Please Repost this Everywhere til We Are Heard:

[Glycomann]

Unions are a solution to a problem that no longer exists in the USA.

Somehow you think human nature has changed in the last 100 years. You and Irish seem to have your minds made up and you both seem to tow the Republican anti-union line. In all likelihood you will both get your wish. Unions will continue to lose ground as they have since the full frontal attack during the Regan administration. Once they are gone you will see an even more precipitous dip in wages. To relate the loss of union influence to wages try to do an ACNOVA analysis of the two or look one up. Union representation drops as real wafges drop. You can find them at the National Bureau of labor statistics. You will see that the slopes of the two curves are nearly identical. This means they are related. Rather than a slow loss in real wages as is seen currently you will see and even faster wage loss in the coming years. The ease at which the anti-union rhetoric is swallowed is exemplified in you and those like you. Soon the average American in a skilled labor employ will have no collective bargaining power to retain the value of his labor. You will have your wish. In fact you are getting your wish and the evidence of the effect of your wishes and those like you are all around you. You should feel satisfied that your once middle class neighbors, more and more, and loosing their value and falling into poverty.

 

[irish_2003]

the american misconception is that the middle class should continue to grow....false....the rich and the poor should both grow......when there is only a middle class then the dollar is devalued tremendously......both the poor and the rich are equally responsible for everything the middle class has.......most of it's "funny money" anyway......time to pay the piper!

 

[DOMS]

Somehow you think human nature has changed in the last 100 years.

Who's talking about human nature? I'm talking about laws that didn't exist when unions were created and needed.

You and Irish seem to have your minds made up and you both seem to tow the Republican anti-union line.

Yes, by all means. Try to label me so you can dismiss me out of hand.

<bit about facts to back up your statement, snipped for brevity>

So post a link to these facts. Also, try to do so from a site that isn't something like IFullyBelieveThatUnionsWillSaveTheWorld.com.

 

[LAM]

the american misconception is that the middle class should continue to grow....false....

actually it would be economic historians from many different country's that point out this very important fact time and time again..

and how exactly does the growth of the poor ever help a society? this is based on history and data from where exactly?

 

[min0 lee]

the american misconception is that the middle class should continue to grow....false....the rich and the poor should both grow......when there is only a middle class then the dollar is devalued tremendously......both the poor and the rich are equally responsible for everything the middle class has.......most of it's "funny money" anyway......time to pay the piper!

Either you're very rich or very poor....you're definitely not middle class.

Most of the Irish I know are pro-union...

 

[Glycomann]

Who's talking about human nature? I'm talking about laws that didn't exist when unions were created and needed.



Yes, by all means. Try to label me so you can dismiss me out of hand.



So post a link to these facts. Also, try to do so from a site that isn't something like IFullyBelieveThatUnionsWillSaveTheWorld.com.

You offer no arguments to support your points. Maybe you can state a set of points and we can stay on point in our debate. However, I am intrigued. Do you think the National Bureau of Labor Statistics is a left wing organization? If that is the case then I have no desire t debate with you.

 

[Big Smoothy]

I have no opinion of the WI issue, because I haven't researched it.

But I found this short video interesting.

YouTube Video

 

[Irishman012]

Well being of the children

Union-No Union, Funny how the teaching of our children comes down to a price tag? Teachers in my state make a VERY good living and have excellent benefits. Strong unions for the teachers, terrible results for the education of students. Most that I have personally known view it as a cushy job. Sad, it should be about the kids. I know there are excellent teachers who care about every student they teach, but that's not why most people become teachers. They become teachers because they get good pay, excellent benefits, and retirement. Go on strike and close the schools, go hide to avoid a vote your going to lose. What about the kids? Pay teachers based on the learning of the children. If you can't handle that, don't become a teacher. Don't like your job, quit. If there aren't any other jobs, probably a good idea to tough it out, or starve. If your poor, work your ass off and make a living, this world, or this country, does not owe you anything. Your alive, that's all the gifts you get. Work and fight to help those who need help, and are willing to help themselves. If you whine and complain to get more you are weak and wasting your talents and your time.

 

[min0 lee]

Union-No Union, Funny how the teaching of our children comes down to a price tag? Teachers in my state make a VERY good living and have excellent benefits. Strong unions for the teachers, terrible results for the education of students. Most that I have personally known view it as a cushy job. Sad, it should be about the kids. I know there are excellent teachers who care about every student they teach, but that's not why most people become teachers. They become teachers because they get good pay, excellent benefits, and retirement. Go on strike and close the schools, go hide to avoid a vote your going to lose. What about the kids? Pay teachers based on the learning of the children. If you can't handle that, don't become a teacher. Don't like your job, quit. If there aren't any other jobs, probably a good idea to tough it out, or starve. If your poor, work your ass off and make a living, this world, or this country, does not owe you anything. Your alive, that's all the gifts you get. Work and fight to help those who need help, and are willing to help themselves. If you whine and complain to get more you are weak and wasting your talents and your time.

wahhh!!!
Who started to fuck with the teachers in the first place???
Walker did!
Should the teachers lay down like dogs?? No.

Blame it on Walker. They agreed to pay into health benefits yet he won't budge.
If you had a job and it was on the line you would probably lay down ass up and let them fuck you.

 

[DOMS]

You offer no arguments to support your points. Maybe you can state a set of points and we can stay on point in our debate. However, I am intrigued. Do you think the National Bureau of Labor Statistics is a left wing organization? If that is the case then I have no desire t debate with you.

You're the one that's all uppity with "liberal" this and "conservative" that. I just asked for a link to a credible source.

Oh, and I'm curious, which union are you in? Or is it a family member that's in the union?

 

[min0 lee]

You're the one all uppity with "liberal" this and "conservative" that. I just asked for a link for a credible source.

Oh, and I'm curious, which union are you in? Or is it a family member that's in the union?

It's not a bad thing to admit one is in the Union at all.
I'm in the Union and I am being honest when I say I wished I was when I was in the private sector.

 

[min0 lee]

I have no opinion of the WI issue, because I haven't researched it.

But I found this short video interesting.

YouTube Video

Wisconsin Governor trying to bust unions in the name of a $130 million dollar budget deficit able to find the money for $140 million dollars in tax breaks for Wal-Mart

 

[DOMS]

It's not a bad thing to admit one is in the Union at all.
I'm in the Union and I am being honest when I say I wished I was when I was in the private sector.

I'm just making it clear that he's not holding any sort of moral high ground.

You know me. If he can provide a truly reliable article from a valid source that unions are good, you know I'll change my tune. If I'm wrong, then I'll change my mindset to fit the facts.

I like debating, but I like learning even more.

 

[Irishman012]

No I don't lay down. You don't know me but disagree and have no intellegent response but that? You try to stray from the facts. The teaching jobs are not on the line, the high pay scale that tax payers must cover is. How many union employees that contribute nothing to childrens education make a living off of the tax payers? Unions to ensure worker safety and a fair wage are great. Unions to extort unsustainable wages and benifits at the expense of the public good should be exterminated.

 

[irish_2003]

the misrepresentation of this bill is mostly from those who are against it.....It in fact, does not take away their unions nor does it permanently strip bargaining rights in every area.....what it states, is that with these proposed cuts (and when i say cuts i don't mean the union simply is compromising and not taking a pay increase...this is one of the first "actual" pay reductions-so it IS about the money), but the unions will not have the ability to "renig" on concessions after this bill is passed......at no time should government ever have a union.....who is their competition? themselves? they unions and protesters are making a huge mistake right now.....the bill WILL BE PASSED on tuesday with or without the cowardly dem senators....there are enough votes to pass it now, but not enough votes to allow the results legally.....those senators will be recall and an emergency session to replace them WILL OCCUR (just like in November when the people of Wisconsin spoke and the silent majority gained power).......there will either be cuts or mass layoffs.....with the layoffs, many will eventually cross their own picket lines or they WILL be replaced.....there is zero correlation that increased wages/benefits create better teachers not only in wisconsin but nationwide......in fact the gap of wages/benefits versus student scores has been widening for the worst over the last 30 years......

I was there yesterday......the number of individuals willing to accept "scab" employment is considerably high because we know the real deal about these individuals.....they live above their means.....when they cry about their insurance and not being able to afford it, i say "then change your plan like everyone else did/does".....they have "cadillac" plans with almost zero copay and almost zero deductible........the "gravy train" ride has finally been taken off it's tracks......

and unfortunately, it's "us versus them" now........and there's plenty more of US than them!!!

 

[min0 lee]

unreasonable demands by union leaders.

Examples:
"No, we won't work for 65 cents a day."
"We demand weekends and holidays off, or paid at those rates."
"We demand that you sell us insurance, as there is no public health care option in the US."
"You are prohibited from firing us all, then hiring some of us back at half salary and calling it a 'layoff'."
"You cannot be allowed to beat and/or shoot us."
"We demand wages in actual currency, rather than company store credit."

It's Commie crap like this that is killing American Business....yeah

 

[irish_2003]

they can protest all they want.......they're all replaceable at any time....THIS BILL WILL BE PASSED and hundreds if not thousands will be in line ready to take their positions if they choose to continue whining

 

[LAM]

why is that that the link between the loss of unions in the US and stagnant wages in most private sector markets in the US is so obvious to some and not to others?

 

[min0 lee]

they can protest all they want.......they're all replaceable at any time....THIS BILL WILL BE PASSED and hundreds if not thousands will be in line ready to take their positions if they choose to continue whining

Why do you wish anyone to lose their job?
Do you want the new contract to have teachers make half of what they make now?
Do you want them to no longer have health benefits?
Would low wages attract the best teachers out there?

Can you answer these questions for me?

 

[LAM]

Would low wages attract the best teachers out there?

according to Gears the high costs of health insurance in the US is why our health insurance in the US is so great for those that can afford it. if this logic was sound (which of course it isn't) would it not apply also to other markets and industry's?

blaming teachers for the decline in education, test scores, etc. is equivalent to the speeder blaming his loss of gas mileage on factors besides his/her lead foot. the decline of the family in the US and the increase in single motherhood is the greatest factor as to why we are seeing US children becoming less and less educated. combine this with unhealthy diets and a general lack of exercise it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure this out...

 

[irish_2003]

Why do you wish anyone to lose their job? because they're benefits program/entitlement program IS what's creating this budget issues....you can't have tax cuts and continue to pay out at the same time.....the unions have strong armed our state long enough.....their alleged "concessions" have never been true cuts....they have always simply been not accepting pay raises...two different things (kinda like Obama's "jobs saved versus job created" falacies)

Do you want the new contract to have teachers make half of what they make now? yes, they like everyone else have the option to change their individual health plans to something they can afford....currently only a very small percentage even have a copay or deductable....their entitlement are only going to get bigger as more retire and outlive what has been paid out

Do you want them to no longer have health benefits?
same answer as above......they have the option to choose a different health plan other than the "cadillac" health plans that the state was strong armed for by their union.......states have no business having a union since there is zero competition....they've had a monopoly and it's been on the tax payers burden for far too long

Would low wages attract the best teachers out there?
there is very little correlation in our state as well as nationally that would suggest higher pay/benefits equal higher test scores....that's why the dems have shot down the bills in the past that would require teachers to be evaluated regularly.....they in essence have been protecting shitty teachers for years based on tenure alone......

Can you answer these questions for me?

i'm fortunate to have a couple state workers and an educator in my family who've been able to provide me with these facts and no additional commentary.......

they're pensions are for every $1 they put in, the taxpayers pay $57.....nobody is worthy of that.....not even when the economy was good....

until there's competition within the public sector, they should not have bargaining "rights" which are actually privileges and not rights.....this has created a "holier than thou" attitude among them versus the rest of the taxpayers and voters in Wisconsin......

 

[DOMS]

why is that that the link between the loss of unions in the US and stagnant wages in most private sector markets in the US is so obvious to some and not to others?

If they're so obvious, how about a link to a credible source?

 

[min0 lee]

If you were to go to college and look into starting a career would you consider a job that...

A- Pays good money but has no benefits
B-Decent wages but has benefits along with job security.
C-Low pay, with no benfits (irish need apply)

 

[irish_2003]

If you were to go to college and look into starting a career would you consider a job that...

A- Pays good money but has no benefits
B-Decent wages but has benefits along with job security.
C-Low pay, with no benfits (irish need apply)

based on the Obama economy that's been given to us, I'd be happy with ANY job right now......fortunately I'm able to afford to go to school and not worry about money due to being fiscally responsible over the years.....

EVERYONE IS REPLACEABLE.....just as how the illegals are taking many jobs, those americans that have been in and out of work and can't get in anywhere WILL be accepting whatever positions they can because they know it's the right thing to do

 

[min0 lee]

because they're benefits program/entitlement program IS what's creating this budget issues..

The link said it all....do you not read?

Wisconsin Governor trying to bust unions in the name of a $130 million dollar budget deficit able to find the money for $140 million dollars in tax breaks for Wal-Mart

I made a few comments about how I don't trust politicians on this thread....here is a guy who gave $140 million dollars in tax break to large multinational corporations and you don't even want to look into why he did this??
He is basically busting down the Unions and some may say they are outdated but they still hold some influence that the employees from the private sector can benefit from.

 

[irish_2003]

The link said it all....do you not read?



I made a few comments about how I don't trust politicians on this thread....here is a guy who gave $140 million dollars in tax break to large multinational corporations and you don't even want to look into why he did this??
He is basically busting down the Unions and some may say they are outdated but they still hold some influence that the employees from the private sector can benefit from.

how does the liberal left expect to keep or bring business into the state by making them spend more?.....the dems can't have it both ways.....you can't trim the budget and spend more at the same time.....apparently none of them so called economists took their basic mathematics course seriously......

 

[min0 lee]

based on the Obama economy that's been given to us, I'd be happy with ANY job right now......

OK...I must have forgotton how great the Bush years were but but I am sure that the economy Obama was handed over by Bush...

fortunately I'm able to afford to go to school and not worry about money due to being fiscally responsible over the years.....

Your still in school? How old are you? Have you ever had a real job?

EVERYONE IS REPLACEABLE.....just as how the illegals are taking many jobs, those americans that have been in and out of work and can't get in anywhere WILL be accepting whatever positions they can because they know it's the right thing to do

Wow..that's pretty cold there. Fire thousands and have them go on unemployment to further drain your state....makes sense.
Hire illegals and people with lesser education to teach because I sure as hell would look into another field if I had all of the diplomas on the wall.

 

[LAM]

If they're so obvious, how about a link to a credible source?

read some sociology studies on the decline of the traditional family in the US.

since 1960 the nuclear family in the US has declined by 50%. considering that the human genome has not changed what other factors can you see besides those that are environmental?

I do not have any particular links saved on this topic as I've been reading about it for the past 15 years or so off and on..

 

[min0 lee]

how does the liberal left expect to keep or bring business into the state by making them spend more?.....the dems can't have it both ways.....you can't trim the budget and spend more at the same time.....apparently none of them so called economists took their basic mathematics course seriously......

Do you know who signed those Union contracts in the last few years?
2 Republicans.
So ummm...ok, blame the liberals. Actual just blame the damn politician.

Blaming the right or the left is tired and old. Blame the actual politician.

 

[irish_2003]

OK...I must have forgotton how great the Bush years were but but I am sure that the economy Obama was handed over by Bush...



Your still in school? How old are you? Have you ever had a real job?


Wow..that's pretty cold there. Fire thousands and have them go on unemployment to further drain your state....makes sense.
Hire illegals and people with lesser education to teach because I sure as hell would look into another field if I had all of the diplomas on the wall.

not suggesting to hire illegals, what i'm saying is that there are many legal americans that can and will fill those positions.....thousands with degrees that are working outside they fields because there simply weren't enough positions and no way to get into them except for joining a union.....there are also thousands who have the basic requirements for most state jobs that can easily be trained in quickly......

once again you're suggesting that i've never worked......i've been in the workforce for over 20 years.....i've been a victim of the unions by not wanting to join their mafia......i'm going "back" to school because I wasn't satisfied fighting everyday for temp positions anymore......so to your comments not only take away any credibility you have (which is typical of liberals...when their points fail, they bash, namecall, and try to get personal)........you've lost this battle, but the fight will go on!!!

and no i wasn't born with a golden spoon......i've been well off as well as dirt poor.....i understand economic cycles and where and when to put my money to make it work for me......nothing is free except the insults from the left......