"you cant gain muscle and lose fat at the same time" is bullshit

[SNC]

For example, let's say there's a man of 200 pounds and is 15% body fat. But he wants to be ripped, which for him would be at 8% body fat.
His lean mass is 170 pounds. If he tweaks his diet, or adds in cardio, or both (whatever he prefers for the caloric deficit) so that's he'll level off at 8% body fat with the same lean mass, then he'll be eating to maintain about 184 pounds, instead of his current 200.
If he's eating to maintain 184 pounds, why on earth should he worry about not eating enough calories to build muscle on his lean 170 pounds ?

 

[rayray715]

In a slight calorie surplus of your LEAN BODY MASS's requirements, while in a caloric deficit of your current (excess flab) BODY WEIGHT requirements.

what about calorie partitioning? only so much will go into muscle. so if the rest isnt burned off, then it is stored as fat. if it is burned off, how can you burn off existing fat without being on a calorie deficit?

 

[SNC]

what about calorie partitioning? only so much will go into muscle. so if the rest isnt burned off, then it is stored as fat. if it is burned off, how can you burn off existing fat without being on a calorie deficit?

You must be on a caloric deficit to burn off existing fat. I think everyone here agrees with that.

What I'm pointing out is that you dont have to be on a caloric surplus (ie. enough calories to increase your current body weight) to build muscle.

People here are saying "you have to be in caloric surplus to build muscle", but that's a complete distortion (or misunderstanding) of the facts, the truth is YOU HAVE TO BE IN CALORIC SURPLUS TO ADD WEIGHT, not muscle.

Shedding fat with a diet adjustment is the same as simply re-calibrating the "maintenance" line between surplus and deficit. If you are already fat then you are maintaining that fat with your current diet. To lose some fat you just eat less, whereby you are eating enough to maintain a LOWER body weight. In time you will get down to that weight. That's dieting. It's simple.
Now, what exactly in that suggests that at any time during the diet the trainee wasn't eating enough to repair and build muscle (as some here are suggesting) ?

 

[dave 236]

For example, let's say there's a man of 200 pounds and is 15% body fat. But he wants to be ripped, which for him would be at 8% body fat.
His lean mass is 170 pounds. If he tweaks his diet, or adds in cardio, or both (whatever he prefers for the caloric deficit) so that's he'll level off at 8% body fat with the same lean mass, then he'll be eating to maintain about 184 pounds, instead of his current 200.
If he's eating to maintain 184 pounds, why on earth should he worry about not eating enough calories to build muscle on his lean 170 pounds ?

Because unless you do this very slowly the weight you lose will not be all fat. You will lose muscle too

 

[rayray715]

You must be on a caloric deficit to burn off existing fat. I think everyone here agrees with that.

What I'm pointing out is that you dont have to be on a caloric surplus (ie. enough calories to increase your current body weight) to build muscle.

People here are saying "you have to be in caloric surplus to build muscle", but that's a complete distortion (or misunderstanding) of the facts, the truth is YOU HAVE TO BE IN CALORIC SURPLUS TO ADD WEIGHT, not muscle.

Shedding fat with a diet adjustment is the same as simply re-calibrating the "maintenance" line between surplus and deficit. If you are already fat then you are maintaining that fat with your current diet. To lose some fat you just eat less, whereby you are eating enough to maintain a LOWER body weight. In time you will get down to that weight. That's dieting. It's simple.
Now, what exactly in that suggests that at any time during the diet the trainee wasn't eating enough to repair and build muscle (as some here are suggesting) ?

i can only see that happening with newbies to the game. if thats not the case, how can muscle grow without it being fed more? same if you lift with the same weight all the time, if you dont increase the weight, you wont grow. muscle is still being broken down and repaired, but under certain circumstances, they will only build stronger fibers(without a surplus) or build and recruit more stronger fibers( with surplus).

 

[SNC]

i can only see that happening with newbies to the game. if thats not the case, how can muscle grow without it being fed more? same if you lift with the same weight all the time, if you dont increase the weight, you wont grow. muscle is still being broken down and repaired, but under certain circumstances, they will only build stronger fibers(without a surplus) or build and recruit more stronger fibers( with surplus).

A muscle will grow if it is stressed sufficiently AND fed sufficiently AND rested sufficiently.

Why should the sufficient feeding amount to MORE THAN CURRENT LEVELS if the body is already being fed to the point of FATNESS ?
That makes no sense.

If someone eats 4000 calories a day on average to maintain his current weight, and he's carrying enough flab to cover his abs, if he goes to a strict 3800 a day are we going to say he's not eating enough to build muscle ?
If he's training hard and heavy his muscles will grow !

 

[Merkaba]

SNC I see what you're saying, but you're speaking as if, from what I see, that the subject will be in perpetual surplus just because they are currently overweight which in my also 15 years of experience isn't always the case. and you're not showing how muscle mass will be gained during the process! Yes you will if you're Fat or sedentary and you start working out, I think we all agree on that as well due to just basic partitioning principles. Now say 3 months down the road and you're running a 20-25% caloric deficit and and losing 5 lbs a month yet still building muscle? Is this what you're saying?

 

[SNC]

SNC I see what you're saying, but you're speaking as if, from what I see, that the subject will be in perpetual surplus just because they are currently overweight which in my also 15 years of experience isn't always the case. and you're not showing how muscle mass will be gained during the process! Yes you will if you're Fat or sedentary and you start working out, I think we all agree on that as well due to just basic partitioning principles. Now say 3 months down the road and you're running a 20-25% caloric deficit and and losing 5 lbs a month yet still building muscle? Is this what you're saying?

Yes. With hard, heavy work-outs, sufficiently nutritious food intake and adequate rest the subject should still be gaining muscle.
The hormonal response to the stimulus dictates that building the over-compensatory muscle tissue becomes one of the body's priorities, just another natural function. Even in a fat burning state the body wants to build that damn muscle !
The body doesn't know that we just want muscles for aesthetic purposes, bragging rights or posing infront of the mirror. It doesn't just say "no more muscle" when it is forced to use fat stores. The body adapts to the stresses put on it, and if the adaptation process requires energy during a time of limited calorie intake that fat-burning process will serve the body's needs in turn. Of course, organ cells, brain-function, respiratory functions etc. are the priority, but that's always the case. FORTUNATELY.

 

[awhites1]

I haven't read all the post b/c its getting too long but I always thought it really only worked in the case of someone that was really out of shape.

Take a lard ass at around 30% body fat and get them on bulking work out program (deadlifts, squats, bench), now to put on muscle there is going to be some fat. It is in the muscle like you see it in steak, no way around it. But as they work out and tear down muscle, the body takes in calories/protein and builds up new muscle. As they build new muscle there metabolism goes up and they start to burn more calories.
If they are on a caloric deficient diet they're going to lose weight. I guess thinking out loud about it though your body can't use fat storage to repair and build muscle but if you had a high enough protein intake I guess you could maintain, repair and build new muscle while still loosing fat b/c your so overweight and in a negative calorie swing.
obviously for someone whos a little healthier this is going to be impossible. I've never thought about the pyschics of it though and could be way off.
In any case you can't argue with if your fat you need to limit your calories and burn up that fat however your method. if your skinny eat lots and lift. its that simple

 

[kyoun1e]

Everyone should read this:

Adding Muscle While Losing Fat - Q&A | BodyRecomposition - The Home of Lyle McDonald

KY

 

[jmorrison]

I know from personal experience that when I cut from 30% to about 15% I got stronger and built some muscle. When I went sub 15% on a small deficit of 300-500 cals per day, it ate my muscle up and I lost a lot of size and strength DESPTITE keeping my workouts intense and heavy.

I do not see how I could build muscle during this time when my body was basically eating itself for sustenance. What would it build out of? Or would the caloric deficit need to be smaller? I just don't see it as possible for a fairly lean individual to build muscle while becoming MORE lean.

I understand what you are saying that a fatty (like I was) can build muscle because even in the deficit to lose weight I was still over cals for my lean tissue, but how the hell would this be possible for a lean individual? You can't build something from nothing.

 

[SNC]

I know from personal experience that when I cut from 30% to about 15% I got stronger and built some muscle. When I went sub 15% on a small deficit of 300-500 cals per day, it ate my muscle up and I lost a lot of size and strength DESPTITE keeping my workouts intense and heavy.

How much muscle did you lose precisely ?
Strength loss could be from a number of things.

I do not see how I could build muscle during this time when my body was basically eating itself for sustenance. What would it build out of?

Some of the energy from fat stores and some of the protein intake. Muscle-building is part of the body's "sustenance" if it's being hit with a stress/stimulus to cause a hormonal adaptation.

Or would the caloric deficit need to be smaller?

Probably. The more gradual and small the adjustment the better. But then, for bodybuilders who "need" to bulk up or live in a bulky condition for 3/4 of a year, I guess a slow diet is not acceptable.

I believe in a moderate diet, and zig-zagging the calories, nutrients and meal frequency. But everyone has their own methods.

I just don't see it as possible for a fairly lean individual to build muscle while becoming MORE lean.

It's possible for a fairly lean person to go to "six-pack" and "ripped" and continue to build muscle, and unless we're talking extreme peaks and "unnaturally" low levels of body fat it's absolutely possible.

I understand what you are saying that a fatty (like I was) can build muscle because even in the deficit to lose weight I was still over cals for my lean tissue, but how the hell would this be possible for a lean individual? You can't build something from nothing.

It's a matter of where you draw the line between possible and impossible. Where you draw the line between the fatty and the lean person. Personally, I think it's only the already ripped individuals who should worry about losing muscle or failing to gain any as a necessary result of a diet - and if they are already ripped then the only reason to diet further is for some extreme reason (eg. contest), that's their choice, their dilemma. But for the average trainer who has a fairly slim and flat midsection but wants to be ripped - the abs to show, veins, clear sharp definition all over - I think the feat is possible.

 

[T_man]

Jus a question. If you have alot of fat. And you lift alot. And eat enough protein, while on a slight deficit. Why doesn't your body tap into that fat as an energy source to build muscle, rather than dietary calories, because, after all, it's dead weight and there's so much of it?

 

[kyoun1e]

Jus a question. If you have alot of fat. And you lift alot. And eat enough protein, while on a slight deficit. Why doesn't your body tap into that fat as an energy source to build muscle, rather than dietary calories, because, after all, it's dead weight and there's so much of it?

If you're a "fat newbie," this can happen, but for a short period. Your fat cells are pretty damn full so they're resistant to additional fat storage. Add the new training stimulus and encouraging an anabolic response and these calories that are pushed away from the fat cells are used to build muscle. Ta da...lose fat and gain muscle.

That said, if you've been training for a while, you're not going to be so lucky. You have to be both "fat" and "new" to experience the above. As you lose more fat and train more, it's much harder to either pull fat out of storage or build muscle. That's the price of getting better/bigger/slimmer.

People need to understand that we're talking about two separate, complicated processes here. The mechanisms for fat loss and muscle growth are two different things...they're not mashed together. And your body in general doesn't like to do two things at once.

Outside of the segments I outlined initially (newbie, drugs, genetic elite) the only situation where I think gaining muscle and losing fat is possible is UD2 (Ultimate Diet 2.0). Some have experienced this. I haven't been so lucky. And even if you're lucky to gain some muscle, it's very little in comparison to the fat loss.

Think most need to accept reality.

Or start taking drugs.

KY

 

[SNC]

""

 

[Marat]

Jus a question. If you have alot of fat. And you lift alot. And eat enough protein, while on a slight deficit. Why doesn't your body tap into that fat as an energy source to build muscle, rather than dietary calories, because, after all, it's dead weight and there's so much of it?

In addition to what kyoun1e said,

I'm going to go layman's terms: it takes more energy input to release stored energy than to utilize what is already floating around from one's food intake. As usual, one's body prefers to take the path of least resistance.

By going into a caloric deficit, one is 'convincing' their body to pull energy from the fat stores.

Going full circle: For most cases, losing fat requires one to convince their body that it needs to utilize the energy in the fat stores. By going into a sustained caloric deficit, one is 'telling' their body that there isn't any food around, and to fill the deficit with energy from fat stores [your body needs 2500 cals (maintenance) and one is consistently taking in 2000 (deficit intake), one's mitochondria needs to make up that 500 calorie deficit by pulling energy out of fat stores.

In order for that to be done, one's body needs to up or downregulate plenty of hormones and generally shuffle around a lot of one's biochemistry.

This 'shuffling' is opposite of the 'shuffling' needed to build muscle. Muscle tissue is not 'designed' to store proteins. It is simply a contractile unit. Taking in a ton of energy alone will not make one's muscles grow. The protein does provide the 'building blocks' and the other macronutrients do provide the 'elbow grease' to build up the muscle. However, because muscle is not designed as a storage unit, they respond to work in order to grow.

When you apply work to your muscles, they can either adapt to the work (get stronger and/or bigger --- this means increasing muscle mass) or acquiesce to the work and simply not grow. At surplus and proper work, they will grow.

The most common reason why the latter occurs is that the individual is not taking in enough calories. Even eating at true maintenance (calories in = out, this is nearly impossible to do, and this is why people recompose slowly over time), one does not have the 'bricks(protein surplus/positive nitrogen balance) and mortar (caloric surplus) in order to build a house (muscle). Bodybuilding and physics are overlapping magisteria, and physics says that you cannot build something out of nothing.


When one is eating at deficit, not only does one not have enough energy to sustain their own mitochondrial needs at, but now the body is required to defend against the work that it is being exposed to. As mentioned, one option is to grow bigger and stronger, however, there is no materials available to do so, the muscles will not grow bigger and stronger.

These concepts are why it is recommended to lift with low volume during a cut. One is trying to apply enough pressure to the muscles to let one's body know that they are needed without forcing one's body to surrender to the work applied.

All in all, bodybuilding is a game of thermodynamics -- fat loss responds to taking in less energy than required. Muscle gain responds to work, however surplus calories are needed in order to build muscle (thermodynamics, again).

As stated earlier, one cannot be in deficit and in surplus simultaneously.

 

[CowPimp]

Well, it looks like the original poster has already been ripped a new Gazhole. All I have to say is good luck getting anywhere like that. Yes, in theory, it is possible. In practice, good luck. We'll see where you are in a few years trying to do both at the same time constantly.

 

[Merkaba]

Well Dam SNC, when does the body ever go into a catabolic state then?

 

[Moze]

Please respond SNC. You're the underdog here, and I was rooting for ya. I personally Lost 26 pounds of pure fat over a period of 6 months from January to June last year, and I was proud of that, 196 lbs down to 170 lbs. I kept a detailed diary of all exercises, and weight amounts lifted. And I measured all carbs, proteins and fats. I kept the calorie intake slightly under maintenance, except for my once a week cheat meal. And I did get stronger! Of course I was in the range of 25% bf. and dropped to 15% bf. but still.... My bench press went up 25 lbs. ! I actually didn't even do that much cardio. I'm 40 and have been lifting on and off since high school. Plus my nights are riddled with severe insomnia. I don't think I am a newbie, but maybe that's relative. Doesn't this qualify as losing fat and building muscle at the same time? Without getting too scientific. Come on people, work with me here.

 

[CowPimp]

Please respond SNC. You're the underdog here, and I was rooting for ya. I personally Lost 26 pounds of pure fat over a period of 6 months from January to June last year, and I was proud of that, 196 lbs down to 170 lbs. I kept a detailed diary of all exercises, and weight amounts lifted. And I measured all carbs, proteins and fats. I kept the calorie intake slightly under maintenance, except for my once a week cheat meal. And I did get stronger! Of course I was in the range of 25% bf. and dropped to 15% bf. but still.... My bench press went up 25 lbs. ! I actually didn't even do that much cardio. I'm 40 and have been lifting on and off since high school. Plus my nights are riddled with severe insomnia. I don't think I am a newbie, but maybe that's relative. Doesn't this qualify as losing fat and building muscle at the same time? Without getting too scientific. Come on people, work with me here.

Yup, you're a newbie, first of all. Second of all, how are you so certain that you didn't lose any muscle anyway? Simply weighing yourself and looking in the mirror does not qualify as accurate. Finally, you can get stronger while not gaining muscle mass. There are a variety of other factors, but if you are new to lifting or haven't lifted in a while, you see huge neural gains right away even with no appreciable change in body composition.

 

[Moze]

Cowpimp,

I know you are quite well read in the areas of fitness. I've read dozens of your 15,000+ posts. And I've always liked them. You have a pedantic manner in your presentations. I'm going to jump off topic for a second, now that I have your attention. I've dealt with severe insomnia since I was 18. It went away for a while in my twenties, and resurfaced again in my thirties. In the last year it has been particularly bad. It is always the early morning variety. Meaning I go to sleep quickly at around 10:30 pm and wake up at around 200 or 300 a.m. and never go back to sleep. I've tried many strategies. Homeopathic remedies, L-Tryptophan, tea with valerian root, Casein protein at night, over the counter sleep medicines. Some work for a little while. If you saw my thread on Insomnia and weightlifting, you would know that it is the not being satisfied with my career obsession, that I feel is the real problem. Since you seem quite intelligent, maybe you might have a solution to my endless insomnia problem.

 

[SNC]

People need to understand that we're talking about two separate, complicated processes here. The mechanisms for fat loss and muscle growth are two different things...they're not mashed together. And your body in general doesn't like to do two things at once.

The body does several things at once.
And the question of fat loss and muscle gain "at the same time" is in the context of being spread over a period of a number of weeks, so they two mechanism dont necessarily have to be operating literally at the very same instant. And that shouldn't be a problem. Muscles aren't growing ALL THE TIME. Fat isn't disappearing at a constant steady rate. These are processes that are going to occur for portions of the day and night, in cycles, manipulated by stimulus and influenced by and influencing other processes and cycles, according to training, diet specifics, body temperature, sleep, eating, drinking, fasting etc.

 

[Marat]

The body does several things at once.

This is true. Your body, on the micro level, does burn fat and rebuild muscle at the same time.

However, this conversation is relatively moot if it cannot be applied to bodybuilding.

SNC, are you suggesting that one can gain an appreciable amount of muscle mass and lose an appreciable amount of fat while on, say, a 500 calorie deficit?

For instance: an individual is on a 500 calorie deficit for a period of time, perhaps a month or two; are you suggesting that the individual can gain, say, 5lbs of lean mass and lose 5lbs of fat? The actual numbers are not the point, the idea is that they can gain and lose an appreciable amount of weight. We can hold that the individual does not take any performance enhancing drugs and has great genetics, nutrition, and training.

 

[SNC]

Well Dam SNC, when does the body ever go into a catabolic state then?

At various times, and that's unavoidable.
This anabolism and catabolism, muscle gain and fat loss, these hormonal increases and decreases are all happening in what are micro-cycles of the actual period of time we should be concerned about.

I might be growing tonight because of what I did in the gym 10 days ago, and the growth and its extent a consequence too of the certain meals I ate, in certain amounts, at certain times in the last few days.
It's not necessarily whether I ate a net caloric surplus over the entire 10 days, or 2 weeks or whatever.
7 days ago I might have been losing fat AND breaking down muscle, but the stimulus I hit the body with 10 days ago is taken its toll and reaping the rewards now, and an isolated overly-catabolic day might have been a necessary unavoidable piece of the entire process in my mission to lose fat and gain muscle.

Of course, losing fat and gaining muscle simultaneously isn't the ideal mission to be on. I would advise staying lean all the time. If you stay within a few pounds of being as ripped as you would want to be, it's never really an issue.

 

[SNC]

This is true. Your body, on the micro level, does burn fat and rebuild muscle at the same time.

However, this conversation is relatively moot if it cannot be applied to bodybuilding.

SNC, are you suggesting that one can gain an appreciable amount of muscle mass and lose an appreciable amount of fat while on, say, a 500 calorie deficit?

For instance: an individual is on a 500 calorie deficit for a period of time, perhaps a month or two; are you suggesting that the individual can gain, say, 5lbs of lean mass and lose 5lbs of fat? The actual numbers are not the point, the idea is that they can gain and lose an appreciable amount of weight. We can hold that the individual does not take any performance enhancing drugs and has great genetics, nutrition, and training.

It's difficult for any individual who has been training properly for some time (and is carrying as much mass as he ever has, ie. not coming back off a layoff) to gain an appreciable amount of muscle in a month or two, whether on the fat-loss diet or not.

For such individuals, it's a lot harder to gain muscle than lose fat.
Losing fat is the easiest thing apart from gaining fat !
Gaining pounds per month, say, of muscle is quite hard, undoubtedly, even with good genetics.
But losing muscle is a lot harder (for the conscientious bodybuilder) than a lot of bodybuilders seem to think. Bodybuilders seem to revel or wallow in worrying about losing muscle.

It's possible to gain muscle and lose fat, and the muscle gain might be small and very gradual, but for the non-beginner muscle gain will naturally be gradual in any case. Once you get to a certain size the growth slows down.

 

[SNC]

Please respond SNC. You're the underdog here, and I was rooting for ya. I personally Lost 26 pounds of pure fat over a period of 6 months from January to June last year, and I was proud of that, 196 lbs down to 170 lbs. I kept a detailed diary of all exercises, and weight amounts lifted. And I measured all carbs, proteins and fats. I kept the calorie intake slightly under maintenance, except for my once a week cheat meal. And I did get stronger! Of course I was in the range of 25% bf. and dropped to 15% bf. but still.... My bench press went up 25 lbs. ! I actually didn't even do that much cardio. I'm 40 and have been lifting on and off since high school. Plus my nights are riddled with severe insomnia. I don't think I am a newbie, but maybe that's relative. Doesn't this qualify as losing fat and building muscle at the same time? Without getting too scientific. Come on people, work with me here.

Well, for those who say it's IMPOSSIBLE for anyone other than a newbie or someone coming back off a layoff, you'll be in one of those categories. And that's fair enough.

BUT I think the difference between the muscle-building potential of a beginner and a non-beginner isn't a exact science. It's not like someone was physically and biologically still a "newbie" on a Monday session and not so by the Wednesday !

I mean, anyone who who's still training to gain size - who believes he can still add muscle mass - must still have some of that "newbie" biology in him. That's the principle every bodybuilder works on - ie. that there is something he can do in the gym to stimulate more growth !
Things DO change in the body as a bodybuilder gets more advanced, and for a number of reasons gaining muscle becomes harder the closer he gets to maxing out. It gets dramatically harder.
Gaining muscle is easier for a beginner.
Gaining muscle while losing fat is easier for a beginner.
But neither of those things are impossible for someone who's more advanced.
In fact losing fat per se should be easier for the more muscular individual.

 

[kyoun1e]

Yup, you're a newbie, first of all. Second of all, how are you so certain that you didn't lose any muscle anyway? Simply weighing yourself and looking in the mirror does not qualify as accurate. Finally, you can get stronger while not gaining muscle mass. There are a variety of other factors, but if you are new to lifting or haven't lifted in a while, you see huge neural gains right away even with no appreciable change in body composition.

And there's a problem right there. Many claim they've lost fat and gained muscle, but I'd like to see accurate metrics. And they never have 'em.

KY

 

[Gazhole]

This thread is epic.

Have mid term exams and assignments due in, but im still reading, and loving the back and forth.

 

[Merkaba]

This thread is epic.

Have mid term exams and assignments due in, but im still reading, and loving the back and forth.

Yes I agree. I just stepped in for a sec too I gotta go write a contract on a home see ya!

 

[Moze]

Here's an interesting approach to losing fat while building muscle. If anyone is interested, please read the article and let me know what you think. I guess the key is major fluctuations in diet, and timing, which I think snc was eluding to earlier.

Bodybuilding.com - Build Muscle & Lose Fat Simultaneously? - Kelly Baggett