Native Americans.
They gave the pilgrims picnic tables and turkeys and then they died!
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- Thread starter min0 lee
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Native Americans.
They gave the pilgrims picnic tables and turkeys and then they died!
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talk about a bad tipping experience.....
You attempt to tie morality with sustaining forward growth. WTF?!?!? How would you make that connection? Did God kill the roman empire for it's lack of morals or was it the forward march of other civilizations? Did Spanish dominance over South America fail because Spanish morality failed or was it the incursion of other countries into Spanish trade routes?
You just used God killing off various stages of history on a morality clause as evidence of a religious moral superiority. If that was the case then the Muslims wouldn't exist. They'd all be carrying bibles and wearing crosses around their necks. God had nothing to do with it. Fear had everything to do with it. If the Islamic fundamentalists attack us in a direct all out frontal way we would march right through them and destroy their religiously motivated asses. 50 years from now they'd have George Bush Senior high schools all over the mid-east.
Fear of their own demise is the only thing that holds the Muslim back ... in spite of their Allah demanding that they attack us. They take pot shots at us like 9/11, or make little onesy-twosey bombings like the several thwarted attempts in the last five years. Do they mount up and come on full bore? Nope. Even though their Allah commands them to attack and destroy us it is fear ... not religion ... that holds them back.
It is fear of getting waxed that's the base of our morality today. Dress it up and put that good ol' religious Sunday go to meetin' suit on it, but fear and self preservation are the reality that we learn as kids. When you first grew teeth you didn't stop bitting mommy in the leg because you love Jesus ... it was because momma put the fear of her in your lil butt. When you had to have your chores done or else dad kicked your ass it wasn't your love of God that put the haste in your step ... it was fear of getting your butt kicked. When you decided not to steal from the corner supermarket anymore it wasn't God speaking to your spiritual growth, it was because getting caught stealing that candy bar meant your ass. When you first got laid it wasn't love of God that drove your lust it was your shmeckle. College? Marriage? God is a concept, while self preservation and personal advancement are a reality.
BC just put that one to bed.
Put a bow on it, this bitch is wrapped.
Put a bow on it, this bitch is wrapped.
the romans, like other civilizations were not destroyed by superior civilizations. the decay of Rome was happening from the inside long before inferior civilizations came in a ate it up.
i also completly disagree with you description of Islam and the muslim people
I think you need to start fearing that great spook in the sky......You attempt to tie morality with sustaining forward growth. WTF?!?!? How would you make that connection? Did God kill the roman empire for it's lack of morals or was it the forward march of other civilizations? Did Spanish dominance over South America fail because Spanish morality failed or was it the incursion of other countries into Spanish trade routes?
You just used God killing off various stages of history on a morality clause as evidence of a religious moral superiority. If that was the case then the Muslims wouldn't exist. They'd all be carrying bibles and wearing crosses around their necks. God had nothing to do with it. Fear had everything to do with it. If the Islamic fundamentalists attack us in a direct all out frontal way we would march right through them and destroy their religiously motivated asses. 50 years from now they'd have George Bush Senior high schools all over the mid-east.
Fear of their own demise is the only thing that holds the Muslim back ... in spite of their Allah demanding that they attack us. They take pot shots at us like 9/11, or make little onesy-twosey bombings like the several thwarted attempts in the last five years. Do they mount up and come on full bore? Nope. Even though their Allah commands them to attack and destroy us it is fear ... not religion ... that holds them back.
It is fear of getting waxed that's the base of our morality today. Dress it up and put that good ol' religious Sunday go to meetin' suit on it, but fear and self preservation are the reality that we learn as kids. When you first grew teeth you didn't stop bitting mommy in the leg because you love Jesus ... it was because momma put the fear of her in your lil butt. When you had to have your chores done or else dad kicked your ass it wasn't your love of God that put the haste in your step ... it was fear of getting your butt kicked. When you decided not to steal from the corner supermarket anymore it wasn't God speaking to your spiritual growth, it was because getting caught stealing that candy bar meant your ass. When you first got laid it wasn't love of God that drove your lust it was your shmeckle. College? Marriage? God is a concept, while self preservation and personal advancement are a reality.
Religion for me does set morals and actions in life such as the golden rule. Am I perfect. Not by a long shot.......never will be. As a person you can only strive to do better each and every day. Now without any guidelines in life to guide you, what do you use as a guideline, say if you are an athiest like BC? Who do you pattern your life and actions by? Beliefs have to come from somewhere. What make you think an action or thought is right or wrong?
BC you may wanna actually study the fall of the Roman Empire first before you try to use that fall in support of your morality comes from religion concept. The two are not interwoven.
As far as you being in disagreement with my description of Islam ... which part?
Some people need religion.
Hey great question dg. Could that person find someone with wealth, take him hostage then steal all he's got, eliminate all the evidence including the poor slob he's ripping off, and move on to his next victim? Yup. Take it for granted that person knows all the things that would give him away while in the act or get him caught after the fact. Sooo what holds that person back? For him there is no looming deity waiting to burn his soul as penance for my transgression.
So then what does hold him back?
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thankyou how could i have been so wrong......from your own reference is the following:
"a surge in decadence amongst Roman citizenry"
"Edward Gibbon famously placed the blame on a loss of civic virtue among the Roman citizens"
"the gradual collapse of the Roman power ...was the consequence of a series of contingent events"
all of the many theories you point to show a decline of the roman empire from the inside and very little to do with the power of outside forces. you actually helped prove my point. and i thank you.
as far as islam goes. its only a small faction of the whole populace that interprets islamic law as you say. islam has as many factions as Christianity does almost. grouping them all together as one is difficult to do in my opinion
Nope.
So your choice of learning the fall of roman civ was that a surge in decadence amongst Roman citizenry lead to Edward Gibbon's famously placed blame on a loss of civic virtue among the Roman citizens, leading to the gradual collapse of the Roman power. You went in there with that opinion and took nothing from the learning process. If you pick and choose what you like from w/e your study topic is then you never learn anything. Take what you study as a whole, however unlikely or un-liked ... and you will learn that event.
You left out some serious stuff that was not related to the morality of the times in order to make this lame attempt to prove your concept. Study Germanic independence from Rome, failed supply lines, and British advancements. Your wish to string together the moral stability of the soldier and the leader as the primary causal influence for the fall of the empire will fail when you stop reading with religious blinders on. Chuck the load of religious doctrine and you will eventually come to see that the Roman empire essentially evolved. The Germans became their own country again, as did Briton not because God decreed that they were free but because they themselves wanted their own sovereignty back. Islam came around and sealed the deal on the east. Morality did play in the devision, but was that the result of a lack of God in their lives? It was greed for power and control not poor moral fiber that caused the devision of the Roman empire.
I'm letting the Islamic thing go. I think you know a very small amount about Islam so it would be too one sided. The only reason I used Islam in a metaphor was to offer you a view from the other side. From their view YOU are damned eternally. You are an immoral zionist supporting oppressor bound to hell upon your death insha'Allah. I was trying to put you where you put ABG, but you refused to see the counter perspective and instead barged on about morality killing Rome.
BTW ... this has the potential of becoming an interesting debate on morality . We used to debate various issues a bit more around here.
Just don't take offense at anything I say. There is no malicious intent on my part, just the desire to debate pointless shit for the pure pleasure of examining the history of it all. We might even learn something in the process.
Just don't take offense at anything I say. There is no malicious intent on my part, just the desire to debate pointless shit for the pure pleasure of examining the history of it all. We might even learn something in the process.
can you please show me where i said ABG was going to go to hell? i think your placing pre-concieved notions about Christianity upon me as you are accusing me of doing with these other subjects. i could be wrong, but i dont ever remember saying ABG was destined for hell by not being a Christian. the Christian blinders thing is such a load of crap. i love how you will accuse me of having blinders just because i disagree with you. as if your eyes are so much more open than mine because i have faith and therefore im unable to see things as they really are. what a joke.
my contention is that the loss of morals within the roman community led to a break down of their society and left them vulnerable when they once were strong. yes greed, corruption, and lust for power i would all consider to be immoral traits. even a child would be able to read those references you used and be able to see how Rome was weakened from the inside long before they fell
BC i know this may be a long shot, but have you ever read the foundation trilogy, by isaac asimov? though its science fiction, its an interesting read on the fall of the roman empire.
You entirely missed the point BC. Rome never had any morality in the first place. The Roman empire was ALWAYS based on conquer thy neighbor and enrich myself at the cost of whatever. There could be no moral degradation where no morality ever existed. You mistake morale for morals. John Q Egyptian lost faith in the Roman leadership to provide a better protection for himself and his wealth than he could his own damn self so John Q Egyptian told Rome to fuck off. That was a loss of morale, not moral degradation.
You said "remember that when your searching for more in your life". Maybe you meant something other than what you implied. The implication taken by the atheist quarter was that because ABG isn't a believer in the bible when he looks for something more he won't find it. The deeper intonation is that you being a God fearing soul will.
Perspective and syntax share a similarity in that how you come across to people paves the road in front of you:
I helped my uncle jack off his horse.
I helped my uncle Jack off his horse.
" the Christian blinders thing is such a load of crap. i love how you will accuse me of having blinders just because i disagree with you. as if your eyes are so much more open than mine because i have faith and therefore im unable to see things as they really are. what a joke."
When you cling to a perspective and declare that perspective to be a rationale for everything as most Christians do, then you are blinded. At the least you are blinded to what your words will actually say, and at best you will be blinded from seeing how you present yourself to the world. You see your self as a Christian and you are of course 100% confidant that what ever doctrine has been sent your way by the founders of the sect you belong too is more than likely correct and we are probably wrong. I'm not looking at the world through Joseph Smith Jr colored optics. God, Jesus, or the esteemed Mr. Smith will not predispose me to see the world as I am prescribed by the religious leaders to do. I'll try and look at each and every single thing I encounter on its own merits; however, when someone says they don't believe in the bible I wouldn't even consider myself as having a greater clarity of vision to see something higher because I do nor would I talk down to them as you did.
I loved Asimov when I was a kid. BC I read everything of his I could find in the library, but that was 35 or 40 years ago. I'll read the cliffs on it though just to refresh if you think it's relevant.
there are no athiests in a fox hole....i didnt imply anything. i meant exactly what i said. and it has nothing to do with ABG going to hell. try not to read my posts thinking you already know what im going to say and you wont misinterpret something that should have been easy to understand. every person comes to the point when they start searching for more. regardless of beliefs. we all begin to question if what we believe/were taught is true and have a need to find out for ourselves. ABG isnt a believer in the bible. big deal. i can see why people have difficulty believeing the bible. especially with some Christians espousing it to be 100% accurate despite obvious descrepencies. i took issue with him making a classless remark to my beliefs in the bible and Jesus Christ. and like i said there are no athiests in a fox hole. the time comes for everyone to start searching for God. the deeper intonation is that he will find it were he leasts expects it. or may have previously disregarded.
ive never said anyone is going to hell on this forum for any of their beliefs or practices. (least not that i can remember) i may have told someone to go to hell, but thats just wishful thinking on my part. ill let Jesus reserve final judgement on who goes to hell. thats a job i dont ever want to have
I think this was my point in my previous post. If you have nothing to guide your beliefs on this happens. How did they know these actions were wrong? Did anyone ever tell them? How do we know today that these actions are wrong? For me, it's the belief in the bible and the teachings Jesus passed on.
as far as Christian morality goes Rome may have had very little. It wouldnt be very fair for anyone who doesnt know of Christ to be judged by the standards that Christ set forth however. But Rome did have standards, they did have Roman virtue, they did have standards which their society was built upon. the breakdown in their society was when they no longer followed their own moral codes. and God can judge them against the laws of right and wrong that they do know.
I was born with a moral compass. My environment helped polarize that compass to some extent, but ultimately it will be me that sets true north. If I'm born with a warped sense of right and wrong religion isn't going to set me straight.
Let me provide a perfect example of poor moral alignment. Child molesters in the clergy weren't the only ones guilty of the crimes they committed. The entire leadership that, once it was known a member of the clergy had molested a child, hid the facts and allowed multiple clergymen to continue molesting children in multiple cities are equally culpable. These were people committed to serving God by serving the community yet they knowingly allowed kids to be raped. This was not an isolated occurrence, but rather a nation wide nightmare. These people all had their own moral compasses that they were born with. Religion didn't set their true north for them.
What I'm saying is that a person who is born with the right moral instincts doesn't need religion to know not to skin kittens during recess. Conversely, religion isn't going to teach someone born with a bent morality not to diddle the alter boy.
I'll go into religion as a the primary tool for social control and political attacks through the middle ages in another post.
Let me provide a perfect example of poor moral alignment. Child molesters in the clergy weren't the only ones guilty of the crimes they committed. The entire leadership that, once it was known a member of the clergy had molested a child, hid the facts and allowed multiple clergymen to continue molesting children in multiple cities are equally culpable. These were people committed to serving God by serving the community yet they knowingly allowed kids to be raped. This was not an isolated occurrence, but rather a nation wide nightmare. These people all had their own moral compasses that they were born with. Religion didn't set their true north for them.
What I'm saying is that a person who is born with the right moral instincts doesn't need religion to know not to skin kittens during recess. Conversely, religion isn't going to teach someone born with a bent morality not to diddle the alter boy.
I'll go into religion as a the primary tool for social control and political attacks through the middle ages in another post.
Jesus just told me he just shot a massive load.....
I'm on bio-chem's side for once.
I think child molesters were created in a labratory alongside gays and blacks in an attempt to corrupt the moral fibers of white society by the same hook-nosed Jews that killed Jesus.
I think child molesters were created in a labratory alongside gays and blacks in an attempt to corrupt the moral fibers of white society by the same hook-nosed Jews that killed Jesus.
... you know I think I heard Rush say that once.
...
i dont know why your frustrated. thats what it seems you were saying. if not please clarify
