Time To Cut

[rockhardly]

First, I would like to thank you guys for helping me get moving in the right direction. I have lifted basically my whole life but never with any real purpose. THe biggest I have ever been up until last december was 175# (basically this weight was maintained from age 18 to 31). During 31, I began to realize that I am getting older and if I am ever going to be "BIG", it is now or never. So, I started researching and found this forum. With ya'lls help, both directly and indirectly, I got myself lined up to achieve my goals. I started my first real bulk on December 1, 2009. I weighed 175# and was in great shape with very little BF. I am now 205#, bigger and stronger than I have ever been. Again, I thank you guys for your help. I was planning on going to the end of March before I started to cut but my body is getting tired and I want to reveal my rewards.

So, I need your help again. I consider myself advanced so I don't need to be led by the hand. What intensities and volumes are best while on a cut?

Side note: We all know that you can't gain muscle and lose fat simultaneously. Strength is not completely related to muscle mass. It also has to do with neural effiiciency, correct? So, would it be possible to get stronger and lose fat using a powerlifting style training program while on a cut?

 

[CowPimp]

In my opinion the program should hardly change. If anything, reduce the volume 20% or so since you will, theoretically, have a reduced capacity to recover from training. I usually don't change much of anything except my calorie intake though.

In theory you could gain strength while you are cutting weight. It isn't likely, but assuming you lose no muscle mass at all you could improve neurological efficiency and get stronger while cutting weight.

Although there is some merit to doing higher repetition work, in that it is more metabolic, generally speaking you want to keep lifting heavy. There is some evidence to suggest that intramuscular triglycerides are better utilized at higher repetition ranges, but that's not what people care about when cutting. It's the subcutaneous fat that matters in terms of looking leaner. Most people do higher reps in a misguided effort to "tone up" a certain area. As you probably well know if you have been reading these forums regularly, you cannot spot reduce fat stores, so there is no foundation for this methodology of training while cutting fat.

 

[rockhardly]

In my opinion the program should hardly change. If anything, reduce the volume 20% or so since you will, theoretically, have a reduced capacity to recover from training. I usually don't change much of anything except my calorie intake though.

But is it worth going thru a bulk style training if muscle mass is not going to be gained? I thought that we just need to keep our body from using the muscle for energy by continueing to challenge it with high intensity but with reduced volume; i.e one excercise per muscle group of 4x6 or something. For example, if, while bulking, I was training my chest with:
bench-3x8
incline-3x8
DB press-3x8

should it not be modified to, say:
bench-4x6 only?

I would hate to continue the physical onslaught I have put myself thru the last 4 months without any real benifit. Of course, I aslo do not want to lose any lbm that the onslaught has brought about.

 

[CowPimp]

But is it worth going thru a bulk style training if muscle mass is not going to be gained? I thought that we just need to keep our body from using the muscle for energy by continueing to challenge it with high intensity but with reduced volume; i.e one excercise per muscle group of 4x6 or something. For example, if, while bulking, I was training my chest with:
bench-3x8
incline-3x8
DB press-3x8

should it not be modified to, say:
bench-4x6 only?

I would hate to continue the physical onslaught I have put myself thru the last 4 months without any real benifit. Of course, I aslo do not want to lose any lbm that the onslaught has brought about.

You are nitpicking a bit here. Neither one of those intensities is really heavy enough for focused neurological adaptation in an intermediate to advanced trainee. With 3 sets of 8 you are probably using about 75% of your 1RM, and with 4 sets of 6 probably somewhere around 80% of your 1RM. Training loads for maximal strength gains are 85-90% of your 1RM or more. Technically, it isn't considered maximal effort training until you reach 90% or greater.

The point is, you can only do so much really heavy lifting without overtraining. You are right in a sense, in that it seems silly to include the higher volume stuff when you aren't going to be putting on mass. However, even powerlifters utilize loading parameters that one would consider more focused on building muscle mass. Even with intense lifting as the focus, you still want to accumulate some level of volume with it, and more traditional set/rep schemes are better suited for this.

Furthermore, if you are putting down that growth stimulus, you are less likely to give up your muscle mass during the cut. As the saying goes, what builds it also maintains it.

Also, what you showed earlier is simply taking up the intensity WITHOUT reducing the volume. 3x8 and 4x6 are the same number of total repetitions. The difference being you will actually accumulate more volume with the 4x6 loading parameters because you will be using a heavier weight.

 

[rockhardly]

With regards to the example, it was only that. Not a real reflection from my training. It was mainly to express a point; mainly that during a bulk if your doing 3 excercisses of 3 sets each (9 sets total; 72 reps) can you really continue with that during a cut or can you get away with 1 excercise with 4 sets (4 sets total; 24 reps) at a higher intensity. I think that post created some confusion so if you want to ignore it, thats fine.

You say that you usually don't change your program. Do you continue adding reps and/or weights to your lifts or do you lift the same amount/way week after week?

Generally speaking, would you suggest a higher volume/lower intensity or visa versa or a combination of both?

Any and all suggestions are appreciated. My main goal, above ALL others, is to keep all the muscle I have.

 

[rayray715]

before my cut my program was basically 3-5 exercises at 3x8. i switched it up to three exercises. 5x5, 3x8, 3x12. i was dropping weight and strength gradually, than started picking it up at the same rate. after dropping 30 lbs. i would say i am way stronger although i am lifting less. i would expect this to help significantly when i begin my bulk.

 

[CowPimp]

With regards to the example, it was only that. Not a real reflection from my training. It was mainly to express a point; mainly that during a bulk if your doing 3 excercisses of 3 sets each (9 sets total; 72 reps) can you really continue with that during a cut or can you get away with 1 excercise with 4 sets (4 sets total; 24 reps) at a higher intensity. I think that post created some confusion so if you want to ignore it, thats fine.

You say that you usually don't change your program. Do you continue adding reps and/or weights to your lifts or do you lift the same amount/way week after week?

Generally speaking, would you suggest a higher volume/lower intensity or visa versa or a combination of both?

Any and all suggestions are appreciated. My main goal, above ALL others, is to keep all the muscle I have.

Oh, now I understand. I didn't realize you were suggested the replacement of all those exercises with just one. When you're in caloric deficit, I don't think it's necessary to cut your total volume to 1/3 of where it was. Like I said, something like a 20% reduction would be enough in my opinion. It should at least be enough to start with, and you can adjust if you find that it's too much for you to handle.

I always TRY to progress while I'm shedding body fat. However, that obviously is not always going to happen, just as it won't happen every time while you're packing on pounds either.

I almost always think some combination of the two is best, no matter what your goals are. Heavy weights and low reps are great for a variety of goals, but as I said previously, you can't do this exclusively. Furthermore, a lot of great powerlifters, Louie Simmons being the one I can think of off the top of my head, suggest that total volume is also important for building strength.

 

[rockhardly]

Oh, now I understand. I didn't realize you were suggested the replacement of all those exercises with just one. When you're in caloric deficit, I don't think it's necessary to cut your total volume to 1/3 of where it was. Like I said, something like a 20% reduction would be enough in my opinion. It should at least be enough to start with, and you can adjust if you find that it's too much for you to handle.

I always TRY to progress while I'm shedding body fat. However, that obviously is not always going to happen, just as it won't happen every time while you're packing on pounds either.

I almost always think some combination of the two is best, no matter what your goals are. Heavy weights and low reps are great for a variety of goals, but as I said previously, you can't do this exclusively. Furthermore, a lot of great powerlifters, Louie Simmons being the one I can think of off the top of my head, suggest that total volume is also important for building strength.

Well, I was hoping to get a bit of a break but I guess I will just keep on keepin' on. Thanks CowPimp! You really screwed up my day.