olympic lifting is a bust???

[swordfish]

i like doing some olympic lifts but apparently louie simmons thinks different. here is a quote in one of his squatting articles. agree or disagree?




To all strength coaches: the next time you have your athletes do Olympic squats, ask yourself why. The joint angles are not advantageous for the stretch reflex. If a lineman were to use that position on the field, he would easily be pushed backward. The Olympic lifts require flexibility. There are many drills better suited to increase flexibility. Everyone thinks the Olympic lifts are so quick. While your cleans at 60% look fast, so do our box squats at 60%. The athlete who can power clean 400 uses 240(60%). The lifter who can squat 800 uses 480 (60%). Who do you really think would be faster and stronger? Compared to a powerlifter, an Olympic lifter can???t squat with the Sunday paper. A kid that can hang clean 400 would look frail to an 800 squatter. And don???t forget, in Olympic lifting, as the bar is raising, the lifter is lowering himself, making it appear that they are moving the bar at great speed. Olympic lifting is the biggest bust in the United States. We have not placed a single lifter on the "A" list, yet strength coaches still advocate the Olympic lifts.

 

[P-funk]

i like doing some olympic lifts but apparently louie simmons thinks different. here is a quote in one of his squatting articles. agree or disagree?




To all strength coaches: the next time you have your athletes do Olympic squats, ask yourself why. The joint angles are not advantageous for the stretch reflex. If a lineman were to use that position on the field, he would easily be pushed backward. The Olympic lifts require flexibility. There are many drills better suited to increase flexibility. Everyone thinks the Olympic lifts are so quick. While your cleans at 60% look fast, so do our box squats at 60%. The athlete who can power clean 400 uses 240(60%). The lifter who can squat 800 uses 480 (60%). Who do you really think would be faster and stronger? Compared to a powerlifter, an Olympic lifter can???t squat with the Sunday paper. A kid that can hang clean 400 would look frail to an 800 squatter. And don???t forget, in Olympic lifting, as the bar is raising, the lifter is lowering himself, making it appear that they are moving the bar at great speed. Olympic lifting is the biggest bust in the United States. We have not placed a single lifter on the "A" list, yet strength coaches still advocate the Olympic lifts.

that is complete bull shit. Olympic lifters can squat more weight than most power lifters since powerlifters have to squat only to parallel and with their bull shit suits on. Ask them to squat raw and ass to the floor and see who is stronger. Also, do a search for "specficity and training" on a post I put up all these test of strength and power between elite olympic lifters, elite powerlifiters and bodybuilders. It should come as no surprise that the olympic lifters had better verticals, stronger squats (since they had to squat raw), and quicker running times and power outputs.

 

[swordfish]

yea i agree with you totally, apparently, louie simmons is dumber than shit when it comes to olympic lifting. Id have to say to him, put one of you westside boys up against shane hammond in a squat comp, ASS TO GRASS AND RAW and see who wins. louie simmons trains guys who squat with a quadrupple ply, double denim, sextuple nylon, 1"8 inch seamed inzer or whatever the hell they call those cheat suits, and also they squat about 3 inches down and up. ill take a full squat over a louie simmons dumbass squat.

 

[CowPimp]

I disagree as well. I think Mr. Simmons is simply biased because his life is powerlifting.

Don't tell me that Dimas isn't lightning fast. I would like to see anyone from Westside Barbell drop under some of the pulls that he gets up there.

Don't tell me Reza Zadeh isn't strong. I would like to see anyone from Westside Barbell front squat 700 pounds for a couple of reps, ass to the floor, without a squat suit, and with relative ease.

 

[P-funk]

yea i agree with you totally, apparently, louie simmons is dumber than shit when it comes to olympic lifting. Id have to say to him, put one of you westside boys up against shane hammond in a squat comp, ASS TO GRASS AND RAW and see who wins. louie simmons trains guys who squat with a quadrupple ply, double denim, sextuple nylon, 1"8 inch seamed inzer or whatever the hell they call those cheat suits, and also they squat about 3 inches down and up. ill take a full squat over a louie simmons dumbass squat.

Louie Simmons is a super smart guy and did wonders for the world of powerlifing and strength training in general. But, when he talks about olympic lifting he is a little off base with his statments.

I was reading some olmypic lifting coaches talking about louie's article on how to train an olympic lifter. They really ripped him a new one. The started by saying that he is off base by saying that to get better at the santch or clean and jerk you have to not snatch or clean and jerk. you need to break the lifts up and work on your sticking point..etc...They said...this isn't a bench press! These lifts are way to technical and the only way to get better is repetition and drive that technique. Pulling from blocks makes you better at pulling from blocks but it doesn't make you better from the floor for the main reason that, it isn't a sticking point (in the hang position), it is the hard part of getting from the first pull, into the scoop and then to the second pull to make a good lift. The problem isn't that the guys are weaker in the second pull, it is that they are having a problem getting into it and that can only be fixed by doing cleans or snatches. they then got nasty and said shit like...."louie trains powerlifters in a dirty lifting federation that doesn't drug test and allows lifters to get away with high squats or non-pause bench presses just because they are going for a big lift. Also, it is nothing more then smoke and mirrors with all their suits, shirts and wraps. Why is it that his training priciples work so well for the bench press and the squat but their deadlifts don't progress as rapidly? It is because the gear they are using for those two lifts gets better. there is no real gear (yet) to use to increase your deadlift. So, if louie's training methods so perfect how come his deadlifters fail to progress?" OUCH!

 

[P-funk]

Here is the study....Louie Can eat it.

the study refers to olympic weightlifters as "weightlifters" (as they are reffered to in most countries or in athletics).

go o-lifting!

 

[CowPimp]

Wow, those are some harsh words. I think they went a little overboard and just simply made some revenge statement. I can attest to the fact that the conjugate periodization protocol that Simmons helped develop did wonders for my deadlift. It put on 75 pounds or so to my deadlift in 4 months.

 

[P-funk]

Wow, those are some harsh words. I think they went a little overboard and just simply made some revenge statement. I can attest to the fact that the conjugate periodization protocol that Simmons helped develop did wonders for my deadlift. It put on 75 pounds or so to my deadlift in 4 months.

louie simmons stole the conjugate periodization protocol from the russian weightlifters.

he didn't invent it.

 

[swordfish]

well lets see, the best powerlifters in the world are gary frank, scott mendelson, brent mikesell, ed coan( one of the best years ago), gene rychlak, andy bolton,and ryan kennelly . do i see any of them trained by louie simmons, NOPE.

 

[Squaggleboggin]

It's a little sad that he thought the actual purpose of weightlifting was to increase flexibility. Sure, that's one of the things necessary in a good weightlifter, but no one would probably do it for the sole purpose of increased flexibility.

I'm glad you put a link up to that thread. That's the one that came to mind immediately while I was reading that article. That's when I first learned what a weightlifter really was (tear).

And yeah, that video of Raza Zadeh doing an ATG front squat with 700+ twice without breaking a sweat... was awesome...

 

[Deity Goddess]

well lets see, the best powerlifters in the world are gary frank, scott mendelson, brent mikesell, ed coan( one of the best years ago), gene rychlak, andy bolton,and ryan kennelly . do i see any of them trained by louie simmons, NOPE.

You forgot to add Jeff Lewis, Becca Swanson, and Jill Mills to that list.

 

[Mudge]

Louie gave credit where credit was due as to where most of the science comes from, I dont think he stole anything, he was inspired by it and went with it.

People using his principles deadlift just fine, i.e. Andy Bolton. His bench pressers have only really recently been making 'good' numbers, they have been known for good squatting though for some time. Deadlift and squat benefit most from their training, the better benchers traditionally have been Metal Militia devotes.

 

[CowPimp]

louie simmons stole the conjugate periodization protocol from the russian weightlifters.

he didn't invent it.

Yeah, I should've used the word popularize. I do recall that he said he started doing a lot of reading from older Russian weightlifting literature.

 

[CowPimp]

well lets see, the best powerlifters in the world are gary frank, scott mendelson, brent mikesell, ed coan( one of the best years ago), gene rychlak, andy bolton,and ryan kennelly . do i see any of them trained by louie simmons, NOPE.

Well, if you look at the WS BB site, there are some powerlifters there with very impressive stats. Chuck Vogelphol is one of them. Louie Simmons himself can jam. Jim Wendler is another monster that follows their protocol. Not to mention, these are merely people who actually train the the gym, Westside Barbell. There are plenty of other successful powerlifters who use conjugate periodization. Of course, Ed Coan is all about linear periodization, and he rocked the PL world.

 

[P-funk]

Louie gave credit where credit was due as to where most of the science comes from, I dont think he stole anything, he was inspired by it and went with it.

People using his principles deadlift just fine, i.e. Andy Bolton. His bench pressers have only really recently been making 'good' numbers, they have been known for good squatting though for some time. Deadlift and squat benefit most from their training, the better benchers traditionally have been Metal Militia devotes.

Your right. I don't disagree with the methods. I know they work. I was just quoting what some olympic coaches say. I have found some of the methods to work actually pretty well with my olympic lifting.


I think he is a really smart guy but I wish he wouldn't give his opinions on olympic weightlifting since, it isn't something he has ever done. I believe he is pretty popular for saying that he only trusts coaches that have "had time under the bar" and can prove what they know by doing it themself. If that is true then louie can certainly be an authority on squat, bench and deadlifting. But, I have never seen him snatch or clean and jerk with the best in the world so he needs to keep out of that debate.

 

[swordfish]

how does linear periodization work.

 

[P-funk]

how does linear periodization work.

you start with a high amount of voume and low intensity and over the weeks you progress to low volume/high intensity workouts:

for example:

weeks 1-3= 65%
weeks 4-6= 75%
weeks 7-9= 85%
weeks 10-11= 95-100%

you would use a higher amount of sets and reps on weeks 1-3 (15 reps x 4 sets) and slowly decrese that as the intensities get greater down to the last week when the intensity is very high (100%) where you would be using less volume (1 rep x 1-3 sets).



While it can be effective for most people it is thought to be a pretty archaic way of setting up a training program for an athlete since the low intensity/high volume weeks show little crossover to the maximal strength/low volume/low intensity weeks that you are trying to build up to.

 

[CowPimp]

Some more information on periodization for you swordfish:

http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/showthread.php?t=58699

 

[andrewjohngordo]

Is this a Powerlifters vs Olympic Weightlifters forum? I believe they are two totally different sports and there is not much point comparing them. Having tried both I would say that Olympic lifting is much more of a challange. It's not just GRUNT and pure strength like power lifting. Olympic lifting requires speed, power, strength, adgility, coordination, flexability, great concentration, and courage (drop under a heavy bar). I would bet kilo for kilo powerlifters could beat olympic lifters at bench pressing and deadlifting every time, however I would have to say that Olympic lifters make for better squatters. A friend of mine, the British Weightlifting champion, squats every time he trains, and the only support he uses are knee wraps.

Mens 85kg Clean Jerk record is 218kg. I bet theres not many 85kg powerlifters who can lift 218kg above their head.

as for speed, watch this video of Pyrros Dimas and then try tell me Olympic lifters are not fast. (ignore the vid of stick boy)

http://www.putfile.com/andrewjohngordon

 

[Mudge]

Don't tell me that Dimas isn't lightning fast. I would like to see anyone from Westside Barbell drop under some of the pulls that he gets up there.

That is exactly the point he was trying to make, they are dropping under the lift.

I think the point about stability is well founded, narrow footed isn't the way to charge into another human being. But most of what he is saying sounds like an argument with no science behind it, just the love of Powerlifting somehow being better in his eyes.

 

[WINSTON]

its debatable the powr snatch the power clean and the regular full squat . gaive more athletic ability than a power squat baR SET LOW .

 

[WINSTON]

But yes no weighlifters ever squatted 1000 pounds either . . They use squat as a tool not a main lift .

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

Everyone thinks the Olympic lifts are so quick. While your cleans at 60% look fast, so do our box squats at 60%. The athlete who can power clean 400 uses 240(60%). The lifter who can squat 800 uses 480 (60%). Who do you really think would be faster and stronger?

Power Output Comparisions

Work by Dr John Garhammer, a biomechanist at the Department of Physical Education at California State University reveals some interesting comparisons between exercises in the development of power. ...In "A Review of Power Output Studies of Olympic and Powerlifting: Methodology, Performance, Prediction and Evaluation Test", elite Olympic lifters' and powerlifters' power outputs were as follows (w/kg = watts per kilo of body weight):

During Entire Snatch or Clean Pull Movements:
34.3 w/kg Men
21.8 w/kg Women

Second Pulls:
52.6 w/kg Men
39.2 w/kg Women

Squat and Deadlift:
12 w/kg Men

(Bench Press
4 w/kg)

With this basic breakdown in mind, the power output comparisons of a
100-kilo male lifter in the clean, second pull and deadlift would be as follows.

Clean-------------3430 watts
Second Pull------5260 watts
Deadlift----------1200 watts
(Bench Press----- 400 watts)

Obviously, there is a huge difference in power outputs. The power output of clean pulls is 2.85 time greater than a deadlift (squats). Second pulls are even higher with power outputs 4.38 times l arger than deadlifts (squats). Garhammer's research showed that even when dropping the training poundage down to lower percentages for Olympic pulls and deadlifts, outputs for Olympic pulls were still almost twice as great. Starr was way ahead of the curve on his training in regards to Olympic pulls for deadlifts. The "No Deadlift" Deadlift Program

in Olympic lifting, as the bar is raising, the lifter is lowering himself, making it appear that they are moving the bar at great speed

Laughable

That is one of the dumbbest things anyone has ever stated.

The purpose of an Olympic Lifter lowering themselves isn't appear fast. The drop is to get under the bar so they can either squat clean or snatch the weight...lift more.

Olympic lifting is the biggest bust in the United States. We have not placed a single lifter on the "A" list, yet strength coaches still advocate the Olympic lifts.

The Best Olympic Lifters In America

The best Olympic Lifter in American are playing professional football. Football pays better and is more prestigious.

That one of the biggest reason, American does't have any great Olympic Lifter.

Conjugate Training

Olympic Lifters are "The Poster Children" for Conjugate Training. The develop strength with squats, deadlifts and the shoulder press.

The develop power with the Olympic movements.

Simmons

Simmons has "borrowed" a lot of the training methodolity from Olympic Lifters.

Simmons has done a of positive things to enhance how a powerlifter training.

However, Simmons often misinterprets information and believe he know more than he does.

Many of Simmons' statements and thought are just plain idiotic.

Kenny Croxdale

 

[WINSTON]

the power squat is unique but with bandages a supersuit and a monolift and low bar its not a real full squat anymore