Religiously Intolerant?

[bio-chem]

it's the same thing as saying this is a pagan country because some of us are. it's false.

No it's not what a joke. Muslim countries have Christians. Israel has Jews, Christians, and Muslims. This does not mean that Iraq is not a Muslim state or that Israel isn't a Jewish one. We are a Christian nation, accept it. your life will be easier.

 

[DOMS]

Once again DOMS it is nice to see your personal touch with sound reason and logic

I have become quite displeased with how many people don't know jack about shit. In the pursuit of a quest so retarded that I can't even begin to fathom it, some Americans feel the need to sanctify the actions of people (such as the Palestinian) that routinely target women and children while at the same time, creating some warped perspective on "how bad the US is."

Since it's in this thread, take Little Wing's post for example. Her "we NEED police with guns to protect animals from abuses our people inflict on them" statement purposefully ignores that animal abuse goes on everywhere.

And then she links to a shit article on the US having the highest rates of child abuse. Good God, who writes that shit? Even more important, who the fuck believes that shit? Is a pro-sex ed piece that only references Canada as a comparative. The "author" never discusses the level of recording. (Case in point, in the UK, it not recorded as an infant mortality at child birth if the infant weighed less than 2 pounds. But in the US, it's recorded as such no matter the infant's weight. So boom, we have a much higher infant mortality.) It also ignores the rampant raping of children ages 3-11 in South African (the murder and rape capital of the planet). Or how about the horrifically enormous child slave trade in South-East Asia? How well recorded is child abuse there?

The article that she linked to had a very obvious agenda (they want sex ed. classes). It's almost inconceivable how many people accept false information like that.

I think the problem is that doing your own research takes more time and effort that reading a five paragraph article that you already agree with because it "makes your point."

 

[Little Wing]

christ is a myth. a fairy tale. a story made up to help people control other people. to try and explain the unknown and still fears that come in the night. accept it. your life will be easier.

 

[Little Wing]

I think the problem is that doing your own research takes more time and effort that reading a five paragraph article that you already agree with because it "makes your point."

then listen to what uniformed Israeli soldiers who are refusing orders have to say about the ethics of this war.

 

[bio-chem]

christ is a myth. a fairy tale. a story made up to help people control other people. to try and explain the unknown and still fears that come in the night. accept it. your life will be easier.

My life might be easier, but less happy and fulfilled.

 

[DOMS]

then listen to what uniformed Israeli soldiers who are refusing orders have to say about the ethics of this war.

Every modern war has produced soldiers that didn't want to fight it. Every. Single. One.

Set aside who started the war and who continues it. Instead, simply look at what each side does.

The Israelis target Hamas fighters who are hiding among civilians (on purpose). The Israelis target the Hamas fighters, which kills them and also kills the civilians that they're hiding behind. The civilians dies because Hamas uses them as shields and their deaths as a rallying.

Hamas purposefully targets civilians. They send in suicide bombers and rockets into places where there are no Israeli military personnel. They're not killing civilians because the Israeli military is hiding behind them, they do it because fighting the Isreali military is harding than killing unarmed civlians.

This is how the two side differ in a meaningful way, and why I hate the Palestinians.

No doubt you're going to come up with some assinine bit of logic that suppose to say it's okay for the Palestininans to do that. So come on, tell me why it's okay. Tell me what some random article on the Internet said. Tell me what the Washington Post said.

 

[Little Wing]

Every modern war has produced soldiers that didn't want to fight it. Every. Single. One.

Set aside who started the war and who continues it. Instead, simply look at what each side does.

The Israelis target Hamas fighters who are hiding among civilians (on purpose). The Israelis target the Hamas fighters, which kills them and also kills the civilians that they're hiding behind. The civilians dies because Hamas uses them as shields and their deaths as a rallying.

Hamas purposefully targets civilians. They send in suicide bombers and rockets into places where there are no Israeli military personnel. They're not killing civilians because the Israeli military is hiding behind them, they do it because fighting the Isreali military is harding than killing unarmed civlians.

This is how the two side differ in a meaningful way, and why I hate the Palestinians.

No doubt you're going to come up with some assinine bit of logic that suppose to say it's okay for the Palestininans to do that. So come on, tell me why it's okay. Tell me what some random article on the Internet said. Tell me what the Washington Post said.

i just wish they'd stop eye for an eyeing each other while some of their kids still have eyes.

 

[bio-chem]

i just wish they'd stop eye for an eyeing each other while some of their kids still have eyes.

so does everyone else on this board!

But anyone of us committing suicide over this issue will not stop it, or bring attention to it that isn't already there. this is simply a problem that does not get resolved.

 

[Little Wing]

sadly.

 

[maxpro2]

Pilgraims != Founding Fathers

 

[DOMS]

Pilgraims != Founding Fathers

Founding Fathers = Christians

 

[TexanTA1996]

I am surprised Mino didn't bring this up. I hope she doesn't have a selective vision.

In his inaugural address, President Barack Obama celebrated America as a "nation of Christian and Muslim, Jews and Hindus -and nonbelievers." Some Christians are taking issue with the approach to inclusiveness, saying the president misrepresented American culture and heritage.

What do you think? Please discuss.

Obama's Nonbeliever Nod Unsettles Some

The fact that religion is even mentioned during an inauguration is absolutely appalling to me.

SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE

There should be, in no way shape or form, any praying or religious talk during a presidential inauguration.

 

[DOMS]

The fact that religion is even mentioned during an inauguration is absolutely appalling to me.

SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE

There should be, in no way shape or form, any praying or religious talk during a presidential inauguration.

Many of the documents created at the founding of the country make mention of God. The US was founded by Christians in the pursuit of freedom of religion, not freedom from religion.

You keep for fighting for your baseless world and I'll fight for mine.

 

[bio-chem]

Many of the documents created at the founding of the country make mention of God. The US was founded by Christians in the pursuit of freedom of religion, not freedom from religion.

You keep for fighting for your baseless world and I'll fight for mine.

+1

 

[maxpro2]

Many of the documents created at the founding of the country make mention of God. The US was founded by Christians in the pursuit of freedom of religion, not freedom from religion.

And just how much talk of god is there in the Constitution?

Founding Fathers = Christians

Not quite.

 

[DOMS]

And just how much talk of god is there in the Constitution?

That document was the guidelines for the people. If you want the intent of the founding of the government of this land, you need to look at Declaration of Independence.

And I quote the first paragraph:

"When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation."

But feel free to delude yourself into thinking that their belief in God had nothing to do with it.

Not quite.

Unless you're into shit revisionist history.

 

[maxpro2]

That document was the guidelines for the people. If you want the intent of the founding of the government of this land, you need to look at Declaration of Independence.

And I quote the first paragraph:

"When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation."

But feel free to delude yourself into thinking that their belief in God had nothing to do with it.

Unless you're into shit revisionist history.

Educate yourself on Jefferson, Deism, and his thoughts on christianity and get back to me, k?

If the Declaration mentioned jesus, your argument might be more convincing. It doesn't. Read up.

 

[tallcall]

I had really hoped to not come out in support of Bio-Chem and DOMS, but I agree with them 99%. I still think if I were president I would have skipped a majority of the religious ceremonies and think they are a little superfelous.

The idea that we are intolerant of other religions is laughable. Looking at the middle east, southeast asia, and africa, you see nothing but absolute intolerance for just about all western governments (of which most are Christian or Christian based). If I'm not mistaken religions in those areas include Judiasm, Islam, Hinduism, Bhuddism, and various tribal religions, then there's also Palestines Christianity (they're not innocent in this either - but I think Hamas is Islamic).

Being a gay man, I can't say I would rather be anywhere else (maybe Canada, but I still don't think they're the best). Besides I love my boys in green serving in Iraq and Afghanistan and will do everything I can to help them. Note that I am in no way a Bush supporter or a supporter of the idea that not voting "conservative" or voting against any increase in war spending is unpatriotic or against the "troops."

Anyways, I'm sure everyone's got a valid point, but if I were stuck in the third world, I choose to be stuck with DOMS and Bio-Chem (I also want the Monkey, Jarhed, and Devildog - to name a few) - at least I know these guys would be on my side no matter what (and be able to make a damn good case for their arguments when we start fighting amongst ourselves - good debates are so hard to find these days).

 

[bio-chem]

I had really hoped to not come out in support of Bio-Chem and DOMS, but I agree with them 99%..

Everything about that post made me smile.

 

[bio-chem]

Educate yourself on Jefferson, Deism, and his thoughts on christianity and get back to me, k?

If the Declaration mentioned jesus, your argument might be more convincing. It doesn't. Read up.

I love the Jefferson debate. 1 guy out of all of the founders is what you point to? Jefferson, Adams, and Franklin all wrote God into the Declaration of Independence for a reason. Jefferson believed in God, he believed in Jesus. He absolutely studied the bible. he had his concerns about the way things were practiced in his day, but so did guys like calvin and luther in theirs. that doesn't mean he didn't believe in God or wasn't Christian. To insinuate otherwise shows a severe lack of understanding. and as DOMS says revisionist history.

 

[tallcall]

Everything about that post made me smile.

I luv u guyz !


I forgot to mention Busy-Livin in my last post. I would like him to accompany the five of us on our little Crusade through the third world!

 

[tallcall]

I love the Jefferson debate. 1 guy out of all of the founders is what you point to? Jefferson, Adams, and Franklin all wrote God into the Declaration of Independence for a reason. Jefferson believed in God, he believed in Jesus. He absolutely studied the bible. he had his concerns about the way things were practiced in his day, but so did guys like calvin and luther in theirs. that doesn't mean he didn't believe in God or wasn't Christian. To insinuate otherwise shows a severe lack of understanding. and as DOMS says revisionist history.

People should learn from history not attempt to re-write it. It may be written by the victors and be thus biased but it is the best record we have to go by.

 

[DOMS]

I love the Jefferson debate. 1 guy out of all of the founders is what you point to? Jefferson, Adams, and Franklin all wrote God into the Declaration of Independence for a reason. Jefferson believed in God, he believed in Jesus. He absolutely studied the bible. he had his concerns about the way things were practiced in his day, but so did guys like calvin and luther in theirs. that doesn't mean he didn't believe in God or wasn't Christian. To insinuate otherwise shows a severe lack of understanding. and as DOMS says revisionist history.

He's not interested in real history. He's interested in whatever revisionist history back his world views.

 

[bio-chem]

He's not interested in real history. He's interested in whatever revisionist history back his world views.

I love how these guys point to Jefferson every single time while completely ignoring Washington, Adams, and the other founders that attended church every sunday. How many times is it recorded that Washington prayed?

 

[DOMS]

I had really hoped to not come out in support of Bio-Chem and DOMS, but I agree with them 99%. I still think if I were president I would have skipped a majority of the religious ceremonies and think they are a little superfelous.

The idea that we are intolerant of other religions is laughable. Looking at the middle east, southeast asia, and africa, you see nothing but absolute intolerance for just about all western governments (of which most are Christian or Christian based). If I'm not mistaken religions in those areas include Judiasm, Islam, Hinduism, Bhuddism, and various tribal religions, then there's also Palestines Christianity (they're not innocent in this either - but I think Hamas is Islamic).

Being a gay man, I can't say I would rather be anywhere else (maybe Canada, but I still don't think they're the best). Besides I love my boys in green serving in Iraq and Afghanistan and will do everything I can to help them. Note that I am in no way a Bush supporter or a supporter of the idea that not voting "conservative" or voting against any increase in war spending is unpatriotic or against the "troops."

Anyways, I'm sure everyone's got a valid point, but if I were stuck in the third world, I choose to be stuck with DOMS and Bio-Chem (I also want the Monkey, Jarhed, and Devildog - to name a few) - at least I know these guys would be on my side no matter what (and be able to make a damn good case for their arguments when we start fighting amongst ourselves - good debates are so hard to find these days).

The UK is also a place that you'd be comfortable. Hell, they have gay knights. Yeah, I know it sounds like a Monty Python skit, but Elton John was knighted long ago.

Americans love to dump on themselves. I think it's because we hold ourselves to a higher standard. The problem is that many Americans have lost perspective on what the standards are around most of the world.

Case in point tallcall, here you can't get married, but in the Middle East you'd be killed.

 

[bio-chem]

The UK is also a place that you'd be comfortable. Hell, they have gay knights. Yeah, I know it sounds like a Monty Python skit, but Elton John was knighted long ago.

.

 

[PainandGain]

Many of the documents created at the founding of the country make mention of God. The US was founded by Christians in the pursuit of freedom of religion, not freedom from religion.

You keep for fighting for your baseless world and I'll fight for mine.

This post deserves some kind of medal.

 

[tallcall]

The UK is also a place that you'd be comfortable. Hell, they have gay knights. Yeah, I know it sounds like a Monty Python skit, but Elton John was knighted long ago.

Americans love to dump on themselves. I think it's because we hold ourselves to a higher standard. The problem is that many Americans have lost perspective on what the standards are around most of the world.

Case in point tallcall, here you can't get married, but in the Middle East you'd be killed.

Have you ever seen Generation Kill? Lt Col 'Godfather' Ferrando says at one point when asked to evacuate 2 wounded Iraqi's that the rules state that they have to recieve care comprable to local standards and he says "the standards here are zero, but nobody put a gun to our heads and told us to come here.” Sometimes the standards are just that, "zero."

 

[maniclion]

I love the Jefferson debate. 1 guy out of all of the founders is what you point to? Jefferson, Adams, and Franklin all wrote God into the Declaration of Independence for a reason. Jefferson believed in God, he believed in Jesus. He absolutely studied the bible. he had his concerns about the way things were practiced in his day, but so did guys like calvin and luther in theirs. that doesn't mean he didn't believe in God or wasn't Christian. To insinuate otherwise shows a severe lack of understanding. and as DOMS says revisionist history.

Franklin was a Deist and was a skeptic of how Christianity was practiced in his time. Another name, the one I believe to be the sole reason we struck out for independence was Thomas Paine the man who wrote that he thought the Bible being gods word was absurd, and that if we really wanted to see gods word all we needed to do was study the trees, rocks, birds and the sky beyond in them we could find all the truth god wanted us to know....he, like myself and some of the others right here in this forum, had concluded that if everyone believed in God and the basis of their religions were to do good then why were we killing one another in his name? He just was sick of the many sects fighting and murdering one another against the true tenets of their faith.....proof is here in this letter from Paine to Samuel Adams

"The case my friend is, that the World has been over-run with fable and creeds of human invention, with sectaries of whole Nations against all other Nations, and sectaries of those sectaries in each of them against each other. Every sectary, except the quakers, has been a persecutor. Those who fled from persecution persecuted in their turn, and it is this confusion of creeds that has filled the World with persecution and deluged it with blood. Even the depredation on your commerce by the barbary powers sprang from the Crusades of the church against those powers. It was a war of creed against creed, each boasting of God for its author, and reviling each other with the name of Infidel. If I do not believe as you believe, it proves that you do not believe as I believe, and this is all that it proves. There is however one point of Union wherein all religions meet, and that is in the first article of every Man's Creed, and of every Nation's Creed, that has any Creed at all: 'I believe in God.' Those who rest here, and there are millions who do, cannot be wrong as far as their Creed goes. Those who chouse to go further may be wrong, for it is impossible that all can be right, since there is so much contradiction among them. The first therefore are, in my opinion, on the safest side.
I presume you are so far acquainted with ecclesiastical history as to know, and the bishop who has answered me has been obliged to acknowledge the fact, that the books that compose the New Testament were voted by 'Yeas and Nays' to be the Word of God, as you now vote a law, by the popish Councils of Nice and Laodocia about 1450 years ago. With respect to the fact there is no dispute, neither do I mention it for the sake of controversy. This Vote may appear authority enough to some, and not authority enough to others. It is proper however that everybody should know the fact."

 

[KelJu]

Many of the documents created at the founding of the country make mention of God. The US was founded by Christians in the pursuit of freedom of religion, not freedom from religion.

You keep for fighting for your baseless world and I'll fight for mine.

You are missing the point completely. Yes, they came here for religious freedom, but not the freedom to follow only their religion. The colonies were made up of many religions. They came here to ge taway from state sponsored religion such as the Church of England. For fuck's sake, 3 of the signers of the Declaration of Independence weren't Christians. Thomas Jefferson became president, and did a pretty damn good job. Benjamin Franklin did more to win our independence from the British than any other man in our nations history, and he was a deist who spoke out adamantly about religious intolerance. That notion of religious tolerance is the core of separation of church and state.

To keep all religious practices and liberties free and pure, the government must not get involved under any circumstances. It keeps everyone on a level playing field. That is the price of freedom. You don't get to legislate laws based on your religion, and nobody else can legislate laws against you based on their religion.

That is why so many people came here. That is why the greatest minds came here. That is why America has flourished and succeeded.

The constitution mentions God, but it never ever ever ever ever differentiated who's God. The founding fathers recognized the importance of spiritual practice, and the right of humans to practice their beliefs on their own terms. The colonies had everything from Quakers to Protestants to Puritans to Baptists to Catholics to probably 10 others that I don't know. Religious diversity was a dominant part of colonial life.

But 200 and some odd years years later, you are going to tell me that the founding fathers intended Christians to have all the power? That is ridiculous. They went to great efforts to prevent that. They new that down the line some new religion might pop up and then it would be a dominate power. Then there would be no fail safes to prevent that religion from taking over.