My log of 'RESULTS' from At Large Nutrition

[nni]

There are also several studies (or reviews of studies) showing it to be effective.

Effects of beta-hydroxy-beta-methylbutyrate (HMB) ...[Nutr Metab (Lond). 2008] - PubMed Result


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...ubmed_RVDocSum

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...ubmed_RVDocSum

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...ubmed_RVDocSum

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...ubmed_RVDocSum

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...ubmed_RVDocSum

other than the first study from 2001, nothing significant is there.

as for the pubmed game, i hate this game, but i will paly, for you.

Effects of beta-hydroxy-beta-methylbutyrate on aer...[Int J Sport Nutr Exerc Metab. 2007] - PubMed Result

Regarding body composition, there were no significant differences.

Effects of six weeks of beta-hydroxy-beta-methylbu...[J Strength Cond Res. 2007] - PubMed Result

HMB and HMBCr were concluded to have no ergogenic effect on muscular strength and endurance, leg power, or anthropometry when taken orally by highly trained male athletes over 6 weeks.



hmb isnt new, i found it needs to be dosed above 10g to really see results, and at that point ill stick with leucine.

 

[Built]

There are also several studies (or reviews of studies) showing it to be effective.

Effects of beta-hydroxy-beta-methylbutyrate (HMB) ...[Nutr Metab (Lond). 2008] - PubMed Result

1. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...ubmed_RVDocSum
   
2. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...ubmed_RVDocSum
   
3. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...ubmed_RVDocSum
   
4. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...ubmed_RVDocSum
   
5. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...ubmed_RVDocSum

Since you are recycling your assertions, I'll respond with a recycled argument from your own board:

Here is a bit more about HMB...

1. Creatine and beta-hydroxy-beta-methylbutyrate (HMB...[Nutrition. 2001 Jul-Aug] - PubMed Result
   
2. Over-the-counter supplements and strength training. [Exerc Sport Sci Rev. 2000] - PubMed Result
   
3. Beta-hydroxy-beta-methylbutyrate ingestion, Part I...[Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2000] - PubMed Result
   
4. Nutritional supplementation of the leucine metabol...[Nutrition. 2000] - PubMed Result
   
5. beta-hydroxy-beta-methylbutyrate (HMB) supplementa...[J Nutr. 2000] - PubMed Result

I've read all those already, but I do appreciate it.


Study 1 is from 2001 and does not mention if individuals are trained.

Study 2 is from 2000 and doesn't give any details as to materials and methods, etc. so I can't comment further.

Study 3 is from 2000 and involved "Thirty-seven, untrained, college-aged men."

Study 4 is from 2000.

Study 5 is from 2000 and only says that HMB can be safe to supplement with and has no ill side effects and that it can decrease the risk of heart attack and stroke becuase of overal reduction of cholesterol.


I just don't see anything recent that negates any more recent study that show no positive anaerobic effect of HMB.

EDIT: Here is one, but it used untrained men.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov.proxy.l...ez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

Int J Sport Nutr Exerc Metab. 2005 Aug;15(4):413-24.Links
Supplementation with beta-hydroxy-beta-methylbutyrate (HMB) and alpha-ketoisocaproic acid (KIC) reduces signs and symptoms of exercise-induced muscle damage in man.van Someren KA, Edwards AJ, Howatson G.
School of Life Sciences, Kingston University, Kingston-upon-Thames, United Kingdom.

This study examined the effects of beta-hydroxyl-beta-methylbutyrate (HMB) and alpha-ketoisocaproic acid (KIC) supplementation on signs and symptoms of exercise-induced muscle damage following a single bout of eccentrically biased resistance exercise. Six non-resistance trained male subjects performed an exercise protocol designed to induce muscle damage on two separate occasions, performed on the dominant or non-dominant arm in a counter-balanced crossover design. Subjects were assigned to an HMB/KIC (3 g HMB and 0.3 g alpha-ketoisocaproic acid, daily) or placebo treatment for 14 d prior to exercise in the counter-balanced crossover design. One repetition maximum (1RM), plasma creatine kinase activity (CK), delayed onset muscle soreness (DOMS), limb girth, and range of motion (ROM) were determined pre-exercise, at 1h, 24 h, 48 h, and 72 h post-exercise. DOMS and the percentage changes in 1RM, limb girth, and ROM all changed over the 72 h period (P < 0.05). HMB//IC supplementation attenuated the CK response, the percentage decrement in 1RM, and the percentage increase in limb girth (P < 0.05). In addition, DOMS was reduced at 24 h post-exercise (P < 0.05) in the HMB/KIC treatment. In conclusion, 14 d of HMB and KIC supplementation reduced signs and symptoms of exercise-induced muscle damage in non-resistance trained males following a single bout of eccentrically biased resistance exercise.

I read the first study you posted - the full version is available here: Effects of beta-hydroxy-beta-methylbutyrate (HMB) on exercise performance and body composition across varying levels of age, sex, and training experience: A review

Interesting overview. The authors conclude:

The first purpose of this paper was to provide an in depth and objective analysis of HMB research. While various studies analyzed in this manuscript support the efficacy of HMB as an effective ergogenic aid for athletes that decreases DOMS, markers of muscle damage, and body fat, while increasing various markers of performance, including LBM and strength in resistance trained athletes, and OBLA and VO2 peak in endurance trained athletes, a number of studies analyzed did not support the efficacy of HMB supplementation. The current authors suggest that these conflicting results may in part be attributed to the variability in humans, inadequate sample sizes, and methodological issues such as the specificity of testing conditions, cases of overtraining, elicitation of an inadequate training stimulus in experienced participants, limited dependent variables, and short duration experiments. Collectively, these results warrant further research on HMB supplementation while taking into account these various issues. Tables 1 and 2 summarize the results from the HMB literature.

Table 1
Studies Which Support the Efficacy of HMB supplementation in Varying Populations


Table 2
Studies Which do not Support the Efficacy of HMB Supplementation in Varying Populations

There is compelling evidence that HMB supplementation may be useful for clinical muscle wasting conditions including AIDS, cancer, bed-rest, and during periods of caloric deficits. HMB also appears to be safe, and may improve various markers of health, including blood pressure and LDL-cholesterol. When supplementing with HMB, current evidence suggests that 1 g of HMB should be consumed 3 times per day, for a total of 3 g of HMB daily (or 38 mg/kg of bodyweight). However, more studies are needed to determine the optimal dosage and frequency of HMB supplementation, and the overall efficacy of HMB supplementation as an ergogenic aid for athletes.

The second purpose of this paper was to provide an in depth analysis of possible mechanisms that HMB may exert its effects. Results from this review showed that HMB appears to primarily exert its effects through protective and anticatabolic mechanism. The prevailing explanation is the cholesterol synthesis hypothesis. However, recent studies have shown that HMB's anticatabolic effects are at least in part mediated by attenuation of the activation and increased gene expression of the ubiquitin-pathway. Furthermore, there is evidence that HMB may directly increase protein synthesis.​

<shrug>

At least we know it's probably safe.

I'd be interested to see how well a sugar-free version of results works. 80g of sugar is too rich for my budget.

 

[chris mason]

other than the first study from 2001, nothing significant is there.

as for the pubmed game, i hate this game, but i will paly, for you.

Effects of beta-hydroxy-beta-methylbutyrate on aer...[Int J Sport Nutr Exerc Metab. 2007] - PubMed Result

Regarding body composition, there were no significant differences.

Effects of six weeks of beta-hydroxy-beta-methylbu...[J Strength Cond Res. 2007] - PubMed Result

HMB and HMBCr were concluded to have no ergogenic effect on muscular strength and endurance, leg power, or anthropometry when taken orally by highly trained male athletes over 6 weeks.



hmb isnt new, i found it needs to be dosed above 10g to really see results, and at that point ill stick with leucine.

First, I am not playing a game? I posted what I did to show an alternative to your opinion.

Next, you are entitled to your opinion, but that does not preclude the fact RESULTS works exceptionally well and HMB is an integral component in the product. If I did not believe it was, I would remove it as it is relatively expensive and raises the price point of the product. If I thought it ineffective I could remove it and sell the product for significantly less and still make the same profit margin. I would be an idiot not to do that as more people will buy an effective product which costs less, no? My business acumen is relatively ok.

Finally, you do not have ANY study which looks at HMB in the context of RESULTS. In other words, when it is combined with creatine and beta alanine. It would be ignorant to assume that HMB would have the same effects independently as it does in the context I have referenced.

 

[chris mason]

Since you are recycling your assertions, I'll respond with a recycled argument from your own board:


I read the first study you posted - the full version is available here: Effects of beta-hydroxy-beta-methylbutyrate (HMB) on exercise performance and body composition across varying levels of age, sex, and training experience: A review

Interesting overview. The authors conclude:

The first purpose of this paper was to provide an in depth and objective analysis of HMB research. While various studies analyzed in this manuscript support the efficacy of HMB as an effective ergogenic aid for athletes that decreases DOMS, markers of muscle damage, and body fat, while increasing various markers of performance, including LBM and strength in resistance trained athletes, and OBLA and VO2 peak in endurance trained athletes, a number of studies analyzed did not support the efficacy of HMB supplementation. The current authors suggest that these conflicting results may in part be attributed to the variability in humans, inadequate sample sizes, and methodological issues such as the specificity of testing conditions, cases of overtraining, elicitation of an inadequate training stimulus in experienced participants, limited dependent variables, and short duration experiments. Collectively, these results warrant further research on HMB supplementation while taking into account these various issues. Tables 1 and 2 summarize the results from the HMB literature.
​

Table 1
Studies Which Support the Efficacy of HMB supplementation in Varying Populations


Table 2
Studies Which do not Support the Efficacy of HMB Supplementation in Varying Populations

There is compelling evidence that HMB supplementation may be useful for clinical muscle wasting conditions including AIDS, cancer, bed-rest, and during periods of caloric deficits. HMB also appears to be safe, and may improve various markers of health, including blood pressure and LDL-cholesterol. When supplementing with HMB, current evidence suggests that 1 g of HMB should be consumed 3 times per day, for a total of 3 g of HMB daily (or 38 mg/kg of bodyweight). However, more studies are needed to determine the optimal dosage and frequency of HMB supplementation, and the overall efficacy of HMB supplementation as an ergogenic aid for athletes.

The second purpose of this paper was to provide an in depth analysis of possible mechanisms that HMB may exert its effects. Results from this review showed that HMB appears to primarily exert its effects through protective and anticatabolic mechanism. The prevailing explanation is the cholesterol synthesis hypothesis. However, recent studies have shown that HMB's anticatabolic effects are at least in part mediated by attenuation of the activation and increased gene expression of the ubiquitin-pathway. Furthermore, there is evidence that HMB may directly increase protein synthesis.
​

<shrug>

At least we know it's probably safe.

I'd be interested to see how well a sugar-free version of results works. 80g of sugar is too rich for my budget.

Why would I not present the same evidence that I used to refute a similar criticism on our board?

There are studies for and against it. Again, there are NO studies which look at it in the context in which it exists in RESULTS. If you are truly of a scientific mind you should realize the relevance of that fact.

The bottom line is that Lucifuge, like the VAST majority of its users, is experiencing GREAT results using the product. As I have said over and over again, there is a reason the lifters at Westside, the strongest powerlifter on the planet Donnie Thompson, and the baddest powerlifter on the planet Chuch Vogelpohl ALL request the product... IT WORKS!!!

That's what its all about!

 

[nni]

First, I am not playing a game? I posted what I did to show an alternative to your opinion.

Next, you are entitled to your opinion, but that does not preclude the fact RESULTS works exceptionally well and HMB is an integral component in the product. If I did not believe it was, I would remove it as it is relatively expensive and raises the price point of the product. If I thought it ineffective I could remove it and sell the product for significantly less and still make the same profit margin. I would be an idiot not to do that as more people will buy an effective product which costs less, no? My business acumen is relatively ok.

Finally, you do not have ANY study which looks at HMB in the context of RESULTS. In other words, when it is combined with creatine and beta alanine. It would be ignorant to assume that HMB would have the same effects independently as it does in the context I have referenced.

the second study is with creatine, and through the mechanisms in which creatine, beta alanine and hmb work there really is no synergy. creatine is effective as is beta alanine, as are carbs. there is synergy between carbs and creatine, but the others work on their own. point is if a study shows hmb doesnt work on its own, adding the above isnt going to change that imo. but, take out the hmb and half the carbs and results looks good to me, add in 7grams of eaa's and i would make it a staple.

 

[Built]

Chris - I haven't said the product doesn't work - if you feel something from it and your clients like it, there may be something to it.

The facts are that the research is inconclusive at best, and that the product has a LOT of sugar for an ordinary lifter. For a 300-lb powerlifter, an assisted 6' tall male bodybuilder, or a skinny 19-year-old male on a bulk - perhaps not a problem. But for little old me,I'd need an insulin chaser!

I've asked before - others have as well: how about a sugar-free version?

 

[lucifuge]

Day 15
no sleep = no training

-----------------------------------

Day 16
5/16/08

Pull Ups:
BW x 8, 8, 8

W.G. Pulldowns:
85 x 20
185 x 5, 5, 5, 5

Reverse Grip Pull Downs:
185 x 5
135 x 8, 8

Dumbell Pullovers:
70 x 10, 8, 8

Preacher Curls:
115 x 3 PR wow, that's heavy. almost tipped my bench LOL!85 x 8, 7 much more manageable

Alt Dumbell Curls:
30's x8, 8, 6
(drop)
25's x 6
(drop)
20's x 4

 

[lucifuge]

Chris, nni, and built... no disrespect intended and pissing match aside, it really is a great product.
I'm already planning on ordering it again, however (in a nod to the opinions expressed by built and nni) I'll be cutting back to one scoop.

 

[powerrack]

Yo Chris,

Just curious, why do you keep telling us about your sponsored athletes loving the product. That doesn't really mean shit. If I was sponsered by you, I'd love Results too.

If you put me on the Atlarge payroll and allotment list, I'd probably grab some Results too. You know those guys aren't gonna say any bad shit about the product, they are sponsored athletes, why would they ruin their sponsership? You think Ronnie Coleman is gonna say any f'd up shit about NO Xplode? No!

I know business is business, but to most of us that are not teenagers anymore, we don't get all gay over hearing the names of well known atheltes linked to products that are provided by their sponser.

I'm not saying it's not a decent product, I just think that bringing up the names of sponsered athletes every few threads is kinda gay, it doesn't really prove anything if they are using it or asking you for it.

BTW, I love Nitrean, one of my favorite products out there. Tastes great, mixes well. Love it!

Peace

 

[Travis Bell]

haha we are not on any payroll. Thats a good one though

We are offered supplements. If we don't like them, we don't take them. But don't say that we lie about our product reviews. Thats bullcrap. If I say I like a supplement, I like it. I can tell you I really like Results and will continue to keep using it.

 

[chris mason]

the second study is with creatine, and through the mechanisms in which creatine, beta alanine and hmb work there really is no synergy. creatine is effective as is beta alanine, as are carbs. there is synergy between carbs and creatine, but the others work on their own. point is if a study shows hmb doesnt work on its own, adding the above isnt going to change that imo. but, take out the hmb and half the carbs and results looks good to me, add in 7grams of eaa's and i would make it a staple.

I want to say this nicely and to not have you lose face in the process. I know you are both trying to educate and learn and I respect that.

First, whether or not HMB works by itself is something that is open to argument based upon various studies. I feel that it does, but could agree to disagree on that point. Now, IF you were correct and it did not work by itself that in no way indicates what it would do in concert with other ingredients and to make assumptions about it, especially when they fly in the face of empirical evidence, is just poor science.

Chris

 

[chris mason]

Yo Chris,

Just curious, why do you keep telling us about your sponsored athletes loving the product. That doesn't really mean shit. If I was sponsered by you, I'd love Results too.

If you put me on the Atlarge payroll and allotment list, I'd probably grab some Results too. You know those guys aren't gonna say any bad shit about the product, they are sponsored athletes, why would they ruin their sponsership? You think Ronnie Coleman is gonna say any f'd up shit about NO Xplode? No!

I know business is business, but to most of us that are not teenagers anymore, we don't get all gay over hearing the names of well known atheltes linked to products that are provided by their sponser.

I'm not saying it's not a decent product, I just think that bringing up the names of sponsered athletes every few threads is kinda gay, it doesn't really prove anything if they are using it or asking you for it.

BTW, I love Nitrean, one of my favorite products out there. Tastes great, mixes well. Love it!

Peace

I understand your position. You must understand it places me in a tough place. Let me put it this way, I work with Chuck Vogelpohl and help him out with supplements. Chuck tells me what he wants and I give it to him. Chuck is the farthest thing from a company shill that there ever has been. He would never say he liked something just to say he liked it. In fact, he doesn't say much at all. I work with him because he is one of the baddest powerlifters on the planet and I feel he has earned it.

Chuck tells me what he wants when we wants it. If I have something new I ask him to try it. If he feels it works he asks for more, if not, he doesn't. Chuck likes RESULTS and consistently asks for it. It is that simple. He is not on any kind of a payroll. He has no reason to ask for something if he does not like it.

Now, if one of the strongest men on the planet likes my product and ASKS for it, why would I not want to let people know that?

 

[chris mason]

Chris - I haven't said the product doesn't work - if you feel something from it and your clients like it, there may be something to it.

The facts are that the research is inconclusive at best, and that the product has a LOT of sugar for an ordinary lifter. For a 300-lb powerlifter, an assisted 6' tall male bodybuilder, or a skinny 19-year-old male on a bulk - perhaps not a problem. But for little old me,I'd need an insulin chaser!

I've asked before - others have as well: how about a sugar-free version?

No, the FACT is the product works extremely well as is evidenced by this log and that of nearly all of its users. Your comment about a 300 lbs powerlifter is really poor form.

 

[chris mason]

Chris, nni, and built... no disrespect intended and pissing match aside, it really is a great product.
I'm already planning on ordering it again, however (in a nod to the opinions expressed by built and nni) I'll be cutting back to one scoop.

It is, and thank you!

 

[ZECH]

As I have said over and over again, there is a reason the lifters at Westside, the strongest powerlifter on the planet Donnie Thompson, and the baddest powerlifter on the planet Chuch Vogelpohl ALL request the product... IT WORKS!!!

Chris, I say this with much respect and I don't want to get in a pissing match saying that it does or does not work. I'm sure it does to some degree. But if these guys you mention are world class atheletes, then I've never seen any that are not on something stronger (gear). So how can you relate their success with your product? I think if you are honest, you have to say that it's not related. But again, that's not saying your product doesn't work. I just want to compare apples to apples and not apples to oranges.

 

[chris mason]

Chris, I say this with much respect and I don't want to get in a pissing match saying that it does or does not work. I'm sure it does to some degree. But if these guys you mention are world class atheletes, then I've never seen any that are not on something stronger (gear). So how can you relate their success with your product? I think if you are honest, you have to say that it's not related. But again, that's not saying your product doesn't work. I just want to compare apples to apples and not apples to oranges.

I understand. Let me put it this way, I will not comment about whether or not said individuals use anabolics. That would be for them. That said, even if they did, if they change nothing else about their drug and training regimen and add a supplement and see significant benefits from said supplement then it stands to reason said supplement was effective for them. That makes sense, no?

I know you do not know me from Sam, but I am not like so many other supplement company owners who will attibute an athlete's success to my products. Chuck was the best prior to ever using my products. That said, if he feels they help his training I think it would be stupid of me not to point that out. In addition, if he asks for the product for no reason other than he feels it works I think that is a great endorsement of the product and want to share it.

 

[nni]

Chris, nni, and built... no disrespect intended and pissing match aside, it really is a great product.
I'm already planning on ordering it again, however (in a nod to the opinions expressed by built and nni) I'll be cutting back to one scoop.

yeah, sorry to clutter up your thread, ill bow out and not clutter it up anymore.

I want to say this nicely and to not have you lose face in the process. I know you are both trying to educate and learn and I respect that.

First, whether or not HMB works by itself is something that is open to argument based upon various studies. I feel that it does, but could agree to disagree on that point. Now, IF you were correct and it did not work by itself that in no way indicates what it would do in concert with other ingredients and to make assumptions about it, especially when they fly in the face of empirical evidence, is just poor science.

Chris

im not worried about losing face, and feel confident in what i have offered. hmb is not new, it is not a giant mystery to understand how it works, and the other ingredients are not new. they work on their own towards a common goal, but no research has shown that creatine enhances BA, or ba enhances hmb etc. by no means do i expect you to agree, that would be foolish. i just wanted to chime in and did, and expressed my feelings over the product, now for the sake of the person whose thread this is, ill stop posting, but by no means does that change anything i said.

 

[Built]

Chris - I haven't said the product doesn't work - if you feel something from it and your clients like it, there may be something to it.

The facts are that the research is inconclusive at best, and that the product has a LOT of sugar for an ordinary lifter. For a 300-lb powerlifter, an assisted 6' tall male bodybuilder, or a skinny 19-year-old male on a bulk - perhaps not a problem. But for little old me,I'd need an insulin chaser!

I've asked before - others have as well: how about a sugar-free version?

No, the FACT is the product works extremely well as is evidenced by this log and that of nearly all of its users. Your comment about a 300 lbs powerlifter is really poor form.

Did that not come out how I intended? Sorry about that.
My point was that a 300-lb powerlifter can handle 80g of sugar all at once. Those fellas have WAY more muscle than I have.

My measly 114 lbs of middle-aged female lean mass can't handle that much. That's why I'm interested in a sugar-free version.

 

[chris mason]

yeah, sorry to clutter up your thread, ill bow out and not clutter it up anymore.




im not worried about losing face, and feel confident in what i have offered. hmb is not new, it is not a giant mystery to understand how it works, and the other ingredients are not new. they work on their own towards a common goal, but no research has shown that creatine enhances BA, or ba enhances hmb etc. by no means do i expect you to agree, that would be foolish. i just wanted to chime in and did, and expressed my feelings over the product, now for the sake of the person whose thread this is, ill stop posting, but by no means does that change anything i said.

Ok, fair enough. We can agree to disagree.

 

[soxmuscle]

So basically,

through the studies that nni and built brought about in this thread, the BA and HMB are useless and monohydrate is an inferior creatine compared to other types?

 

[TexanTA1996]

Nearly all power lifters who compete at a high level usually use gear. So somehow they're magically attributing PR's in the gym due to an over the counter supplement that doesn't have a single conclusive study behind the main ingredient... Does this fool anyone over the age of 12?

 

[lucifuge]

yeah, sorry to clutter up your thread, ill bow out and not clutter it up anymore.

nonsense, you're not cluttering anything. I value your opinions

Nearly all power lifters who compete at a high level usually use gear. So somehow they're magically attributing PR's in the gym due to an over the counter supplement that doesn't have a single conclusive study behind the main ingredient... Does this fool anyone over the age of 12?

I don't know about 'fooling' anyone. I am simply recording information here.

 

[Built]

So basically,

through the studies that nni and built brought about in this thread, the BA and HMB are useless and monohydrate is an inferior creatine compared to other types?

Creatine monohydrate is tried and true, and the only kind I ever use. Cheap and proven effective.

BA appears to have some positive attributes, but I honestly don't know enough about it.

HMB appears to have some utility under certain circumstances that have been tested under controlled conditions. Other carefully controlled studies have failed to demonstrate an effect.

Something to be careful with here is that even if a study fails to demonstrate an effect, this is not proof that it does not have any.

Neither is it true that an individual self-selecting to try a substance and reporting a positive result is proof of efficacy.

The short answer with regard to HMB supplementation in healthy adult athletes is "we don't know". What we DO know is that HMB may be beneficial to people who are recovering from wasting disease, and that it is not dangerous in the dosing suggested in Results.

And I am still interested in a sugar-free product.

 

[soxmuscle]

Creatine Monohydrate, while tried and true, is no longer the best available creatine option IMO.

Even with a sugar free supplement, why pay top dollar for a mediocre supplement?

Gaspari Nutrition's SizeOn is cheaper and better for instance.

 

[TexanTA1996]

If I thought it ineffective I could remove it and sell the product for significantly less and still make the same profit margin. I would be an idiot not to do that as more people will buy an effective product which costs less, no? My business acumen is relatively ok.

Not quite. There are a ton of creatine/dextrose supplements out there that use a combination of these two well known supplements. While your product costs more, it has a certain edge that all those other products don't have-the HMB and Beta. While you still maintain the same profit margin, you sell more total units-which leads to an overall increase in profit.

Nobody would buy your product if it was creatine, dextrose and Beta-because all of those products can be bought dirt cheap, and the overhead costs you would incur from combining them into your mixture wouldn't allow you to sell very much volume-because your costs would increase to the point where it would be stupid to pay for your product because you'd have to charge a higher than normal cost for otherwise dirt cheap products.

Adding the HMB allows you to differentiate your product from others, and at the same time still charge a higher price than the separate ingredients purchased on their own.

 

[nni]

So basically,

through the studies that nni and built brought about in this thread, the BA and HMB are useless and monohydrate is an inferior creatine compared to other types?

no, not at all. BA is very good, as is creatine mono. HMB is what i question.

Creatine Monohydrate, while tried and true, is no longer the best available creatine option IMO.

Even with a sugar free supplement, why pay top dollar for a mediocre supplement?

Gaspari Nutrition's SizeOn is cheaper and better for instance.

sizeon is not mono, and has a lot more to it than carbs and creatine. creatine gluconate isnt necessarily superior to mono at all. thing is that mono is really the only creatine that is studied, all the other forms are just theory, and sexier to sell. this doesnt mean they dont work, studies exist, just none in comparison, so it is user results that make the difference.

 

[chris mason]

Not quite. There are a ton of creatine/dextrose supplements out there that use a combination of these two well known supplements. While your product costs more, it has a certain edge that all those other products don't have-the HMB and Beta. While you still maintain the same profit margin, you sell more total units-which leads to an overall increase in profit.

Nobody would buy your product if it was creatine, dextrose and Beta-because all of those products can be bought dirt cheap, and the overhead costs you would incur from combining them into your mixture wouldn't allow you to sell very much volume-because your costs would increase to the point where it would be stupid to pay for your product because you'd have to charge a higher than normal cost for otherwise dirt cheap products.

Adding the HMB allows you to differentiate your product from others, and at the same time still charge a higher price than the separate ingredients purchased on their own.

You are wrong. I don't know what else to tell you. What you say is "dirt cheap" is still sold at a profit. You are not in the industry (obviously) and therefore have no idea what the true cost of the individual ingredients are. Your conjecture is inaccurate and it is foolish of you to state it as though it were fact.

You can believe what you want, and do what you want, that will not alter the fact RESULTS is a fantastic supplement for size and strength. I must say that I find it amusing that the naysayers in this thread are doing so in the face of a fellow member who is hitting PRs right and left.

 

[chris mason]

Creatine Monohydrate, while tried and true, is no longer the best available creatine option IMO.

Even with a sugar free supplement, why pay top dollar for a mediocre supplement?

Gaspari Nutrition's SizeOn is cheaper and better for instance.

Well, your opinion is not that which is shared by some of the best research scientists in the business. Men like Jeff Volek. I recently asked him his thoughts on other forms of creatine and he simply said that monohydrate is what he would go with confirming my personal stance.

As for Gaspari's product vs. mine, you have no idea as you have never used my product? Give it a try and then voice your opinion.

 

[Built]

You are wrong. I don't know what else to tell you. What you say is "dirt cheap" is still sold at a profit. You are not in the industry (obviously) and therefore have no idea what the true cost of the individual ingredients are. Your conjecture is inaccurate and it is foolish of you to state it as though it were fact.

You can believe what you want, and do what you want, that will not alter the fact RESULTS is a fantastic supplement for size and strength. I must say that I find it amusing that the naysayers in this thread are doing so in the face of a fellow member who is hitting PRs right and left.

Creatine monohydrate is tried and true, and the only kind I ever use. Cheap and proven effective.

BA appears to have some positive attributes, but I honestly don't know enough about it.

HMB appears to have some utility under certain circumstances that have been tested under controlled conditions. Other carefully controlled studies have failed to demonstrate an effect.

Something to be careful with here is that even if a study fails to demonstrate an effect, this is not proof that it does not have any.

Neither is it true that an individual self-selecting to try a substance and reporting a positive result is proof of efficacy.

The short answer with regard to HMB supplementation in healthy adult athletes is "we don't know". What we DO know is that HMB may be beneficial to people who are recovering from wasting disease, and that it is not dangerous in the dosing suggested in Results.

And I am still interested in a sugar-free product.

 

[chris mason]

Nearly all power lifters who compete at a high level usually use gear. So somehow they're magically attributing PR's in the gym due to an over the counter supplement that doesn't have a single conclusive study behind the main ingredient... Does this fool anyone over the age of 12?

Lol, why say such things?

IF a powerlifter were on gear and the only change they made was to add a supplement and they then hit PRs to what would you attribute the progress?

Anyway, I am sorry you feel the way you do. You can continue with your life and all of the folks using and loving RESULTS will continue with theirs.