Advice on a 13 week personal challenge

[jmorrison]

Ah gotcha, sorry, nothing personal, I guess it just sounded strange to me! I wasnt thinking about butt involvement, I was thinking about the measurement straight around the hip bones No offense to those blessed with butt!

 

[phoenix05]

Ah gotcha, sorry, nothing personal, I guess it just sounded strange to me! I wasnt thinking about butt involvement, I was thinking about the measurement straight around the hip bones No offense to those blessed with butt!

I was a bit off in my first measurements, but it wasn't far off. I had to go check a few times to make sure i didn't have it all wrong.

I hate to say it but I'm getting more and more confused right now. I've been reading up as much as i can on diet, and resistance programs, as well as which cardio is best for me.

I know it's not the same for everyone, so i guess it isn't going to be that easy, but i'd like to be able to get it all set and start ASAP and it's going to take a bit longer to get set up than i though.

I'd still like people's opinions on what i should be doing while I'm reading up on everything though!

 

[jbish8]

No problem JMorrison.
Phoenix, you've gotten some pretty solid advice already. I would just add that I agree you should cut if your trying to look good for your trip. You won't add size , but you'll be suprised how much bigger you LOOK when you get ripped. It may actually solve your whole proportion problem. If not, then you can always start bulking. As far as the cardio issue, Built has a article on her blog called "how to do cardio if you must" that is good. I've also seen a couple other articles that teach the same basic principles. Basically the best way to do cardio (according to the experts above), is to include a combination of both HIIT and LISS. It makes sense to me. Simply do HIIT for 5-10 min. followed by LISS for 15-30 min. after. Do this 2-4 times per week and preferably avoid doing this on the same day you work your legs. There's more to it than this but this is a basic summary. Make sure to keep your volume low and intensity high with resistance work while you're cutting and as far as your macros go, it doesn't matter a whole lot what they are other than getting at least 1-1.5g of protein per lb of lean mass and roughly .5g of good fats per lb of lean mass. Really, aside from this any other changes to macros should all be about satieity as it will only work if you can comfortably stick to it. I cut down to the 5% range eating over 300 carbs per day but carbs don't make me hungry like they do some here. Most important thing to remember is cals. in vs. cals. out so find your maintainance and eat 500 less cals. per week for every lb you want to lose. Good luck.

 

[phoenix05]

No problem JMorrison.
Phoenix, you've gotten some pretty solid advice already. I would just add that I agree you should cut if your trying to look good for your trip. You won't add size , but you'll be suprised how much bigger you LOOK when you get ripped. It may actually solve your whole proportion problem. If not, then you can always start bulking.

Yep i think this is the way I'm going to go. I've started a resistance program that I'll do until i can get a better one from here. I have a lot of reading to do until i can figure out which routine to do. I'm getting a little confused and there is a lot of information to get through!

As far as the cardio issue, Built has a article on her blog called "how to do cardio if you must" that is good. I've also seen a couple other articles that teach the same basic principles. Basically the best way to do cardio (according to the experts above), is to include a combination of both HIIT and LISS. It makes sense to me. Simply do HIIT for 5-10 min. followed by LISS for 15-30 min. after. Do this 2-4 times per week and preferably avoid doing this on the same day you work your legs. There's more to it than this but this is a basic summary.

I have read that article, and it's going to be something i start this week and see how i go. If it doesn't work to my expectations then I'll try the low intensity stuff after that.

Make sure to keep your volume low and intensity high with resistance work while you're cutting and as far as your macros go, it doesn't matter a whole lot what they are other than getting at least 1-1.5g of protein per lb of lean mass and roughly .5g of good fats per lb of lean mass. Really, aside from this any other changes to macros should all be about satieity as it will only work if you can comfortably stick to it. I cut down to the 5% range eating over 300 carbs per day but carbs don't make me hungry like they do some here. Most important thing to remember is cals. in vs. cals. out so find your maintainance and eat 500 less cals. per week for every lb you want to lose. Good luck.

The diet part is starting to get to me a little. The reason i liked the previous diet, is because it's something that i could stick to fairly easy. I'm a hopeless cook, and absolutely hate the kitchen, so a simple easy to make diet is one I'm after.


There just seems to be a lot of stuff out there, and it's awfully difficult to get it all sorted. I have the cardio i want to try, so now I'm just going to try and find the diet i can stick to, and a resistance program that suits what I'm after. After doing loads of reading lately i feel like I'm not much closer!

 

[jbish8]

The diet part is starting to get to me a little. The reason i liked the previous diet, is because it's something that i could stick to fairly easy. I'm a hopeless cook, and absolutely hate the kitchen, so a simple easy to make diet is one I'm after.
There just seems to be a lot of stuff out there, and it's awfully difficult to get it all sorted. I have the cardio i want to try, so now I'm just going to try and find the diet i can stick to, and a resistance program that suits what I'm after. After doing loads of reading lately i feel like I'm not much closer!

For the diet, I don't know how to say it any more simply than I already have. Don't over think it. Just start with the minimum macros I already stated and start tweaking things from there to fit your own satiety. You're the only one that will be able to determine what is best. Just make sure and keep to the minimum protein and fat, and eat more than maintainence to gain weight or less to cut weight. You shouldn't need to worry about anything else unless you try to get to sub 10% ranges. As far as what to eat, my staples are Boneless skinless chicken or turkey breast, eggs, whey protein, tuna, cottage cheese, oats, brown rice, whole wheat breads and tortillas, almonds, natural PB, olive oil, both starchy and fibrous veggies, (love black beans, yams and potatoes, broccolli and spinach) and fruit (not juice). Yes, there are a ton more good foods, but you wanted easy, so just get your own favs. down and then find different ways to combine or prepare them to break the monotony and it doesn't get any simpler.

 

[phoenix05]

For the diet, I don't know how to say it any more simply than I already have. Don't over think it. Just start with the minimum macros I already stated and start tweaking things from there to fit your own satiety. You're the only one that will be able to determine what is best. Just make sure and keep to the minimum protein and fat, and eat more than maintainence to gain weight or less to cut weight. You shouldn't need to worry about anything else unless you try to get to sub 10% ranges. As far as what to eat, my staples are Boneless skinless chicken or turkey breast, eggs, whey protein, tuna, cottage cheese, oats, brown rice, whole wheat breads and tortillas, almonds, natural PB, olive oil, both starchy and fibrous veggies, (love black beans, yams and potatoes, broccolli and spinach) and fruit (not juice). Yes, there are a ton more good foods, but you wanted easy, so just get your own favs. down and then find different ways to combine or prepare them to break the monotony and it doesn't get any simpler.

Thanks. After i posted I read a bunch of stuff from the nutrition section so I'm basically up to speed with that now. I think i have it all broken down now, so i will go for a shop this week and get started.

Looking into the resistance stuff now.


I'm guessing something along the lines of:

3 days a week, reps 6-12, 3 sets, and rest for 60-90 secs

Day 1:
Bench press
Dips
Incline Press
Shoulder press

Day 2:
Cardio

Day 3:

Close grip chin up
Bent over row
Lat pull down
Shrugs
Cable row

Day 4:
Cardio

Day 5:

Squat
Deadlift
Step Ups

Day 6:
Rest

Day 7:
Cardio

That's about where I'm at right now. I know it's not even close to being ready yet, but that's my starting point and what I'll work off for now. This is a start anyway.

 

[jmorrison]

As Jbish stated, don't overthink the diet. Just track calories in vs calories out and you will be fine for weight loss. Leave the more complex diets for when you are trying to get sub 12%. A regular ol' deficit will get you there no problem, and will be easier for you to follow.

 

[phoenix05]

Does anyone have any advice on the above weights program? I'd like to get started on something similar as soon as possible, and it feels like the above is a bit short on some things.

 

[jmorrison]

I have been using something similiar during my cut. Using mainly 3x8 sets/reps with a weight that is very hard to complete the third set with.

Personally I wouldn't combine deads with squats, but that's just me. Both of those pretty much wipe me out. I do RDL's on squat days, but regular deads I do on upper pull day.

The workout may seem easy to you on paper, or lacking, but keep in mind that you will be running a caloric deficit and these will tire you out. Resistance training during a cut is not to get big per se (although you may gain a little LBM if you havent been in the gym for a while) so much as it is to convince your body that you need the muscle and not to eat it when it's looking for food.

These workouts should be short and intense. While cutting I keep my weight training to less than an hour, usually in the 45 minute range.

Also, I see you are doing cardio 3 x week. This may work great for you, but I know that personally 3 HIIT days a week would flat out kill me. I keep it to 2 days of HIIT weekly myself. Keep in mind that the fat loss you experience is from diet, not from the cardio.

 

[phoenix05]

Ok i have a program that i want to start on Monday and was hoping i could get a bit more advice on how i could improve it.

3 days a week, reps 6-10, 3 sets, and rest for 60-90 secs

Day 1:
Bench press
Dips
Incline Bench Press
Shoulder press
deadlift
dumbbell pullover
tricep pushdown

Day 2:
Cardio

Day 3:
Close grip chin up
Lat pull down
Shrugs
Cable seated row
Lat Raise
Dumbbell curl

Day 4:
Cardio

Day 5:

Squat
Step Ups
Leg curl
leg press
Lunges

Day 6:
Rest

Day 7:
Cardio


Am i missing anything? Should i change anything? Compared to the program i listed back on the first page, is this better? Can i expect good results from this or is there lots i need to change?

Thanks for all the help. I have the diet going well, so this is really the only part that I'm struggling with getting settled now.

Thanks!

 

[P-funk]

Less is more.

patrick

 

[T_man]

I actually would avoid HIIT if you have muscle mass and want to preserve it. If you diet hard, cut cals severly, and workout heavy a couple times a week AND do HIIT you are going to eat away muscle. Steady state cardio would be fine. And to be honest, if you set up your diet and deficit correctly, that will do most of the fat burning work, not cardio...especially at your BF level.

Lots of people have differing opinions on HIIT though. My two cents.

KY

Sprinters do HIIT. Long distance runners do steady state.

Is there a difference in physiques?? Your can work that out yourself.

 

[phoenix05]

I'll definitely be doing some HIIT during this. Maybe not 3 days a week, but i'll aim for at least two and see how i go.

It's been a bit over a week since i started the diet, and I've dropped a further kilogram so I'm happy about that so far. I expect i have around 9-10kg's to go before I'm bellow 15% so still quite a ways left.

P-Funk i'm guessing by your cryptic message you believe i should have less in those workouts? Care to explain which ones? I'm thinking on days 1 and 3 may be a little much, but day 5 looks good. I did the day 5 workout on friday, but added in some side lunges and calf raises and it seemed ok. It certainly killed me, but it didn't seem overboard. I haven't been able to walk since, but that was my first leg workout in months.

For the last two weeks i have been using a program that has 2 or 3 more exercises in it and it seemed ok, so i thought this would be a reasonable one to go with.

Or are you indicating that doing 3 days resistance and 3 days cardio is too much. As i said earlier that's probably a bit of a pipe dream to be doing 3 ays of each, but i will be aiming for two and seeing how i go.

Thanks again!

 

[T_man]

I'll definitely be doing some HIIT during this. Maybe not 3 days a week, but i'll aim for at least two and see how i go.

It's been a bit over a week since i started the diet, and I've dropped a further kilogram so I'm happy about that so far. I expect i have around 9-10kg's to go before I'm bellow 15% so still quite a ways left.

P-Funk i'm guessing by your cryptic message you believe i should have less in those workouts? Care to explain which ones? I'm thinking on days 1 and 3 may be a little much, but day 5 looks good. I did the day 5 workout on friday, but added in some side lunges and calf raises and it seemed ok. It certainly killed me, but it didn't seem overboard. I haven't been able to walk since, but that was my first leg workout in months.

For the last two weeks i have been using a program that has 2 or 3 more exercises in it and it seemed ok, so i thought this would be a reasonable one to go with.

Or are you indicating that doing 3 days resistance and 3 days cardio is too much. As i said earlier that's probably a bit of a pipe dream to be doing 3 ays of each, but i will be aiming for two and seeing how i go.

Thanks again!

You should not kill yourself. You're not consuming enough calories to properly recover & repair so you will be losing that muscle by killing yourself. Merkaba once made a famous quote "Stimulate, not Annhialate".

Things like lat pulldown. They aren't the best exercises but if you're doing chins then you don't need lat pulldowns, especially on a cut where you're trying to just stimulate your muscle. Step ups as well are more of a high rep exercise, if you even class them as a bodybuilding exercise that is. I wouldn't do them if I were you unless you're planning on using them as cardio.

I would cut out alot of the isolations like curls, shrugs, lateral raises etc as you stimulate the muscles concerned in compound movements. You're not trying to emphasise their growth, so why do they need to have extra work done on them when you're only trying to stimulate them, not to make them grow. Shoulder press/Arnie Press should have you covered for shoulders as they're hit alot when doing chest and back and to some extent even some leg work.

As for the cardio, if you're planning on doing HIIT, do around 20 mins of low effort cardio after, like a brisk walk or something to burn some of the fat that has been moblisied by hormones in reaction to the HIIT. It will also serve as a cool-down which alot of people overlook. My PE teacher explained to me that brisk walking for 30 mins burns more fat than jogging for 30 mins. This is because your fat cannot be metabolised fast enough to produce the energy needed for the higher demand exercises and so muscle is burned instead. With glycogen close to depletion after HIIT, low/moderate cardio will set the fat burning off.
Basically what P-Funk means (I think) is that on a cut, with the low calories, you cannot afford to push your body to extremes or tax it alot because it's not recieving the fuel to accomodate the stress it's being put under, therefore it breaks down the muscle instead. Both the workout and cardio need to be done in a relative comfort zone (except HIIT which should leave you feeling sick).

 

[P-funk]

Sprinters do HIIT. Long distance runners do steady state.

Is there a difference in physiques?? Your can work that out yourself.

Not a good argument at all.

Sprinters don't do HIIT either. That is a myth made up by people who know nothing about sprinting and how those athletes train.

patrick

 

[P-funk]

P-Funk i'm guessing by your cryptic message you believe i should have less in those workouts? Care to explain which ones? I'm thinking on days 1 and 3 may be a little much, but day 5 looks good. I did the day 5 workout on friday, but added in some side lunges and calf raises and it seemed ok. It certainly killed me, but it didn't seem overboard. I haven't been able to walk since, but that was my first leg workout in months.

Less is more. I am fond of saying, push something, pull something and do something for your legs. That's it! Really!

People seem to think that by doing more volume they are getting more of a workout. In the process they end up wasting a ton of time.

Check out this article by Jim Wendler on his 5/3/1 system. I think he explains simplicity really well.

patrick

 

[T_man]

Not a good argument at all.

Sprinters don't do HIIT either. That is a myth made up by people who know nothing about sprinting and how those athletes train.

patrick

It's not an argument. I'm just pointing out something people can visualise because it's hard to understand concepts which don't seem to make sense logically straight away. I do understand that sprinters do steady state and you can do endurance training and still have adequate amounts of muscle mass but in order to do so you need to make up the calories and there is a higher risk of catabolism than in short sprint bursts but here it's getting too complex for someone who doesn't know whether to do steady state cardio or HIIT for optimum fat loss. If you were to eat the same diet, HIIT would lead to more fat loss/muscle sparing than steady state imo, this is what I'm saying.

In high school when I used to sprint we used to do HIIT once a week. I'm not saying it's the base of sprinter's routines but they do incorporate it into their training. I do understand sprinting Patrick please don't underestimate me, I know I'm young and not as knowledgable as you but patronising is uncalled for.

 

[P-funk]

I wasn't patronizing you. Don't read into things. All I was stating was that sprinters don't do HIIT interval training.

patrick

 

[phoenix05]

I posted something last night but it hasn't appeared here, so I'm not sure what happened there.

I just wanted to update on what i had after taking into account what everyone has said here. I'm thinking around 6 exercises per session seems about right. Maybe i should push for five, but 6 seems like the sweet spot.

Here is the updated program:

3 days a week, reps 6-10, 3 sets, and rest for 60-90 secs

Day 1:
Bench press
Dips
Incline Bench Press
Shoulder press
dumbbell pullover
tricep pushdown

Day 2:
Cardio

Day 3:
Close grip chin up
Cable seated row
Lat Raise
Dumbbell curl
Wide grip Chin Up
deadlift


Day 4:
Cardio


Day 5:

Squat
Leg curl
leg press
Lunges
Angled ab twist with plate
Oblique side abs
Trunk twist with Dumbbell

Day 6:
Rest

Day 7:
Rest

I have taken out a the extra days cardio also. I'll see how i go with two sessions and then add in a third if it's necessary. But with my weight loss so far i don't think it will be just yet.

The only things I'm thinking i may take out now is the tricep pushdown, and the dumbbell curls. This would get it down to 5 exercises.

I'll be giving this a start tonight and seeing how i go. The weight seems to continue to fly off me, so if i can maintain the muscle i would be very happy.

 

[phoenix05]

Check out this article by Jim Wendler on his 5/3/1 system. I think he explains simplicity really well.

patrick

I missed this the first time around. I see that he uses only 3 exercises in each one, so I might look at lowering it to 3 on mine. I don't want to appear like I'm avoiding doing it, but the article and program seems focused mainly on strength gains, whereas mine is purely muscle gain. Is there a difference? From my understanding from people on this site, the main difference will be the amount of reps. 6-10 being the ideal for muscle gain, and lower for strength gain. Is this accurate?

I'm looking forward to hearing what people think!

 

[P-funk]

Hypertrophy gains come from eating enough calories.

Do enough work to force and adaptation and don't spend any more time in the gym wasting calories.

patrick

 

[gtbmed]

You can make good strength and size gains in the 3-5 rep range.

Like p funk said, do enough to stimulate hypertrophy and then go eat and rest. IMO there's no need to do 4 different variations of a similar pressing movement if you want hypertrophy.

 

[phoenix05]

I'll definitely be cutting down the 7 exercises to around 3 or 4! We did a workout last night, and 3 or 4 is certainly what i should be aiming for. Thanks for all the help everyone. I'm going to get the UD2 book when i get closer to the 15% body fat mark so i can keep everything running smoothly.

Everything seems to be going really well. I continue to lose the weight at a pretty good rate, and i feel pretty good too.

I can't wait to get down to a low enough BF % to start bulking up finally!

Thanks again everyone! I appreciate it all.

 

[P-funk]

Sounds like you are on your way. Keep it up!

Patrick

 

[phoenix05]

Day two was pretty good. I think the first session was probably a little harder, but finishing with deadlifts wiped me out. I can see why you don't pair that up on the same day as squats now! My only issue at this stage with them is my grip. I broke my thumb earlier this year, and this is one exercise that is pushing my grip to the limits. There was a few times i nearly lost the bar doing deadlifts. Any pointers? I'm thinking of going the mixed grip next time to see if that helps.

It's been a long time since i've felt like i actually worked my back. Even back a few years ago when i was doing this regularly i never actually felt like i'd pushed my back very far. But today I'm feeling it all over my back. It's nice

I'm eating well below my maintenance calories. I was curious as to what is too low? I don't know why, but I don't get as uncomfortable as some people when they are eating less, but i want to know how far is too far.

Any thoughts?

 

[T_man]

about 500-700 calories is the general figure i've read not to go under, but you can still make losses with even 300 so it depends on whether you want to drop fat fast or preserve more muscle.

Deadlifts are a great exercise, I did them too today after some lunges and I was stoked! I did them today with the mixed grip for the first time and it was still tough to keep a grip but I went 10kg more than my previous times and I managed to keep it steady for 8 reps.

When the bar goes dead, if you just take that 0.2 seconds to readjust your hands slightly for a better grip it could work.

 

[gtbmed]

What type of stance and grip do you use?

 

[phoenix05]

I'm definitely more than 500-700 calories under each day. It doesn't really worry me about being hungry some of the time, i'm more worried about what it does phisically. So far i have lost a lot of weight, and it seems to be mostly fat, so I'm happy and won't change anything just yet. Unless it is really bad eating that few calories.

I didn't really think about the stance with the deadlift. I just got my feet about shoulder width apart and followed what i read on exrx. As for grip, i held the bar underneath it. Not sure the exact terminology though.

 

[jmorrison]

Just aim for 2-3lbs of weight loss per week. Anymoer than that and you are probably wrecking your muscle. Track your weightloss and modify your calories accordingly.

How is it going?

 

[phoenix05]

Things have been going along fantastic so far. The workouts themselves are really challenging. I get to a certain point in every workout that i get a bit light headed, but i guess that's to be expected. I have my BF % checked again on the 22nd of this month so I'm pretty excited about seeing where that has come.

I remember starting thinking about losing the fat a while ago and i was 230 pounds! I checked on my home scales and I've now hit 202 pounds. I'm very happy with that and am curious about the BF% as well as muscle loss.

I've increased the weights progressively as i've gone along too which is good news. I was happy if i could just maintain the strength while I'm losing the fat, but it seems to be increasing.

The diet has been pretty flawless. I haven't had one meal that i've gone off the plan with. It's been fine up until this week, but i've started to get cravings over the last few days. If i get to my goal BF% on the 22nd, i might be treating myself to a cheat day or two.

I feel like things are going really well. I probably have a bit more time than when i first though, and still may have around 11-12 weeks left before i leave so that's a good thing for me.