order of increasing twitch force and contractile speed and decreasing resistance to fatigue. In some muscles MU recruitment occurs throughout the range of contraction force, whereas in other muscles most if not all MUs are recruited by about 50% of maximum contraction force. The latter pattern is characteristic of small muscles that perform precise movements. The recruitment order of MUs according to size is based on the inverse relation between susceptibility to discharge and motoneuron size. Thus, for evenly distributed and increasing excitatory synaptic input to a pool of motoneurons, smaller motoneurons will begin to fire before larger motoneurons. This arrangement ensures, for example, that the small, fatigue-resistant MUs will be preferentially activated in prolonged, low-intensity exercise, to which these units are most suited. In brief, intense exercise, the associated greater excitatory input will also recruit the large MUs, taking advantage of their greater strength and contractile speed. A frequent question is whether rapid, ballistic or explosive contractions and movements are associated with selective or preferential recruitment of large, fast twitch MUs. There is evidence of synaptic input systems that preferentially excite large, fast twitch MUs and inhibit small twitch MUs; however, the majority of evidence from human experiments indicates that the recruitment order is not reversed in ballistic contractions. For technical reasons, most studies have used isometric contractions, but recently successful recordings of single MUs have been made during locomotion. Future research must develop a successful recording arrangement for the study of recruitment and discharge properties of single MUs in large proximal muscles during activities such as kicking, jumping, and throwing.(ABSTRACT TRUNCATED AT 400 WORDS)
PMID: 3297731 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Here is another one for you on what I was talking about in reference to velocity and training specificity:
1: Sports Med. 1993 Jun;15(6):374-88. Links
Velocity specificity of resistance training.
* Behm DG,
* Sale DG.
Department of Physical Education, McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada.
Velocity specificity of resistance training has demonstrated that the greatest strength gains occur at or near the training velocity. There is also evidence that the intent to make a high speed contraction may be the most crucial factor in velocity specificity. The mechanisms underlying the velocity-specific training effect may reside in both neural and muscular components. Muscular adaptations such as hypertrophy may inhibit high velocity strength adaptations due to changes in muscle architecture. However, some studies have reported velocity-specific contractile property adaptations suggesting changes in muscle kinetics. There is evidence to suggest velocity-specific electromyographic (EMG) adaptations with explosive jump training. Other researchers have hypothesised neural adaptations because of a lack of electrically evoked changes in relation to significant voluntary improvements. These neural adaptations may include the selective activation of motor units and/or muscles, especially with high velocity alternating contractions. Although the incidence of motor unit synchronisation increases with training, its contribution to velocity-specific strength gains is unclear. However, increased synchronisation may occur more frequently with the premovement silent period before ballistic contractions. The preprogrammed neural circuitry of ballistic contractions suggests that high velocity training adaptations may involve significant neural adaptations. The unique firing frequency associated with ballistic contractions would suggest possible adaptations in the frequency of motor unit discharge. Although co-contraction of antagonists increases with training and high velocity movement, its contribution is probably related more to joint protection than the velocity-specific training effect.
PMID: 8341872 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
1: Sports Med. 1993 Jun;15(6):374-88. Links
Velocity specificity of resistance training.
* Behm DG,
* Sale DG.
Department of Physical Education, McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada.
Velocity specificity of resistance training has demonstrated that the greatest strength gains occur at or near the training velocity. There is also evidence that the intent to make a high speed contraction may be the most crucial factor in velocity specificity. The mechanisms underlying the velocity-specific training effect may reside in both neural and muscular components. Muscular adaptations such as hypertrophy may inhibit high velocity strength adaptations due to changes in muscle architecture. However, some studies have reported velocity-specific contractile property adaptations suggesting changes in muscle kinetics. There is evidence to suggest velocity-specific electromyographic (EMG) adaptations with explosive jump training. Other researchers have hypothesised neural adaptations because of a lack of electrically evoked changes in relation to significant voluntary improvements. These neural adaptations may include the selective activation of motor units and/or muscles, especially with high velocity alternating contractions. Although the incidence of motor unit synchronisation increases with training, its contribution to velocity-specific strength gains is unclear. However, increased synchronisation may occur more frequently with the premovement silent period before ballistic contractions. The preprogrammed neural circuitry of ballistic contractions suggests that high velocity training adaptations may involve significant neural adaptations. The unique firing frequency associated with ballistic contractions would suggest possible adaptations in the frequency of motor unit discharge. Although co-contraction of antagonists increases with training and high velocity movement, its contribution is probably related more to joint protection than the velocity-specific training effect.
PMID: 8341872 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
another for you:
1: Can J Appl Physiol. 1994 Dec;19(4):363-78. Links
Ballistic movement: muscle activation and neuromuscular adaptation.
* Zehr EP,
* Sale DG.
Department of Kinesiology, McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario.
Movements that are performed with maximal velocity and acceleration can be considered ballistic actions. Ballistic actions are characterized by high firing rates, brief contraction times, and high rates of force development. A characteristic triphasic agonist/antagonist/agonist electromyographic (EMG) burst pattern occurs during ballistic movement, wherein the amount and intensity of antagonist coactivation is variable. In conditions of low-grade tonic muscular activity, a premovement EMG depression (PMD; or silent period, PMS) can occur in agonist muscles prior to ballistic contraction. The agonist PMD period may serve to potentiate the force and velocity of the following contraction. A selective activation of fast twitch motor units may occur in ballistic contractions under certain movement conditions. Finally, high-velocity ballistic training induces specific neuromuscular adaptations that occur as a function of the underlying neurophysiological mechanisms that subserve ballistic movement.
PMID: 7849654 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
1: Can J Appl Physiol. 1994 Dec;19(4):363-78. Links
Ballistic movement: muscle activation and neuromuscular adaptation.
* Zehr EP,
* Sale DG.
Department of Kinesiology, McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario.
Movements that are performed with maximal velocity and acceleration can be considered ballistic actions. Ballistic actions are characterized by high firing rates, brief contraction times, and high rates of force development. A characteristic triphasic agonist/antagonist/agonist electromyographic (EMG) burst pattern occurs during ballistic movement, wherein the amount and intensity of antagonist coactivation is variable. In conditions of low-grade tonic muscular activity, a premovement EMG depression (PMD; or silent period, PMS) can occur in agonist muscles prior to ballistic contraction. The agonist PMD period may serve to potentiate the force and velocity of the following contraction. A selective activation of fast twitch motor units may occur in ballistic contractions under certain movement conditions. Finally, high-velocity ballistic training induces specific neuromuscular adaptations that occur as a function of the underlying neurophysiological mechanisms that subserve ballistic movement.
PMID: 7849654 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Ah, thx for explaining things better. I was a little sketchy on some things, that's why I leave the technical stuff to you guys heh....
"wrong again. you can most defenitly train with light weight and make it more "aerobic" and work on type I muscle fiber recruitment."
This statement I have a question about....ur description of "light" is kinda vague....how light are we talkin?? 15 reps+?? At a slower speed?/
well....it could be light as in 15 reps....I mean, that is still going to recruit some type IIa fibers. It is tough to gauge. In general, you can go by time though.....for example, if you did a non-stop circuit of 6 exercse, with 20 reps per exercise, and it took you 90-120sec to do....then that would be more aerobic in nature. Very slow reps (like super slow training) could also achieve this same type of effect. But, in general it is hard to do anything and say...."it is just type I. Or just typeII." You are always going to be using a little bit of everything. The work might favor a certain fiber type but your body will have periods were it will need to work harder etc....think, running a marathon....jogging slow (type I is favored), then you get to the hill. the intensity will favor type II greater. What about the sprint at the end? Defenitly type II. What about the lactic acid that is building up, even during the slower phases? You are always getting a little bit of everything. It is hard to just say "it is only this or that." ya know? Unless you are sleeping...lol, then I am pretty sure you aren't doing jack shit.
Good info.
According to what I read slow twitch muscle fibers were best for strength/endurance and fast twitch for speed/contraction. It seemed a little contradictary to me, but that's what it said... Fast twitch muscle fibers having more strength makes sense though.
It would be kind of cool to know what your own body consisted of.
According to what I read slow twitch muscle fibers were best for strength/endurance and fast twitch for speed/contraction. It seemed a little contradictary to me, but that's what it said... Fast twitch muscle fibers having more strength makes sense though.
It would be kind of cool to know what your own body consisted of.
type IIa fibers are best for strength endurance type of events.
You can get a muscle biopsy done to see what ratio of type I:type II fibers you have.
I'll just guess...
What I read must be outdated or just plan incorrect. Thanks for clearing it up man.