I'm training a newbie. Need a little advice pls.

[Big G]

OK.. So.. I've been training a 24yr-old guy (that I work with) for the past couple of months. He's a complete newbie (never been in a gym before) and wants to lose 50lb.

I've been talking to him about HIIT, counting calories, compound exercises (etc) and helping him with his form for squats, rows, deadlifts etc. He's coming along nicely, and he's enjoying himself.

Current program (Horizontal, Legs, Vertical):
Mon: 30-40min cardio, then Pullups(3x5), Military(3x6-8), Shrugs(3x8-10)
Wed -30-40min cardio, then Squats(2x15-20), Dealifts(3x8-10)
Fri - 30-40min cardio, then Bench(3x6-8), T-bar Rows(3x6-8), Dips(3x6-8).

I've got him box-squatting at the moment because without something to sit on his knees go waaay in front of his toes at the base of the movement and he complains of knee pain. With the box there however, his form looks pretty good (well, not awful anyway). He's been working towards 20rep sets which, at weights around 100lb, is like an intense cardio workout for him.

I want to change the program up and start exposing him to some heavier weights with perhaps some linear periodization gradually dropping the reps from 8-10 to 4-6 over the next couple of months.

Considering the following (Pull, Legs, Push)...
Mon: 30-40min cardio, then BO BB Rows, Chins, Shrugs
Tues: 30-40min cardio, then 1x20rep squats, deadlifts, Squat lockouts.
Wed:30-40min cardio, then Bench, Military, Bench lockouts.

I realize it's not significantly different than we've been doing, but the lockouts will add a lot of weight. I also realize some circuit-training, short RIs, supersets, or wotnot would probably be more suitable for weight-loss, but I'm (re)training with him too and I only have a few pounds to lose. He's also already getting a kick out of his muscles beginning to pop and I figured it'd keep him motivated if he continues to see strength/muscle gains, plus I'm sure he'd get a kick out of the extra weight involved in lockouts.

Your thoughts, pah-leeeze!

Thx much,
G.

 

[Big G]

Omitted to mention additional HIIT cardio days between resistance training days.

Considering some post-workout cardio too (but not leg day!).

 

[Powermaster]

Why the cardio prior to resistance training?

There's been many studies proving cardio (HIIT especially) post resistance training is more beneficial.

 

[Big G]

Why the cardio prior to resistance training?

There's been many studies proving cardio (HIIT especially) post resistance training is more beneficial.

He gets off work ½hr before me, so he fills the time with cardio. Plus, I like a good run for 10-15 minutes before I workout, so he's on the elliptical during that time too. Figured it can't hurt. Considering adding some cardio aftrwards too, but not leg day. Generally struggling to walk after that!

More concerned about the lockouts and lowering his rep range progressively down into the 2-4rep range (two months from now) to get him accustomed to heavier weights. I'm thinking it's probably OK, but figured I'd bounce it off you guys in case my thinking was off. Been a while since I've been (or trained) a complete newbie.

 

[Powermaster]

Sounds like a reasonable way to kill some time for him. At least he's warmed up.

 

[Cork]

I'm not sure something like lockouts would really benefit him as much. Those are specialized technique to advance muscle and tendon strength. Considering he is a beginner, he will get better gains from full compound lifts. Maybe if he starts to plateau on squats, do the lockouts, but wait until then. For now I'd add in lunges or split squats.

 

[Big G]

I'm not sure something like lockouts would really benefit him as much. Those are specialized technique to advance muscle and tendon strength. Considering he is a beginner, he will get better gains from full compound lifts. Maybe if he starts to plateau on squats, do the lockouts, but wait until then. For now I'd add in lunges or split squats.

I'm not trusting my old knees with lunges or split squats (and we workout together), plus this kid's geeking for weight. I figured the squat lockouts would be a good core workout for him (at the very least) and get him adapting to having some decent weight on his shoulders. We've been doing dips, but I thought the bench lockouts would make a nice alternative, again adapting him to some decent weight. I know he'd get a kick out out of it. Shrugs are his favorite exercise so far and that's only because he can use more weight than any other execise.

Hey! While I'm at it... Any thoughts on how to get his knees behind his toes when he's squatting. Like I said above, his form's fairly good (well not awful) when he's box squatting, but take the box away and his knees go so far forward. I don't remember having that trouble, so I'm not sure what to suggest. Have him practice squats with no weight with his toes touching a knee-high wall at home (or something)?

 

[pebble]

I'm not trusting my old knees with lunges or split squats (and we workout together), plus this kid's geeking for weight. I figured the squat lockouts would be a good core workout for him (at the very least) and get him adapting to having some decent weight on his shoulders. We've been doing dips, but I thought the bench lockouts would make a nice alternative, again adapting him to some decent weight. I know he'd get a kick out out of it. Shrugs are his favorite exercise so far and that's only because he can use more weight than any other execise.

Adding in some unilateral work would be a smart idea. I agree with cork on that.

Hey! While I'm at it... Any thoughts on how to get his knees behind his toes when he's squatting. Like I said above, his form's fairly good (well not awful) when he's box squatting, but take the box away and his knees go so far forward. I don't remember having that trouble, so I'm not sure what to suggest. Have him practice squats with no weight with his toes touching a knee-high wall at home (or something)?

Take an inch or two off of his femurs. In all seriousness there is no issue with the femur moving pass the toes as long as the rest of his form is correct. It may be his biomechanical necessity due to lever (limbs) lengths to keep the center of gravity (weight) distributed evenly over his base of support.

It is a myth that knees should not pass the toes while squatting, but for most can be a good guideline/que to keep the squatter aiming to sit back (bend at the hips first) instead of starting the movement with a bend at the knees.

 

[Big G]

Hey, Pebbles! Thanks for chirping in. Much appreciated.

You're probably both right about the unilateral work. Maybe on the next program I'll try to talk him into doing some of that while I'm busy doing other things. With him in his early 20s and me almost 40, it's tough trying to design something we can do together. I, for example, get pains in my knees after a dozen lunges with no weights. It was the same 2 years ago (pre-surgeries) when I was squatting over 300lb without the slightest twinge from my knees. My knees clearly don't like that movement, and I listen to them.

Regarding HIS knees though, it's true what you said about femur length but, in this case, I'm pretty sure it's not the case. He can pound through 18 box-squat reps with 120lb and ends up just out of breath. Take the box away (and 20lb off the bar) and six reps in he re-racks the bar due to knee pain. Maybe it's a flexibility thing, or something. I don't know. I worry about him.

I can remember, many moons ago, holding onto my refrigerator door-handle, practicing squats, wondering how people could possibly keep their knees back that far, with weight on their heels, and not fall backwards. It didn't make sense at the time but I kept practicing. Nowadays it's a completely natural movement. But I can't seem to put whatever lessons I learned into practical advice. I can't see advising him to just do partial squats but, if his knees hurt, something's clearly wrong.

 

[pebble]

Have him practice body weight squats facing a wall. Have his toes an inch or toe away form the wall.

It does sound like a flexibility / mobility issue. Continue to decrease the box by an inch or two every week or so. Progress his range I motion not the weight.

 

[Big G]

Have him practice body weight squats facing a wall. Have his toes an inch or toe away form the wall.

It does sound like a flexibility / mobility issue. Continue to decrease the box by an inch or two every week or so. Progress his range I motion not the weight.

Perfect. I was thinking the exact same thing. Next program we're doing 20rep squats throughout, but Im going to take some of the weight off and lower the box.

I just tried squatting with my toes an inch from the wall though, and I lose my balance because I can't get my torso far enough forward. Maybe I'll make him a knee-high board that he could practice squatting in front of. Can you recommend any additional stretching exercises that might help?

 

[stfuandliftbtch]

Perfect. I was thinking the exact same thing. Next program we're doing 20rep squats throughout, but Im going to take some of the weight off and lower the box.

I just tried squatting with my toes an inch from the wall though, and I lose my balance because I can't get my torso far enough forward. Maybe I'll make him a knee-high board that he could practice squatting in front of. Can you recommend any additional stretching exercises that might help?

you loose your balance squatting yet you are teaching someone how to squat?

 

[stfuandliftbtch]

OK.. So.. I've been training a 24yr-old guy (that I work with) for the past couple of months. He's a complete newbie (never been in a gym before) and wants to lose 50lb.

I've been talking to him about HIIT, counting calories, compound exercises (etc) and helping him with his form for squats, rows, deadlifts etc. He's coming along nicely, and he's enjoying himself.

Current program (Horizontal, Legs, Vertical):
Mon: 30-40min cardio, then Pullups(3x5), Military(3x6-8), Shrugs(3x8-10)
Wed -30-40min cardio, then Squats(2x15-20), Dealifts(3x8-10)
Fri - 30-40min cardio, then Bench(3x6-8), T-bar Rows(3x6-8), Dips(3x6-8).

I've got him box-squatting at the moment because without something to sit on his knees go waaay in front of his toes at the base of the movement and he complains of knee pain. With the box there however, his form looks pretty good (well, not awful anyway). He's been working towards 20rep sets which, at weights around 100lb, is like an intense cardio workout for him.

I want to change the program up and start exposing him to some heavier weights with perhaps some linear periodization gradually dropping the reps from 8-10 to 4-6 over the next couple of months.

Considering the following (Pull, Legs, Push)...
Mon: 30-40min cardio, then BO BB Rows, Chins, Shrugs
Tues: 30-40min cardio, then 1x20rep squats, deadlifts, Squat lockouts.
Wed:30-40min cardio, then Bench, Military, Bench lockouts.

I realize it's not significantly different than we've been doing, but the lockouts will add a lot of weight. I also realize some circuit-training, short RIs, supersets, or wotnot would probably be more suitable for weight-loss, but I'm (re)training with him too and I only have a few pounds to lose. He's also already getting a kick out of his muscles beginning to pop and I figured it'd keep him motivated if he continues to see strength/muscle gains, plus I'm sure he'd get a kick out of the extra weight involved in lockouts.

Your thoughts, pah-leeeze!

Thx much,
G.

thats good your getting him motivated...but lockouts in for a beginner shouldn't been done. he probably can't even bench over 200 since he just started lifting. its not like you are training a professional powerlifter. you are just going to kill his joints.

 

[johnniejr243]

whats his current wait and race? because if he s a heavy weight black man you need to go way easy
for a while. they have more risk of heart attacks! (rip ty, miss you buddy)

 

[stfuandliftbtch]

whats his current wait and race? because if he s a heavy weight black man you need to go way easy
for a while. they have more risk of heart attacks! (rip ty, miss you buddy)

*weight, not wait.

Being black is not a risk factor, his age is far more important. But considering the fact he is doing deadlifts and squats, I highly doubt he is very old.

 

[Big G]

you loose your balance squatting yet you are teaching someone how to squat?

With my toes 1" from a wall, as Pebbles suggested, I can not squat bodyweight, no. My head (& possibly upper torso) needs to go ahead of my toes for weight distribution over my heals, and the wall's in the way. Is it possible to squat 1" from a wall (to parallel I mean)?

thats good your getting him motivated...but lockouts in for a beginner shouldn't been done. he probably can't even bench over 200 since he just started lifting. its not like you are training a professional powerlifter. you are just going to kill his joints.

Hmm.. Fair enough. This brings me to another area of interest tho... His chest isn't getting stronger. He's adding pounds to T-bar rows & dips, but I resorted to pulling out my 1/2lb & 1/4lb weights out to add an extra few ounces to the bar so his chest training would be somewhat progressive. Last workout he blew 5lb past that sticking point, but I was thinking of having him bench only the lower 1/2 of the movement in an effort to keep more tension on his chest (rather than triceps), then do lockouts for triceps. I can see that being hard on his joints, but anyone's jump to those kind of weights could potentially be too, right? And he is a testosterone-pumped 24yr old.

As it happens, I strained my right anterior delt benching on Friday so I'm probably not going to be up for bench lockouts any time soon myself. And, with the way he squats, I should probably hold out on partial squats too.

Anyone's thoughts on a suitable (caloric deficit) strength/cutting program (we can share) would be very welcome.

Thx all.

 

[thebutcher]

I'm not trusting my old knees with lunges or split squats (and we workout together), plus this kid's geeking for weight. I figured the squat lockouts would be a good core workout for him (at the very least) and get him adapting to having some decent weight on his shoulders. We've been doing dips, but I thought the bench lockouts would make a nice alternative, again adapting him to some decent weight. I know he'd get a kick out out of it. Shrugs are his favorite exercise so far and that's only because he can use more weight than any other execise.

Hey! While I'm at it... Any thoughts on how to get his knees behind his toes when he's squatting. Like I said above, his form's fairly good (well not awful) when he's box squatting, but take the box away and his knees go so far forward. I don't remember having that trouble, so I'm not sure what to suggest. Have him practice squats with no weight with his toes touching a knee-high wall at home (or something)?

try a zercher squat with light weight. maybe even just the bar for starters. the zercher will accustom an individual to recognize what its like to drive through the heel and get accustomed to the feeling of sitting back with hips instead of just bending at the knee due to the awkward weight displacement. I've recomemded this to a few people ive helped in the gym as well. also helps with the knee past the toes issue.
- ive also found that a wider stance helps as well. an added benifit to a wider stance is a deeper ROM which recruits more muscle fiber. always a plus.

 

[pebble]

With my toes 1" from a wall, as Pebbles suggested, I can not squat bodyweight, no. My head (& possibly upper torso) needs to go ahead of my toes for weight distribution over my heals, and the wall's in the way. Is it possible to squat 1" from a wall (to parallel I mean)?

You should be able to if you have adequate flexibility/mobility. I just had my girlfriend try and she did it without a problem. I know I can also do it easily. It looks like you have some issues to work on.

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

I'm not trusting my old knees with lunges or split squats

Forward Lunge

The problem with lunging forward is the individuals end up driving their knee forward.

Step Back

The remedy to driving the knee forward in a lung to step back. Stepping backward allows the shin to remain perpendicular to the floor.

Thus, the knees are NOT drive forward but remain in a neutral position.

Split Squats

The key to maintaining a neutral position in the Split Squat is you front foot position need to be in a very forward position to you back foot that is anchored behind you.

This position insures that you do not drive you knee forward.

Any thoughts on how to get his knees behind his toes when he's squatting. Like I said above, his form's fairly good (well not awful) when he's box squatting, but take the box away and his knees go so far forward.

Push Back

He needs to think about pushing his butt back and then do it. He needs to start with an light weight bar on his back and focus on pushing back until it becomes an automatic response.

Kenny Croxdale

 

[CowPimp]

Regarding his squat form and knee pain, there are a lot of things that can go wrong that people don't even notice, and lots of questions to ask to help identify the issue.

Are his knees going valgus at all? Is there any anterior weight bearing? What's the ratio of hip to knee flexion/extension throughout the movement? Is his form dramatically improved by providing additional heel lift? At what point during the lift does the pain begin? Are you sure the box squatting fixes his form, or is it reducing the range of motion that takes away the knee pain? Does he get any pelvic tilt in the bottom position? Things like that.

 

[Big G]

Regarding his squat form and knee pain, there are a lot of things that can go wrong that people don't even notice, and lots of questions to ask to help identify the issue.

Are his knees going valgus at all? Is there any anterior weight bearing? What's the ratio of hip to knee flexion/extension throughout the movement? Is his form dramatically improved by providing additional heel lift? At what point during the lift does the pain begin? Are you sure the box squatting fixes his form, or is it reducing the range of motion that takes away the knee pain? Does he get any pelvic tilt in the bottom position? Things like that.

Shit. He needs more help than I can offer him then. And I'm all he's got. Poor Bastard!

 

[CowPimp]

Shit. He needs more help than I can offer him then. And I'm all he's got. Poor Bastard!

Well, if he's ever in the DC area drop me a PM. I'll give him a free assessment. You are helping him a lot though, seriously. You've given him lots of good advice.

 

[Big G]

Well, if he's ever in the DC area drop me a PM. I'll give him a free assessment. You are helping him a lot though, seriously. You've given him lots of good advice.

Very kind. Thanks.

Hey... What are your thoughts on Zercher squats (referenced above)? I'm tempted to keep him box-squatting for the next 6 weeks, but get him doing 20rep sets, then make a knee-high board for him to practice squatting with a broom-handle at home.

 

[Big G]

You should be able to if you have adequate flexibility/mobility. I just had my girlfriend try and she did it without a problem. I know I can also do it easily. It looks like you have some issues to work on.

OK, Pebbles... This is bugging me. This really might be a case of needing to lop a few inches of my femurs. There's just no way I'm keeping my balance even if I slide my face down the wall. There's not enough weight in front of my heels to offset the weight of my ass & thighs (spare me the jokes. bf is around 10%) poking out from behind my heels.

I forgot my camera today, but I'm going to youtube me doing squats in a rack (next week), and again without weight up against a wall. Do you think I could talk you into letting me know your thoughts once the videos are uploaded?