Abortion

[bio-chem]

Life doesn't begin at conception. Life began billions of years ago, and is a continuous process that keeps rolling along. - George Carlin

This debate is retarded by religion...an institution completely devoid of rational thought and basic human logic. This debate is about as interesting as watching a monkey fucking a football.

boy or girl monkey?

i think its safe to say i'm one of the more conservative, religious voices on this thread. having said that, i dont feel roe v wade should be overturned. its law as presently constituted and that is that. i understand that not everyone will live by the same set of rules i live by, yet i think this country can do more to limit abortions here. abortion regardless of religious beliefs is killing a child. thats pretty sick in my book. like divorce it shows a cowardice towards responsibility and commitment. the selfishness of people i think is a major destroying factor in our society.

 

[clemson357]

Yeah, it is funny how liberals will tell you that a 24 hour waiting period for an abortion is unconstitutional (God forbid the woman change her mind,) yet a five day waiting period for a gun is not.

 

[Scarface30]

when I was in high school I saw 20-too-many girls who actually had a future get pregnant, drop out of school and not do anything.

I have also seen a relative of mine have 2 kids that she shouldn't have, and she and her boyfriend do absolutely no parenting whatsoever. her kids spend 3-4 days at a time at my aunt and uncle's (her parents), I'm actually surprised the kids know who their real parents are. when the kids get toys for Christmas and stuff their father keeps them in the package and puts them away because he thinks that's what should be done.

if you can't tell, I'm completely for abortion, it would prevent many ruined lives and also prevent kids from growing up in families without loving and caring parents. who really wants to see children grow up in broken families anyway? most people say abortion is wrong, but would you much rather see a kid grow up in that type of house, or worse?

 

[busyLivin]

when I was in high school I saw 20-too-many girls who actually had a future get pregnant, drop out of school and not do anything.

I have also seen a relative of mine have 2 kids that she shouldn't have, and she and her boyfriend do absolutely no parenting whatsoever. her kids spend 3-4 days at a time at my aunt and uncle's (her parents), I'm actually surprised the kids know who their real parents are. when the kids get toys for Christmas and stuff their father keeps them in the package and puts them away because he thinks that's what should be done.

if you can't tell, I'm completely for abortion, it would prevent many ruined lives and also prevent kids from growing up in families without loving and caring parents. who really wants to see children grow up in broken families anyway? most people say abortion is wrong, but would you much rather see a kid grow up in that type of house, or worse?

this argument has never.... ever.... made any kind of sense to me. You're saying you'd be prepared to go up to a kid in a bad home & tell them they are better off dead? really?

I agree not everyone would make a good parent, but could you tell me how killing the baby is in any way a better option that giving it up for adoption?

Your relatives might be bad parents, but they are much better than the millions of cowards who killed under the guise of a "woman's right" to escape their responsibilities.

 

[bio-chem]

this argument has never.... ever.... made any kind of sense to me. You're saying you'd be prepared to go up to a kid in a bad home & tell them they are better off dead? really?

I agree not everyone would make a good parent, but could you tell me how killing the baby is in any way a better option that giving it up for adoption?

Your relatives might be bad parents, but they are much better than the millions of cowards who killed to escape their responsibilities.

got to agree here

 

[Scarface30]

yes, I'd also much rather have someone put their child up for adoption but something tells me if adoption was so easy and available that the topic/act of abortion would be almost non-existent.

 

[busyLivin]

yes, I'd also much rather have someone put their child up for adoption but something tells me if adoption was so easy and available that the topic/act of abortion would be almost non-existent.

I have no sympathy for people who have/perform abortions. If someone finds it easier to kill than to do a little work to preserve a human life, they are not someone I would like to know.

And to your point, I disagree. People perform abortions because it's quick & easy, not because adoption is too hard. They care about their lives & how it affects them, not about the life or well being of the baby.

I never claimed anything was easy... but how abortion became such a widespread socially acceptable "solution" blows my mind.

 

[crazy_enough]

I have no sympathy for people who have/perform abortions. If someone finds it easier to kill than to do a little work to preserve a human life, they are not someone I would like to know.

And to your point, I disagree. People perform abortions because it's quick & easy, not because adoption is too hard. They care about their lives & how it affects them, not about the life or well being of the baby.

I never claimed anything was easy... but how abortion became such a widespread socially acceptable "solution" blows my mind.

I disagree with the above. It is easy to generalize, but in most cases, a child is much better off never being born, than to be subjected to what life has to offer if it were brought into this world unwillingly. Furthermore, rape, violence and abuse situations absolutely warrant a right to abortion.

However, while I am clearly pro choice, I hate how abortion has become "contraception". Teenage girls getting 2 or 3 of them by the age of 20. Men not giving a shit about protecting themselves with the assumption that girls will just get an abortion anyways, etc. That shit sickens me!!

 

[goob]

I have no sympathy for people who have/perform abortions. If someone finds it easier to kill than to do a little work to preserve a human life, they are not someone I would like to know.

And to your point, I disagree. People perform abortions because it's quick & easy, not because adoption is too hard. They care about their lives & how it affects them, not about the life or well being of the baby.

I never claimed anything was easy... but how abortion became such a widespread socially acceptable "solution" blows my mind.

The world is vastly overpopulated as it is. Bringing another neglected and unwanted kid into the world just is bad for the kid, and those with the responsibilty to look after it.

A child brought up in troubled circumstances can easily develop psychological problems, ranging from mild to extreme. Not having a nurturing and caring environment can be very damaging to a childs progress.

At the stage that abortions are performed, the fetus is in a early stage of development, and in essence is not a person as such yet.

Everyone should have the choice, not be dictated to by social control masquerading as religion.

 

[KelJu]

Who said shit about religion?

I just think it's dumb as fuck that many people who advocate abortion are against killing murderers.

I worded my comment in a very dickheadish way. I thought about it hours later when I had left work, and wish I hadn't made it sound like an attack against Christianity.

It just gets annoying to hear people say a fetus is a life, life is precious, and abortions are some horrible act. But then that only counts if the fetus is inside an American woman. Morality in this country only extends to a certain select few people, and that is just mind blowing to me. Its like the drafters of the constitution saying all men are created equal, but then they treat Native Americans and Blacks like they are subhuman or farm equipment. Its just another example of total Hypocrisy.

Carry it another step and typically the same people that fight for the life of a fetus doesn't want to provide health care once they are born. Again, just like Carlin said, "if your prenatal your fine, if your preschool, your fucked!"

 

[DOMS]

I worded my comment in a very dickheadish way. I thought about it hours later when I had left work, and wish I hadn't made it sound like an attack against Christianity.

Knock it all you want.

Carry it another step and typically the same people that fight for the life of a fetus doesn't want to provide health care once they are born. Again, just like Carlin said, "if your prenatal your fine, if your preschool, your fucked!"

Of course, because giving shit away is the answer. Let's not make people work for their livelihood. I mean, it's worked great for the Indians.

The last thing Americans need is another free ride.

Plus, if minorities didn't treat their lives like shit, there wouldn't be so many unwanted pregnancies or fatherless families. The vast majority of white children put up for a adoption (at birth), get adopted by white families. Who's fault is it that minorities don't adopt from their own races?

But you're right, why bother with the whole "sanctity of life" shit. I can think of a lot of people in this country that I'd like to take off the mortal coil.

 

[Witchblade]

this argument has never.... ever.... made any kind of sense to me. You're saying you'd be prepared to go up to a kid in a bad home & tell them they are better off dead? really?

You fail to see the difference between dead and unborn.

I agree not everyone would make a good parent, but could you tell me how killing the baby is in any way a better option that giving it up for adoption?

You fail to see the extreme pain it is to be pregnant for nine monthsand actually receiving a child.

Your relatives might be bad parents, but they are much better than the millions of cowards who killed under the guise of a "woman's right" to escape their responsibilities.

 

[Witchblade]

Not differentiating between preventing a clump of cells from growing into a child, without awareness of its surroundings, without the ability to independently live, and murdering a man is just plain retarded.

 

[KelJu]

Knock it all you want.



Of course, because giving shit away is the answer. Let's not make people work for their livelihood. I mean, it's worked great for the Indians.

The last thing Americans need is another free ride.

I'm talking about kids, not adults. Yes, a 6 year old deserves a free ride in this country, even a minority 6 year old.

 

[DOMS]

I'm talking about kids, not adults. Yes, a 6 year old deserves a free ride in this country, even a minority 6 year old.

Why?

 

[KelJu]

boy or girl monkey?

i think its safe to say i'm one of the more conservative, religious voices on this thread. having said that, i dont feel roe v wade should be overturned. its law as presently constituted and that is that. i understand that not everyone will live by the same set of rules i live by, yet i think this country can do more to limit abortions here. abortion regardless of religious beliefs is killing a child. thats pretty sick in my book. like divorce it shows a cowardice towards responsibility and commitment. the selfishness of people i think is a major destroying factor in our society.

Again, my comment was worded unnecessarily rudely. You are a 100% correct. Both, divorce and abortion is usually a cowardly decision. Most people do not believe in sticking to their commitments. The byproduct of an irresponsible couple who get pregnant before they are emotionally and financially stable has terrible consequences for both the child and society.

I honestly believe that people who are pro-life should adopt some of these unwanted and unloved children growing up in the foster care system. Until then, I think their opinion blows goats.

 

[DOMS]

I honestly believe that people who are pro-life should adopt some of these unwanted and unloved children growing up in the foster care system. Until then, I think their opinion blows goats.

Minorities aside, I don't think you understand how most children wind up in foster homes.

 

[KelJu]

Minorities aside, I don't think you understand how most children wind up in foster homes.

I think I have a good idea, but expand on what you were saying. I am curious to know you thoughts on how children end up in foster care.

 

[busyLivin]

I honestly believe that people who are pro-life should adopt some of these unwanted and unloved children growing up in the foster care system. Until then, I think their opinion blows goats.

Racking my brain here, and I can't understand how that makes any kind of sense.

 

[busyLivin]

Not differentiating between preventing a clump of cells from growing into a child, without awareness of its surroundings, without the ability to independently live, and murdering a man is just plain retarded.

It's not retarded.. it's a fundamental difference in opinion.

Are babies any more aware of their surroundings or capable of living independently when they are born?

 

[maniclion]

Racking my brain here, and I can't understand how that makes any kind of sense.

Pro-Lifer's want every single baby to have a chance at life but what chance does an orphan have if they grow up poor in an orphanage with no family loving them? If they want abortion gone who is going to take care of the sudden abundance of children, are they going to adopt a handful and give them a good running chance at life or just feel warm and cozy that a life wasn't snuffed out but is sitting lonely and scared in an orphanage wondering why life has been so cruel to them....

Do Pro-lifers think that if there is no abortion suddenly people will take responsibility of the child they really don't want in the first place, HA! You do away with abortion and all you'll find is thousands of babies on doorsteps and in dumpsters.....

 

[brogers]

45+ million unborn murdered every year.

I'm not sure how society became so perverted to refer to murder as a matter of "personal choice." Only an extremely arrogant person could say something like "oh, it's better for that human to be killed before they take their first breath than to live with crappy parents." An equally sick argument being "oh a pregnancy will ruin their lives!" Thus, their irresponsbility grants them the authority to murder their offspring. Such people believe that they can decide if someone's life is worthwhile better than the person his or her self can. I wish I could apply the same logic to some people who have this belief. In my opinion, you're just an inconveinence on the world, contributing to overpopulation. Your life is worthless and you deserve to be killed. How's that sound?

Indeed, I am all for choice. Choose to not have children if you want. Don't have sex or use birth control, your choice. Your ability to choose happens long before a child is conceived. Don't try to choose if someone else is worthy of living when they haven't even had a chance to screw up yet.

 

[ALBOB]

Life begins at the point of conception. No one can deny that after a human being is conceived it will develop into the very same being as those debating this issue.

Really? Just because that's YOUR OPINION then "no one can deny" it? Wow, must be nice to be omnipotent.

I'm with clemson, I'm pro death. I support a woman's (and father if he's in the picture) to choose, I support the death penalty and I support the right to shoot any piece of shit who tries to steal my stuff. Yayyyyyyy death.

 

[brogers]

Not differentiating between preventing a clump of cells from growing into a child, without awareness of its surroundings, without the ability to independently live, and murdering a man is just plain retarded.

Perhaps you can develop a checklist for us so that we can know when something qualifies as "human enough" in your book. I suppose a man in a coma for 9 months, on life support with barely any function in his brain / organs can be killed without consequence by his relatives since he inconveinences them. It doesn't matter if it is known that he would awake from his coma and be 100% normal, functional, with all characteristics of full-grown healthy people in 9 months, his life during that specific period of time is worthless, and is thus is devoid of the right to live at any period after that time.

But please, prepare a checklist for us. Perhaps if I murdered someone who was handicapped I should only be sentenced to 20 years in prison instead of life, or 15 years in prison for murdering someone who was 80 years old. Since they might be devoid of some of the characteristics you might ascribe as 'human,' their life would have less value than say, a healthy 30 year old. You're extremely arrogant to think you are qualified to determine what is 'human enough.' It is not a choice for you to make.

 

[goob]

Personally, I think there's a major difference between an early stage fetus and a fully developed human being. The main one being consciousness. Is a 10 week old fetus aware of itself?

You could say this about a coma patient, with one crucial difference. The coma patient may not be aware of themselves, but they once were, and could be again. In other words, they have fully developed, the 10 week fetus has not.

You made some good points brogers, but I have to agree with Witch, at what point does a collection of cells become a human being?

 

[DOMS]

I think I have a good idea, but expand on what you were saying. I am curious to know you thoughts on how children end up in foster care.

I went to a high school were kids from foster care were sent. The vast majority of the kids there weren't in the system from birth. Most of them wound up there when they were in their low teens and their parents had raised them like shit. So, they "couldn't be controlled", and ended up in the foster system.

And none of them, at least that I ever heard of, were from an adopted family. They all had lived with their biological parents.

 

[DOMS]

You made some good points brogers, but I have to agree with Witch, at what point does a collection of cells become a human being?

What's so hard to understand? It happens at the moment of conception. Left to it's own devices (barring natural complications) that "group of cells" will become a human. If you kill that "group of cells", there will be one less human in this world.

People refer to an embryo as something other than human because it makes them feel better about ending a life.

 

[KelJu]

Personally, I think there's a major difference between an early stage fetus and a fully developed human being. The main one being consciousness. Is a 10 week old fetus aware of itself?

You could say this about a coma patient, with one crucial difference. The coma patient may not be aware of themselves, but they once were, and could be again. In other words, they have fully developed, the 10 week fetus has not.

You made some good points brogers, but I have to agree with Witch, at what point does a collection of cells become a human being?

Consciousness being the key word. My jizz is alive, that doesn't mean its sacred. Many people believe jizz becomes sacred the second it meets the egg? Well that is not acceptable to me. Its still just a fertilized egg and nothing more. It is no more alive than the egg and sperm before they combined. A fetus doesn't have higher brain functions to allow them any form of sentience in the first place. They are not aware of anything.

Just as goob said, consciousness is a quality that is undeniably a component of being alive in the human sense, not in the sense of a living organism e.g. trees, viruses, ect. Being conscious is distinct from being potentially conscious. A fetus has the chance of becoming potentially conscious if and only if everything goes right and develops all of its higher brain functions.

My cat is a 100 times more conscious than a fetus. He is a thinking feeling sentient creature. But few people would have a problem with my cat being put down if he left my house, got lost, picked up by animal control, and nobody wanted to adopt him. I don't get it. There is absolutly no concistency in this stuff.


To brogers on the coma patient scenario: We become unconscious every time we go to sleep. We are essentially coma patients until we awake the next morning. The difference between us when we sleep and a fetus is that we were once aware. Our brain has developed to the stage where we can think, feel, love, and hate. A fetus has not. The essence of being a person is the ability to think. "cogito ergo sum" I think, therefore I am. You are not a person if you have never thought. A fetus has never thought. A coma patient may or may not be brain dead. It depends on what happened to them. Some have come out of comas after years, and some never do. The ability to determine who comes out of comas is beyond science at this point. But we do know that they were a person before they went into the coma.


I would like for all of the pro-life people honestly answer a question I have. Which is worse: a life of suffering or non-existence?

 

[DOMS]

My jizz is alive

It also only has half the chromosomes of a human. A fertilized egg, being human, has them all.

 

[KelJu]

It also only has half the chromosomes of a human. A fertilized egg, being human, has them all.

So a human being with a genetic diseases missing or possessing extra chromosomes aren't alive?