H.R.4 Bill Passed by GOP Increases Budget Defictit by 21B over 10 years

[min0 lee]

Ouch.....you just had to drop the Paris Hilton bomb.

 

[phosphor]

The logistics meaning that 15% of all income wouldn't be able to even fund our defensive spending. As for inheritance, I am neither for nor against leaving it out if we can swing it. In my personal opinion, I think it should be taxed for the simple fact that it was never earned by the recipient. Now, how can giving handouts to poor people be bad because they didn't have to work for it but handing over $10 million to someone who won the lucky sperm lottery is perfectly fine? How is that teaching someone to work hard. Two words...Paris Hilton.

Your above quote just amazes me. The money was already taxed to death before the person died and you find no remorse because the recipient of who the dead person wanted it to goto didn't earn it? The person who worked for it earned it, it shouldn't have to be 'earned' all over again.

Total tax percentage paid by the above average US citizen, 2009 est. - 57.7%

I think that's enough, thank you. This does not include hidden taxes which jack that percentage up even more.​

 

[ALBOB]

The logistics meaning that 15% of all income wouldn't be able to even fund our defensive spending.

I think you and I are actully agreeing on this one. Like I said, the 15% number is negotiable. Just find the right number and apply it evenly across the board.

As for inheritance, I am neither for nor against leaving it out if we can swing it. In my personal opinion, I think it should be taxed for the simple fact that it was never earned by the recipient. Now, how can giving handouts to poor people be bad because they didn't have to work for it but handing over $10 million to someone who won the lucky sperm lottery is perfectly fine? How is that teaching someone to work hard. Two words...Paris Hilton.

Where do you draw the line? Wedding presents aren't "earned" either. Should the couple have to declare those as income? This is more of a philosophical argument; what does the gubmint have the right to grab and what should it keeps its greedy mits off. I doubt we'll ever come to 100% agreement on that so it's best to just shake hands and agree to disagree.

But you're still a doo doo head.

 

[min0 lee]

Your above quote just amazes me. The money was already taxed to death before the person died and you find no remorse because the recipient of who the dead person wanted it to goto didn't earn it? The person who worked for it earned it, it shouldn't have to be 'earned' all over again.

Total tax percentage paid by the above average US citizen, 2009 est. - 57.7%

I think that's enough, thank you. This does not include hidden taxes which jack that percentage up even more.​

He’s a winner even in death.
George Steinbrenner died six months after the federal estate tax expired, saving his wife and four children about a half billion dollars — and essentially ensuring they can keep the Yankees.
The tax, a 45-percent hit that lapsed in January due to lawmaker bungling, is set to be renewed in 2011 — at 55 percent.
Had he died in 2009, his family would have owed about $500 million; if he died in 2011 the bill would have been $100 million more.
Forbes last year estimated Steinbrenner’s net worth at $1.1 billion.

Read more: Steinbrenner's wife, kids dodge estate tax - NYPOST.com

 

[Dale Mabry]

Your above quote just amazes me. The money was already taxed to death before the person died and you find no remorse because the recipient of who the dead person wanted it to goto didn't earn it? The person who worked for it earned it, it shouldn't have to be 'earned' all over again.

Total tax percentage paid by the above average US citizen, 2009 est. - 57.7%

I think that's enough, thank you. This does not include hidden taxes which jack that percentage up even more.​

Sorry, I feel people should work for their money and there is no way you are going to get me to feel differently. I don't think because someone's parents were successful that they should be handed a golden ticket. Also, that 57.7% number is bogus. The average US citizen pays 12.6% of their income in federal taxes while the top 1% pay a hair over 23%. Unless there is a state somewhere that has a combined sales and income tax of 34% I call bullshit on that number.

Bipartisan source

http://www.taxfoundation.org/news/show/250.html

I think you and I are actully agreeing on this one. Like I said, the 15% number is negotiable. Just find the right number and apply it evenly across the board.



Where do you draw the line? Wedding presents aren't "earned" either. Should the couple have to declare those as income? This is more of a philosophical argument; what does the gubmint have the right to grab and what should it keeps its greedy mits off. I doubt we'll ever come to 100% agreement on that so it's best to just shake hands and agree to disagree.

But you're still a doo doo head.

I would truthfully draw the line with what is being done with the money. If you inherit a company and employ people, or use a large sum of money that you inherit to invest in a business that employs people it shouldn't be taxed. If you are given $10 million as an inheritance and you blow it on stuff that does nobody but you any good you should be taxed. Although, that could probably be accomplished by not taxing the inheritance but a stiff luxury tax on shit over a certain price. Actually, a luxury tax could probably make a straight 15% flat tax downright doable, but there are too many special interests that would never allow it.

 

[ALBOB]

I would truthfully draw the line with what is being done with the money. If you inherit a company and employ people, or use a large sum of money that you inherit to invest in a business that employs people it shouldn't be taxed. If you are given $10 million as an inheritance and you blow it on stuff that does nobody but you any good you should be taxed. Although, that could probably be accomplished by not taxing the inheritance but a stiff luxury tax on shit over a certain price. Actually, a luxury tax could probably make a straight 15% flat tax downright doable, but there are too many special interests that would never allow it.

In essence, treat it like Capitol Gains? If you invest it within a certain amount of time you don't have to pay tax? Depending on the details, I could get behind that. You get to keep the $$$ but at the same time it's doing the economy good.

 

[phosphor]

Sorry, I feel people should work for their money and there is no way you are going to get me to feel differently. I don't think because someone's parents were successful that they should be handed a golden ticket.

I am saddened by your decision. Perhaps this may be better than an Victoria Secret model to you.

Don't forget the kleenex.

 

[DOMS]

Sorry, I feel people should work for their money and there is no way you are going to get me to feel differently.

Wait. So if I work my ass off and become well to do, I shouldn't have the choice to give it all to my children?

Fuck. No.

I'm earning the money with passing it on to my children. I'm an not fucking earning it so that the government can take a huge chunk of it and pass it on to someone else's children.

Fuck! That!

 

[Dark Geared God]

Wait. So if I work my ass off and become well to do, I shouldn't have the choice to give it all to my children?

Fuck. No.

I'm earning the money with passing it on to my children. I'm an not fucking earning it so that the government can take a huge chunk of it and pass it on to someone else's children.

Fuck! That!

Of course the game is rigged
but you can't win if you don't pay to play

 

[Dale Mabry]

In essence, treat it like Capitol Gains? If you invest it within a certain amount of time you don't have to pay tax? Depending on the details, I could get behind that. You get to keep the $$$ but at the same time it's doing the economy good.

Precisely. I would bet you and I agree on most things. I guess in the few hundred years you've been on this rock you've picked up a couple things.

 

[Dale Mabry]

Wait. So if I work my ass off and become well to do, I shouldn't have the choice to give it all to my children?

Fuck. No.

I'm earning the money with passing it on to my children. I'm an not fucking earning it so that the government can take a huge chunk of it and pass it on to someone else's children.

Fuck! That!

My opinion on this is that if it puts you out that much, make less money. You giving your kid $10 mill does nothing to improve our economy, and the gov's job is to do what is best for the economy and people, not for what's best for the individual. If it puts you out that much, there are plenty of other lovely countries around the world you could take your business to, I hear Mexico is nice this time of year. It kinda sounds like you feel your kids are entitled to that money, I thought you people were against entitlements.

 

[phosphor]

Hi Dale. I just wanted to get your take: What did the government do to earn the money.

Seems to me the government is the equivalent to a deadbeat collecting their bi-weekly handouts. He gets off his ass every now and then to get a part-time job and gets fired after he is found stealing from them - but he felt justified, because the owners must be rich. When he is still collecting his checks, he feels the need for more play money, so he starts a side business. He breaks into dead peoples houses to itemize everything from their underwear to couches like he is part of the gestapo. He takes over half of what he judges as a the 'value' and spends it like drunken sailor in a whorehouse. Right now he has credit cards maxed out to over 14,000,000,000,000.00 - but that's ok, there is more to cover that, he just needs to find more ways to cover it from the populace.

But, hey, in the eyes of Dale that's ok because as long as the government gets the money and not the people, it's all good. It's not their money, silly people. It's Mr. Governments and he earned it. Duh.

 

[phosphor]

My opinion on this is that if it puts you out that much, make less money. You giving your kid $10 mill does nothing to improve our economy, and the gov's job is to do what is best for the economy and people, not for what's best for the individual. If it puts you out that much, there are plenty of other lovely countries around the world you could take your business to, I hear Mexico is nice this time of year. It kinda sounds like you feel your kids are entitled to that money, I thought you people were against entitlements.

Dale. I found the catscan they took of your head. That headache you still have is calling for a lobodomy.

 

[troubador]

My opinion on this is that if it puts you out that much, make less money. You giving your kid $10 mill does nothing to improve our economy

This seems like a very perverse morality you wish to force on everyone. If you're worried about others destroying what you've accomplished then accomplish less? Sacrifice your offspring's well being for the sake of unknown others?

 

[DOMS]

My opinion on this is that if it puts you out that much, make less money. You giving your kid $10 mill does nothing to improve our economy, and the gov's job is to do what is best for the economy and people, not for what's best for the individual. If it puts you out that much, there are plenty of other lovely countries around the world you could take your business to, I hear Mexico is nice this time of year. It kinda sounds like you feel your kids are entitled to that money, I thought you people were against entitlements.

It's not entitlement when I earn the money and I decide where it goes.

Do you know what the fuck entitlement is? That's when someone gets money for doing nothing other than being poor. And do you know where the money for that comes from? Me, and people like me. During my lifetime, plenty of my hard earned money will be taken away and given to the poor. They don't need to hit me again on my way out.

And yes, I know my taxes go to things other than the poor.

Also, keep in mind that most, if not all, of the money that I have to give them has already been taxed. The little that might not be taxed would come from tax-deferred vehicles, which will get taxed when it's given away.

There's no reason to tax it again.

 

[Dale Mabry]

Hi Dale. I just wanted to get your take: What did the government do to earn the money.

Seems to me the government is the equivalent to a deadbeat collecting their bi-weekly handouts. He gets off his ass every now and then to get a part-time job and gets fired after he is found stealing from them - but he felt justified, because the owners must be rich. When he is still collecting his checks, he feels the need for more play money, so he starts a side business. He breaks into dead peoples houses to itemize everything from their underwear to couches like he is part of the gestapo. He takes over half of what he judges as a the 'value' and spends it like drunken sailor in a whorehouse. Right now he has credit cards maxed out to over 14,000,000,000,000.00 - but that's ok, there is more to cover that, he just needs to find more ways to cover it from the populace.

But, hey, in the eyes of Dale that's ok because as long as the government gets the money and not the people, it's all good. It's not their money, silly people. It's Mr. Governments and he earned it. Duh.

This seems like a very perverse morality you wish to force on everyone. If you're worried about others destroying what you've accomplished then accomplish less? Sacrifice your offspring's well being for the sake of unknown others?

Ahhh, now I get it, you guys don't know the role of government. The role of government is to do what is right for the country, not the individual. In my eyes, the gov't should provide defense, infrastructure, Education, and I would say health, but I can see most disagree with that. Regardless of what you think are the specifics, the gov should provide the environment for opportunity to every citizen. I see handing over $10 million dollars to someone as an inheritance as no different than welfare. Unless you are a hypocrite, you should too. If you can in some way show me how it is any different, how giving someone $10 million dollars who didn't earn is teaching any sort of a different sense of entitlement than giving someone $300/wk for food and shelter then I am open. Since there is no difference, I don't expect to hear anything of relevance from you. I am fine with not taxing a business that has been inherited, rental properties, or anything that improves our economy, but greatly disagree with handing over a blank check. I am also for mandatory military service for anyone sucking on the taxpayer's teat in the form of welfare. IMO people should work for what they have, if that makes me a socialist then I am a socialist.

It's not entitlement when I earn the money and I decide where it goes.

Do you know what the fuck entitlement is? That's when someone gets money for doing nothing other than being poor. And do you know where the money for that comes from? Me, and people like me. During my lifetime, plenty of my hard earned money will be taken away and given to the poor. They don't need to hit me again on my way out.

And yes, I know my taxes go to things other than the poor.

Also, keep in mind that most, if not all, of the money that I have to give them has already been taxed. The little that might not be taxed would come from tax-deferred vehicles, which will get taxed when it's given away.

There's no reason to tax it again.

Wrong. From wikipedia...

An entitlement is a guarantee of access to benefits based on established rights or by legislation.


The benefit is the inheritance, the established right is birth. YOU may define it a different way, but most would use the dictionary definition. Even though it is not an entitlement to YOU, it is an entitlement to your child. They are entitled to it because they are your child, not because of anything they did. They didn't earn that money the same way the poor didn't earn the handout. You can't have it both ways, you can't say giving money to poor people because they didn't earn it will prevent them from working but giving a rich kid $10 million won't do the same. That kid who sits on that $10 million could live of that money for his/her entire life and never pay a penny in income tax. While I am envious as shit of that kid because taxes are a rip, I'm not going to lie and say he or she is automatically going to become a productive member of society and therefore benefit our society as a whole. And all money has been taxed. The $50 I just spent on beer has been taxed, and I paid sales tax on that purchase, and the company who I bought it from has to pay tax as well as the brewer who made it so saying it shouldn't be taxed because it has already been taxed is bullshit.

 

[min0 lee]

I see what Dale getting. We get a lot of those spoiled brats in NYC wasting away.
There are a few who do become somewhat productive in society instead of an embarrassment.

 

[DOMS]

Wrong. From wikipedia...

An entitlement is a guarantee of access to benefits based on established rights or by legislation.


The benefit is the inheritance, the established right is birth. YOU may define it a different way, but most would use the dictionary definition. Even though it is not an entitlement to YOU, it is an entitlement to your child. They are entitled to it because they are your child, not because of anything they did. They didn't earn that money the same way the poor didn't earn the handout. You can't have it both ways, you can't say giving money to poor people because they didn't earn it will prevent them from working but giving a rich kid $10 million won't do the same. That kid who sits on that $10 million could live of that money for his/her entire life and never pay a penny in income tax. While I am envious as shit of that kid because taxes are a rip, I'm not going to lie and say he or she is automatically going to become a productive member of society and therefore benefit our society as a whole. And all money has been taxed. The $50 I just spent on beer has been taxed, and I paid sales tax on that purchase, and the company who I bought it from has to pay tax as well as the brewer who made it so saying it shouldn't be taxed because it has already been taxed is bullshit.

No, you're wrong. Pull up all the definitions you want, but it doesn't make you right.

My children aren't entitled to getting jack from me. I choose to give it to them. If my children treat my like shit before I die, their not getting one red cent. Where's their entitlement then?

I'll also be leaving money to friends. That's an entitlement as well? They were entitled to it because they were my friends?

Bullshit.

The poor get my money because the government takes it from me and gives it to them just for being poor. My children and friends will get my money because I choose to give it to them based on how I feel about them.

Big fucking difference.

 

[DOMS]

Holy shit!

Global Warming Panic Center!

 

[Dale Mabry]

No, you're wrong. Pull up all the definitions you want, but it doesn't make you right.

My children aren't entitled to getting jack from me. I choose to give it to them. If my children treat my like shit before I die, their not getting one red cent. Where's their entitlement then?

I'll also be leaving money to friends. That's an entitlement as well? They were entitled to it because they were my friends?

Bullshit.

The poor get my money because the government takes it from me and gives it to them just for being poor. My children and friends will get my money because I choose to give it to them based on how I feel about them.

Big fucking difference.

The intent of the giver has nothing to do with whether or not something is an entitlement. I am sure there are people that are fine with paying taxes to give money to the poor, that doesn't mean welfare isn't an entitlement.

 

[Dale Mabry]

Dale. I found the catscan they took of your head. That headache you still have is calling for a lobodomy.

Gotta love conservatives...Only someone who exclusively watches Fox News could brand someone who believes people should work for what they get as a socialist.

 

[DOMS]

The intent of the giver has nothing to do with whether or not something is an entitlement. I am sure there are people that are fine with paying taxes to give money to the poor, that doesn't mean welfare isn't an entitlement.

Intent? I'm talking about coercion. I'm forced to give money to the poor, but I'm not forced to give it to my children and friends.

I'll try again, since you're not getting it.

If you're poor, you're entitled to get support. The money is taken from others and given to you.

If you're my family or friends, you're not entitled to get jack. Nothing is forcibly taken from me and given to them. It's based solely on my choice.

Get it now?

 

[Dale Mabry]

Intent? I'm talking about coercion. I'm forced to give money to the poor, but I'm not forced to give it to my children and friends.

I'll try again, since you're not getting it.

If you're poor, your entitled to get support. The money is taken from others and given to you.

If you're my family or friends, you're not entitled to get jack. Nothing is forcibly taken from me and given to them. It's based solely on my choice.

Get it now?

Again, that has nothing to do with what an entitlement is. Whether it is forcibly taken or not is irrelevant, they are given something without working for it. That is an entitlement, you get something without earning it. I don't care if it is forcibly taken from you. Again, if somebody is fine with being taxed and the money given to he poor does that no longer make it an entitlement? Now, you can say it's your money and you can do what you want with it, but it's still an entitlement. And if the reason for not having welfare is because it doesn't encourage them to work which I agree with, tell me how what you are doing by gifting someone $10 million dollars is going to encourage them to work. That is my point. The role of government is to provide opportunity and protection, NOT keep money in someone's pocket. I'm not saying it's fair, but someone on these boards told me not too long ago that life isn't fair. The role of government isn't fairness, it's keeping the country going. Let's say they finally decide to do something about illegal immigration. There is an inherent cost to doing that and the gov't needs revenue to pay for it. Now, IMO, it is much smarter to tax the people who are actually working a smaller flat rate and hammer these inheritances that aren't doing anyone other than the person inheriting it any good. If they are using it to improve the economy/country make it tax-free. Again, I am not saying what is fair, I am saying what is most intelligent. IMO, a low flat tax would work perfectly if they did this. This would also greatly improve salaries in the middle class, because wealthy people would have less incentive to just hold on to wealth and hand it over to their entitled children not to mention they would be far more likely to invest in a business they could hand over to their kids if it weren't taxed.

 

[DOMS]

Again, that has nothing to do with what an entitlement is. Whether it is forcibly taken or not is irrelevant, they are given something without working for it. That is an entitlement, you get something without earning it.

So, when I give a birthday gift to a friend, it's entitlement? Really?

 

[DOMS]

because wealthy people would have less incentive to just hold on to wealth and hand it over to their entitled children not to mention they would be far more likely to invest in a business they could hand over to their kids if it weren't taxed.

You do understand how wealthy person like Conrad Hilton "unfairly" got his money, right? By using his money to create a business that created untold amounts of jobs for others.

The rich aren't people that stuff their money in banks and do nothing with it. They spend it on things that want. Which supports whole industries, such as the yacht industry. They pay taxes on the land they own. Which also creates jobs for people that take care of it. They also reinvest it companies to make more money.

Look at Warren Buffet. One of the richest men in the world. How did he make money? By buying dying or low performing companies and making them profitable.

Oh, and he's only giving a very, very small amount of money to his posterity. Where's their entitlement?

Really, your perception of the rich is screwed. But I guess not being rich does that to some people.

 

[Dale Mabry]

So, when I give a birthday gift to a friend, it's entitlement? Really?

Come on now, completely different and you know it. I guess if a girl gives me herpes that's an entitlement too.

You do understand how wealthy person like Conrad Hilton "unfairly" got his money, right? By using his money to create a business that created untold amounts of jobs for others.

The rich aren't people that stuff their money in banks and do nothing with it. They spend it on things that want. Which supports whole industries, such as the yacht industry. They pay taxes on the land they own. Which also creates jobs for people that take care of it. They also reinvest it companies to make more money.

Look at Warren Buffet. One of the richest men in the world. How did he make money? By buying dying or low performing companies and making them profitable.

Oh, and he's only giving a very, very small amount of money to his posterity. Where's their entitlement?

Really, your perception of the rich is screwed. But I guess not being rich does that to some people.

I don't think Conrad Hilton unfairly got his money. While his parents were alive they gave him money to start a BUSINESS, I am fine with that. In fact, he only left half a million to each of his 2 children and $10k to nieces and nephews and gave the rest to his foundation. Smart dude, his kids were successful and his son Barron will be leaving 97% of his wealth to the same foundation. How much is he worth again? Not bad for someone who only got to start with $500k.

Warren Buffet, also a smart man, earned everything on his own and is giving away 99% of his wealth upon death. I guarantee his kids will be both productive and successful.

IMO, these guys are smart, that much concentrated wealth is not a good thing. I agree that rich people buy things, let them buy whatever they want. How many yachts can 1% of the population buy anyway? Buy as many gifts as you want to give to your children, give them a business, I don't care. That stuff all provides jobs and opportunity for other people, money sitting in the bank doesn't. It just sits there until they can piss it away, and $10 million can last a very long time. It is absolutely beyond stupid to let someone keep $10 million dollars and expect them to become productive just because you gave them that money. If they are going to succeed they will do so regardless of what you leave them. If you need a $10 million head start chances are you're not that great anyway, that just provides a nice cushion for you when you fail and just delays the inevitable.

 

[min0 lee]

This is like a ping pong game...I can see both their points. So why is my head moving this way?

 

[Dale Mabry]

This is like a ping pong game...I can see both their points. So why is my head moving this way?

I had a talk with my folks not too long ago about this same stuff. I told them to spend their money on themselves, they earned it. Not being religious, I believe you should enjoy the fruits of your labor, because when you're dead you're worm food.

I agree hitting inheritances is unfair, but so is being born in a slum to a whore. The gov't is not about fairness, it's about what's good for the country.

 

[DOMS]

Come on now, completely different and you know it. I guess if a girl gives me herpes that's an entitlement too.

Is not different. Just because you want to believe so, doesn't make it so.

I give a gift at a birthday, I give a gift at my death. How are they different? Come on, spin it for me.

 

[Dale Mabry]

Is not different. Just because you want to believe so, doesn't make it so.

I give a gift at a birthday, I give a gift at my death. How are they different? Come on, spin it for me.

$10 million dollars is more than $13k, which is the amount you are allowed to gift without being taxed. If you give a gift more than that and it's not claimed you are breaking the law.

As for whether or not it is an entitlement, imo by definition it is. Although, wrt to the word "entitlement", I have been informed that SS, Medicare, and Medicaid are the only entitlements according to the gov't. You pay in so you are entitled to it, welfare is not considered an entitlement because you don't pay in, so it is just considered a handout.