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Questions about cardio,

freshtodeath

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So after doing some extensive research on the forum, I now know that the key to getting ripped is diet not cardio. I know when you do cardio you risk losing muscle, I'd like to keep up with my cardio but try to retain as much muscle as possible. I've been told swimming is the best for this, is this true?
 
What are your goals?


That aside, if it really was the case that swimming was the best form of cardio for 'keeping up cardio to retain as much muscle mass as possible,' for what reason would that be?
 
Well the reason why I would like to keep up my cardio is for overall health, but I wouldn't want to lose muscle or size. I know that swimming is great since it has no impact on your joints, but my question is do you burn muscle like if I were to run long distances?
 
You won't automatically burn off all your muscle if you run - not if you eat enough and avoid overtraining.
 
Running long distances usually leads to big increases in hunger. If you're trying to cut keep this in mind. It also burns a lot of calories and is difficult on the joints. Make sure your running form is good, you have proper shoes, and you run on soft surfaces semi-regularly.

I would try to stay away from cardio while on a cut for the simple reason that the amount of calories I burn from the cardio usually isn't the same as the amount I take in due to extra hunger.
 
I'm with you there, bud. Running makes me hungry as hell - and it really doesn't burn that many calories. Not worth it.
 
ok, so I've concluded that running might not be the best solution. How about swimming? or is cardio just simply cardio and it all has the same effect?
 
Well hang on here. What do you want the cardio for - general conditioning? Because if that's the case, just eat enough to compensate.
 
Use it for stamina, but don't think about the calorie reduction too much. Get that part from your diet.
 
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I don't think it's this simple. It can sometimes make a significant enough difference in terms of calories. For me, the difference between not doing any cardio and doing cardio is about an extra pound of fat lost each month. So to me, that is significant enough for me to do it. Maybe it wouldn't be significant enough for other but it is for me.

Here's how that works out. You only want to go so far with your deficit. Say you determine that 25% is as much of a deficit as you are going to do. If you burn 3000 cals in a day on average, that is a reduction of 750 calories. So let's say you then add in cardio and your total calories need (TDEE for short) ends up being 3400 cals per day on average when you factor in the amount of calories burned during the exercise plus the increased metabolism after. Then a 25% reduction of that would be 850 calories. So without increasing your deficit percentage, you are taking out an extra 100 calories per day. After 30 days that is 3000 calories (nearly a pound)!! It adds up.

Also, I think your body is better able to handle a deficit when you are doing cardio so you may be less inclined to enter starvation mode. I'm not sure on that but I could have swore I read that somewhere. Anyone else heard this before?
 
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I haven't heard that about swimming but I suppose that could be true. I have actually switched over to swimming for my cardio (was jogging) and for me, the swimming is better for several reasons:

1) It burns way more calories than my jogging was
2) It's much easier on the joints
3) I am not sweating my ass off anymore
4) It's actually kind of fun
5) Hot chicks in bikinis

If you do decide to do swimming, make sure you know how. I got in the pool all cocky my first day of swimming, thinking well I can run 45 minutes straight no problem so this swimming thing won't be a big deal. After about 5 minutes I was so tired I could barely move my arms! If you can't swim properly you'll waste all your energy right off the bat just flailing around like a mad man. So I'm in swimming lessons now...
 
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The problem with your logic is that increases in appetite often go along with increases in cardiovascular activity. Often the amount of energy used during the cardiovascular activity is less than the extra energy (calories) consumed because of increased appetite.

If you monitor your intake and can control your appetite while doing cardio, I see no problem with it. But I know (as a person who enjoys swimming and swims often during the school year) that I'd be miserable doing swimming workouts while running a deficit.
 
Yes, I read the point about appetite above and probably should have addressed that as well. Think about this: If you ate celery for ALL your calories, you would have to eat like 50 pounds of celery and would be so full that you are puking! Some foods fill you up more than other foods. As another example, wheat bread will fill you up much faster than white bread.

If you find yourself hungry all the time, you should alter the food you eat so that you are not hungry. I eat at as much as a 25% deficit, go to the gym nearly every day and don't really ever get that hungry and don't really get cravings either. This is because I eat super clean food and keep insulin levels stable.

Keeping stable insulin levels will keep you from getting cravings and going nuts. That means eat complex carbs like oats, wheat bread, basmati rice, etc. rather than white rice, white bread, etc. Also be careful with fruit. A little fruit is okay but you don't want to go nuts with it since this is a simple carb. Orange juice for instance would be out of the question but an orange would be okay.

So that is how I would get around the problem if it even is a problem. It has not been an issue for me and I have been on a deficit for over half a year now.
 
See, that works great for you gigaplex, and it's awesome that it does. If I ate this way while trying to cut, I'd be chewing my arm off. You really need to pay attention to your own satiety cues - they can be very individual.
 
Sure, they can be individual but there is a normal range too. I have seen dozens of people do the same/similar nutrition plan as me and none of them has had any major problems with hunger. If there is any problem related to hunger, it has always been the opposite: they have problems eating all the food (even on a deficit, even with cardio). Maybe someone with a strange medical problem would get hungry but the vast majority of the population is going to be fine.

Your point about paying attention to your own hunger is valid - you certainly should. All I'm saying is that hunger can be understood and controlled like many other factors. There's no need to cut cardio out because of hunger. If a person is hungry all the time then there is likely something wrong with their diet.
 
I disagree with your last point.

From Lyle McD himself:

Q: WHY is the combination of high intensity and/or long duration activity a mistake when calories are being severely restricted?

A: Here's a precis on some of what's going on:

As someone else pointed out, the body seeks homeostsasis and it is very good at fighting back in terms of fat loss.

Moreso for women's bodies than men.

So what's up with the high intensity thing and fat loss especially in the context of hardcore caloric restriction?

A few things to consider
1. What is burned (calorically or energetically) during activity is only part of the equation, of more relevance is that happens the other 23-24 hours of the day. Sometimes, when people try to train intensely and this is magnified on low calorie diets, it means that they compensate elsewhere during the day for their activity. Why? Because they are tired.

And you tend to be more tired from high intensity stuff. So you do less later in the day. If training too intensely for that 30-45 minute span (and say you burn 25% more calories) means that you sit around more for the other hours that you're awake (burning 30% less calories), that can more than compensate for what you did in training.

The problem is that folks are overfocusing only on the calorie burn of that activity itself when there are other important factors at work. Who cares if you burned 200 more calories during activity if it means that you sit around so much later in the day that you burn 300 less?

Note: numbers are being used for illustration, don't read too much into them.

2. There are also clear hormonal effects. I've talked about leptin endlessly on the site so I'm not retyping it here. Just note that in the original PSMF + lots of cardio study,they noted a larger drop in metabolic rate with the addition of lots of cardio compared to without and that's why I made the suggestions that I made in the book.

Essentially, the body senses caloric availability which is simply intake - output and that determines a lot of what's going on. Women's bodies seem to respond generally more greatly to shifts in this dynamic with negative adaptations. So the combo is probably relatlively worse for them than for men (although neither group does particuarly well with it, women just do worse).

Cortisol is another biggie. Excessive activity, and this is magnified with large caloric deficits, raises cortisol and this has a number of potentially negative effects.

Here are two:

a. Water retention: cortisol binds to the mineralocorticoid receptor (the receptor involved in water retention, well one of them). And although cortsiol has like 1/100th of the effect on water balance of the primary hormones (aldosterone and a cople of others), since there is like 8000 times as much of it it can cause a major effect.

I strongly believe that a lot of the 'metabolic magic' that some people are reporting (e.g. weight loss not scaling with anything logical) is simply water retention. Why do I think this? Because invariably when you get those folks to chill out,and either raise calories or cut activity, the problem goes away. There can also be subclinical thyroid problems present in a lot of women and that too causes water retention.

And, as you'd expect, some women are relatively more or less prone to this.

Consider that, for women under normal circumstances, water shifts over the cycle can be up to 10 pounds. I'm sure some woman go through more while some clearly go through less. That alone can mask fat loss. A woman who should be losing 2 lbs/week would have that fat loss masked for 5+ weeks. On a more moderate 1 lb/week, it would take 10+ weeks for the fat loss to show up against that water balance issue.

Now add to that the stress of hard dieting and excessive high-intensity training. The problem is magnified because this will raise cortisol that much more. I ranted and raved about this in the interval vs. steady state series on teh main site, I'd suggest reading that. But I see dieters trying to follow training programs that no elite athlete could recover from. And the elite athlete is eating enough.

As well, some people have a personality type that can only be described as 'wound a little tight'. They are chronic stress cases under normal circumstances, they are the ones that tend to respond to weird things like a lack of weight loss by 'getting really stressed out about it' and trying to work harder. These folks already tend to overproduce cortisol and it JUST GETS WORSE when they try to do too much activity with too little food.

b. Excessive cortisol, especially chronic elevations cause other problems not the least of which is leptin resistance. Which only magnifies the drop in leptin from dieting. This could be another mechanism behind the greater drop in metaoblic rate for the study I mentioned above.

The bottom line, simply is this: the combination of excessive deficits and either too much or too intense activity doesn't work for the majority. The why is interesting, do'nt get me wrong; at the end of the day, the practical implications are what's important here IMO.

Also read this study on the effects of exercise on leptin expression and serum letpin levels: Voluntary wheel running decreases adipose tissue mass and expression of leptin mRNA in osborne-mendel rats
 
The question in the Q&A snippet you posted clearly states that it is about the combination of cardio and a SEVERE caloric deficit. Whether you are doing cardio or not, you will lower your metabolism on a severe caloric deficit. So yes, with the cardio it's bad but without the cardio... it's still bad! So figuring out which of these two things is worse seems like a pointless activity. What would it prove either way? Why would you do either one?

Also, this should be obvious but I feel as though I have to say it. If you all of a sudden start doing cardio, you need to then EAT MORE CALORIES. If you keep your calories the same and started doing cardio then you could end up at a deficit that is far greater than before and if it is too much this WOULD decrease your metabolism and you WOULD be worse off. Perhaps this is how people get this strange (and false) idea that doing cardio is a sure fire way to decrease metabolism while on a deficit. It is simply not true.
 
I don't think it's this simple. It can sometimes make a significant enough difference in terms of calories. For me, the difference between not doing any cardio and doing cardio is about an extra pound of fat lost each month. So to me, that is significant enough for me to do it. Maybe it wouldn't be significant enough for other but it is for me.

How are you determining this is fat per month, and not just weight? i.e. water, muscle....?
 
Swimming

Swimming is an amazing cardio workout. The thing is instead of just doing freestyle for laps, mix it up. Do a 100 (25 yd pool) of butterfly, then a 100 of backstroke, 100 of breaststroke, and a 100 of freestyle. If you are not comfortable with these strokes, you can ask for help, or just take it slow. If you know you cannot do that much, start with a smaller distance.

Also, if you are not looking to lose muscle but get cardio in, do some circuit training. For example, perform an exercise like say Med. Ball Slams, then run to another part of the gym, do another exercise, and make sure to keep your heart rate up, that way you are getting your cardio and weight training in as well. This way you can perform four or five exercises in a circuit, and you can mix it up along the way. A good basis for this kind of circuit training is to keep an upper/lower, push/pull method. So you would do a upper body push, lower body pull, upper body pull, and lower body push. When one circuit is done take a 2-3 minute break, and repeat.
 
After a few more swimming lessons, I plan on doing the following plan to get up to where I can swim a mile:

0to1650

It sounds very doable.
 
How? DEXA? BodPod? Calipers? Crappy electro-scale?

At first, I had professionals do it with calipers and they proved unreliable (didn't always get same person) so I started doing it myself. At first I was so fat I had to use the rope and choke method because calipers were just too inaccurate. Then I started getting skinny enough that the rope and choke method was not accurate enough and so I started doing caliper measurements (non-digital accumeasure) in addition and I go by the caliper measurements now.

The measurements are not really used to figure out my exact body fat % but rather to give me a consistent weekly measurement that I can use to make decisions off of the trend of the data (rather than week to week change). As far as my actual body fat % goes though, I think it is in the ball park.
 
At first, I had professionals do it with calipers and they proved unreliable (didn't always get same person) so I started doing it myself. At first I was so fat I had to use the rope and choke method because calipers were just too inaccurate. Then I started getting skinny enough that the rope and choke method was not accurate enough and so I started doing caliper measurements (non-digital accumeasure) in addition and I go by the caliper measurements now.

The measurements are not really used to figure out my exact body fat % but rather to give me a consistent weekly measurement that I can use to make decisions off of the trend of the data (rather than week to week change). As far as my actual body fat % goes though, I think it is in the ball park.

Ah see but there's the trick. Does your diet/training remain consistent? Do you measure during the same times of the month?

I can tell you that for me, I can have my calipers fluctuate millimeters without changing bodyfat at all. I can do that by reglycogenating which in turn makes you store more water. In fact I've gained 12-14 lbs over 1 WEEK (started a bulk, went from 168 --> 180). Is that all fat/muscle? No, only maybe 2-3lbs are actual fat or muscle, the rest is all water and glycogen that wasn't there before. If I measured skinfold right now it would probably be horribly wrong.
 
^ I'm with the others here - assume you neither gain nor lose lean mass from this point forward and just trust the process. Anything else is an exercise in futility.
 
Ah see but there's the trick. Does your diet/training remain consistent? Do you measure during the same times of the month?

I can tell you that for me, I can have my calipers fluctuate millimeters without changing bodyfat at all. I can do that by reglycogenating which in turn makes you store more water. In fact I've gained 12-14 lbs over 1 WEEK (started a bulk, went from 168 --> 180). Is that all fat/muscle? No, only maybe 2-3lbs are actual fat or muscle, the rest is all water and glycogen that wasn't there before. If I measured skinfold right now it would probably be horribly wrong.

Yes, it does remain consistent. I measure myself at the same time on the same day of every week, drink about the same amount of water, even eat the same exact food everyday. I zigzag so one measurement day I might have 500 more cals than another measurement day but this is really the only variance.
 
^ I'm with the others here - assume you neither gain nor lose lean mass from this point forward and just trust the process. Anything else is an exercise in futility.

Wow, I can't believe I'm hearing this. This is the trademark of all crappy diets. It's a red flag. Throw science to the wind and just BELIEVE. Put your blind faith in something and just hope that it's working. If it's some kind of extreme diet where your water weight is shifting drastically from week to week, measurements really will be futile. And we always have to do the extreme don't we? Let's find the weirdest diet out there with the coolest tagline and then we'll just all believe in it until it comes true. Why is there such a strong tendency to do this?

So what is it? What is the latest fad diet people here are following? There has got to be something warping your mind if your going to sit here and say, don't do measurements, don't use facts and data, just have blind faith. If something goes wrong, how will you know? How will you know how to adjust your diet if you take no measurements. You seem to be advocating guesswork so if that's the situation then the diet's going to work for a few by mere chance and not work for most. That is how the usual fad diet pans out. And everybody failing at the diet will just look to the person who it happened to work for by chance or genetics and think they must be doing something wrong. People eventually get frustrated enough that they switch to a new fad diet and the cycle repeats.

Me, I like facts and data rather than blind faith and I don't fall for fad diets. Since I know what I'm doing and am not on some whacko diet, it is not an exercise in futility for me to use a scientific approach. Just because you don't know how to do something doesn't mean it's impossible. Maybe it means you have a few things to learn.
 
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