Any exceptions on how often to train?

[ALBOB]

Training always has to come first, because without the stimulus there can be no response. Eating to get big without the stimulus to provide growth will make one fatter.

Your example eliminates training, I didn't mean to do that. Let me rephrase. Yes, training HAS to be there otherwise, as you said, you'll do nothing but get fat. What I meant was that of the two, diet will determine success moreso than training. You can do a really messed up routine and as long as you're giving it 100% effort and your diet is up to par, you'll make gains. BUT, if you do a really great routine to 100% but your diet is messed up, you'll get nowhere.

Because it is a function of progressive overload. Assume you work at 100 percent intensity during a 2 set, 1 exercise training method with one minute rest intervals between the set. Now assume you perform 8 reps the first set, and 5 reps the second set. Both times you trained to anaerobic fatigue. The rest interval is merely a way of tracking increased or decreased (adjusted, rather) demands.

I completely understand where you're coming from on the progressive overload, but it seems to me that if you take this too far you're overloading your cardio-vascular system instead of your skeletal muscle system. And that's not why we're lifting weights. Am I reading too much into this or is there something I'm missing? Thanks.

 

[SlimShady]

You can do a really messed up routine and as long as you're giving it 100% effort and your diet is up to par, you'll make gains. BUT, if you do a really great routine to 100% but your diet is messed up, you'll get nowhere.

I totally agree. I think far too much time is spent worrying about workout routines instead of diet. I see people questioning whether they should do 3 instead of 4 sets, or rest 30 seconds instead of 90 seconds...and I don't really think it makes a hell of a lot of difference. As long as you are working out with intensity, you'll see results if the diet is right. Workout routines do not build muscle, they have one goal - to damage muscle. Diet and rest is what builds the muscle.

 

[Duncans Donuts]

I completely understand where you're coming from on the progressive overload, but it seems to me that if you take this too far you're overloading your cardio-vascular system instead of your skeletal muscle system. And that's not why we're lifting weights. Am I reading too much into this or is there something I'm missing? Thanks.

Absolutely, if it's taken to an extreme it can certainly run into the aerobic conditioning phase. I'm of the opinion that unless training demands are altered accordingly every 4-5 weeks, the central nervous system conditions the system to adapt accordingly to stressors imposed by making the task easier (the mind has several ways of accomplishing this consiously and subconsiously; altering grips, leverage, bodymechanics, etc. while neurological harmonization allows for higher performance of work at lower energy output) and allows the body to shift back to homeostasis.

As a side note, clearly the addition of mass for advanced trainees (who already carry a great deal of muscle relative to their genetic capacity) past requisite levels is much more demanding on the body as a consolidated unit (endocrine system, cardiovascular system, muscular system) than by simply improving efficiency by altering mechanics, time under tension, or neuro-efficiency. Advanced trainees, therefore, must be much more intelligent and creative in incorporating progressive overload techniques into their regimen as they creep toward their genetic potential..

 

[Duncans Donuts]

As long as you are working out with intensity, you'll see results if the diet is right. Workout routines do not build muscle, they have one goal - to damage muscle. Diet and rest is what builds the muscle.

That is a very, very glib analysis. If the goal was to "damage muscle", then one could use scissors to instigate growth...there is obviously much more to it than that. Diet and rest do not build muscle, the body adapts to the stressors by instigating a change if REST allows for supercompensation (given the G.A.S.). Supercompensation could include neurological increases...

Also, diet is important in getting big, but again just because you eat like a cow and train like an animal doesn't mean you'll hurdle your genetics and become a Coleman or a Cutler. I've seen lots of guys get fat buying into this.

and I don't really think it makes a hell of a lot of difference.

I agree if you're referring to beginners or intermediates..

 

[SlimShady]

That is a very, very glib analysis. If the goal was to "damage muscle", then one could use scissors to instigate growth...there is obviously much more to it than that. Diet and rest do not build muscle, the body adapts to the stressors by instigating a change if REST allows for supercompensation (given the G.A.S.). Supercompensation could include neurological increases...

Also, diet is important in getting big, but again just because you eat like a cow and train like an animal doesn't mean you'll hurdle your genetics and become a Coleman or a Cutler. I've seen lots of guys get fat buying into this.

Well, chances are, you will never become a Coleman or a Cutler no matter what you do... but one thing is for sure, you will not grow if you do not eat. And the whole point of working out is to damage muscle. Muscle does not grow while you lift... it grows while you rest - as a direct result of the body's attempt to repair damage you did while working out. That might be a simplistic view, but it is correct.

All I am saying is that hypertrophy is not that difficult to achieve. Most times when people are not having success making gains, it's not because they need to rest an extra 15 seconds between sets and it's not because they need to supinate a grip (just examples)- it's because they need a better diet. Yet it seems most people always look for a change in workout routine as a solution. Even in the magazines, you see an abundance of articles on different workout routines, and much less about proper diet. Of course things are different for the advanced body builder who has just about reached his genetic potential for mass gains, but generally you don't see that type of person asking questions about micro changes in his routine.

 

[Duncans Donuts]

Muscle does not grow while you lift... it grows while you rest - as a direct result of the body's attempt to repair damage you did while working out. That might be a simplistic view, but it is correct.

Muscle doesn't hypertrophy (get bigger; expand) unless it HAS TO. The point was that the central nervous system prefers to adapt before increasing muscle mass, ESPECIALLY with advanced trainees. Even beginner trainees have a phase where they increase lifts exponentially - this is neuro-coordination.

All I am saying is that hypertrophy is not that difficult to achieve. Most times when people are not having success making gains, it's not because they need to rest an extra 15 seconds between sets and it's not because they need to supinate a grip (just examples)- it's because they need a better diet.

Pardon me? How do you know that? Is diet some magical bullet that instigates growth after a workout? Could it potentially be a COMBINATION OF SEVERAL FACTORS?

Even in the magazines, you see an abundance of articles on different workout routines, and much less about proper diet.

What does this have to do with anything?
The issue that's being completely dismissed, of course, is OPTIMIZATION. You've completely dismissed the relevance of adjusting small measurements:

it's not because they need to rest an extra 15 seconds between sets and it's not because they need to supinate a grip

Despite the fact that if more people INTELLIGENTLY paid attention to them, they could likely find the best program much sooner in their training and not waste time or potential. Of course if you want to stick to the super-simplified "JUST EAT" version of reality, be my guest.

 

[dcsenger]

Ive had that messed up routine for about 7 months and in the first 3 i gained 20lbs but since i have stopped. Thats why i knew that there was something wrong with my routine. I really appreciate the sticky and thats the routine I'm gonna try for now.

 

[SlimShady]

Despite the fact that if more people INTELLIGENTLY paid attention to them, they could likely find the best program much sooner in their training and not waste time or potential. Of course if you want to stick to the super-simplified "JUST EAT" version of reality, be my guest.

My point was, this isn't rocket science. It's weight lifting. One of the biggest mistakes people make is worrying too much about finding the perfect workout. There is no perfect workout. Lift, eat, grow. I stick to the super-simplified version of reality because that's all you need. Looks like all you want to do is argue and flame... I dunno why I expected anything different.

 

[Duncans Donuts]

My point was, this isn't rocket science. It

You're right, it's not rocket science, it's exercise science. It's philosophy, physics, biology, genetics, chemistry, anatomy, physiology, kiniseology, etc., etc.

I don't want to argue and flame, I just don't like the field I'm studying to become a doctor in demeaned by gross, insipid oversimplification. Lift, eat, grow; that works for you, I'd assume, because you're a beginner or an intermediate. People who are nearing their genetic capacity naturally can't LIFT, EAT, AND GROW. Sadly, your understanding is so basic that you assumed adaptation (strength) MUST be related to muscle hypertrophy, and that food has some magic property that makes you grow muscle. You seem to be confusing steroids with food.

I stick to the super-simplified version of reality because that's all you need.

Given your rocket science example, one could assume that with enough force propellant and fuel one could achieve the means of landing on the moon without worrying about ANY OTHER VARIABLES . After all, with enough thrust and enough rocket fuel to achieve a certain distance, you'll make it there. Fuck the details!

Of course this ultra-simple "version of reality" is a disaster and would result in the loss of lives, time, and money. This analogy is true for oversimplifed versions of any reality, including your "EAT AND GROW" hypothesis.

 

[SlimShady]

blah blah blah... bullshit deleted...

Of course this ultra-simple "version of reality" is a disaster and would result in the loss of lives, time, and money. This analogy is true for oversimplifed versions of any reality, including your "EAT AND GROW" hypothesis.

This is like arguing over what color is best. It's stupid. There is nothing wrong with anything I've said. They are my opinions and I stand by them. Lift, eat and grow has worked for millions of people. Go back and read what I said about body builders who are nearing their genetic limits. You'll find that we agree on that... (I suppose you missed that though, cause you only seem intent on trying to insult me)

I'm very glad that you are so impressed with yourself. Now go read a book and learn some more big words.

 

[Duncans Donuts]

This is like arguing over what color is best. It's stupid.

People like you are the reason FLEX magazine has an audience. Everything is subjective, or opinion; principles don't exist. Mysticism run amok. There is no reason for science, right?

Lift, eat and grow has worked for millions of people.

You forgetting that it's also NOT worked for many people? Getting a bit biased in your data interpretation, aren't you? Also, what census did you get that information from? Or did you make it up?

I'm very glad that you are so impressed with yourself. Now go read a book and learn some more big words.

What does this have to do with anything? You need to focus on relevant information instead of changing topics on a whim and stating something that is completely impertinent (read: RUBBISH).

 

[SlimShady]

People like me? ...Ha, Look dude, how many names you gonna call me? All because I won't kiss your ass. There is no mysticism to it.... let me spell it out for you, ok?

I agreed with Albob earlier in this thread. He said you could do a fucked up routine and as long as your diet was right, you'd still make gains. He's right - that's true. Now, most of the people that come to these boards and ask questions - they aren't Ronny Coleman and they aren't Cutler, so get that shit out of your head. They are just people who for some reason, they are having a problem adding mass. Now my point is, if these guys would simply take time to figure out their daily caloric needs, then eat properly... they'd be way better off than spending all day worrying about whether they should rest for an extra 10 seconds between sets.

Like I said, it isn't rocket science. Well, maybe for you it is. But for the rest of us, it's weight lifting.

 

[Duncans Donuts]

Thanks for the spelling correction.

All because I won't kiss your ass.

How did you come to that conclusion?

how many names you gonna call me?

I just reviewed the entire thread and did not "call" you once. Please don't invent nonsense to demean me.

they aren't Ronny Coleman and they aren't Cutler, so get that shit out of your head.

Again, you are making no sense. I already referenced OPTIMIZATION, that is OPTIMIZING your MEASUREMENTS to make the MOST PROGRESS IN THE LEAST TIME. You don't have to be at a genetic peak or Ronnie Coleman to use techniques that optimize results relative to the individual.

if those guy would simply take time to figure out their daily caloric needs, then eat properly... they'd be way better off than spending all day worryoing about whether they should rest for an extra 10 seconds between sets.

How, exactly, do you know that? Again, I don't mean to imply that diet is not an important factor, but why focus on one and ignore another? Why the hell wouldn't you focus on BOTH (again, this relating to OPTIMIZATION)?

 

[SlimShady]

How, exactly, do you know that? Again, I don't mean to imply that diet is not an important factor, but why focus on one and ignore another? Why the hell wouldn't you focus on BOTH (again, this relating to OPTIMIZATION)?

THAT'S THE PROB! ...I am NOT saying to ignore one. I was simply making the point that a lot of guys spend all their time worrying about micro-managing their routine when they would be better off getting the diet down pat. It's not a statement that's directed at you. Nor is it directed to Ronny Coleman or Jay Cutler. It's simply an observation based on a lot of posts I read here. Period.

That's why I said that arguing over this is as stupid as arguing over what color is best. It's dumb and a waste of time.

 

[nmuriqi]

I'm feeling some tension here.

 

[ALBOB]

I just don't like the field I'm studying to become a doctor in demeaned by gross, insipid oversimplification.

Based on your responses in this thread I hope and pray you NEVER become a doctor. Your bedside manner SUCKS. Aren't doctors supposed to take care of their patients and not just be around to inflate their own egos? Go back to the very first post in this thread, this person has been lifting for seven MONTHS. Got it? MONTHS, not years, not decades, but MONTHS. He's asking for advice from a beginners view point and you're treating him as though he's been a professional competitor for years. I'd like to see a show of hands by everyone who's impressed with Mr. Donut's knowledge and expertise. Nobody? Wow, color me NOT surprised.

 

[DOMS]

Actually, ALBOB, I am impressed with DD's knowledge. I also like his attitude towards training. Simply put, it doesn't matter if you just started or are a long time competitor, treat your bodybuilding like the science it is. Maximize your gains from day one.

 

[Duncans Donuts]

Based on your responses in this thread I hope and pray you NEVER become a doctor. Your bedside manner SUCKS. Aren't doctors supposed to take care of their patients and not just be around to inflate their own egos?

Who said anything about a medical doctor

Go back to the very first post in this thread, this person has been lifting for seven MONTHS. Got it? MONTHS, not years, not decades, but MONTHS. He's asking for advice from a beginners view point and you're treating him as though he's been a professional competitor for years.

No I'm not. The discussion got tense when SlimShady started talking. It seemed resolved.

He's asking for advice from a beginners view point and you're treating him as though he's been a professional competitor for years

The discussion wasn't limited exclusively to the person who started the thread. And, um, why should I dumb down reality to someone because they are new? I wouldn't want someone to do that to me. This goes back to the idea that even beginners shouldn't try and optimize their progress, which is ludicrous.

I'd like to see a show of hands by everyone who's impressed with Mr. Donut's knowledge and expertise. Nobody? Wow, color me NOT surprised.

What an illustration. If you disagree with me, let's talk about it. You should note that the disagreement was with SlimShady, not the thread starter, and even that was apparently resolved.

 

[Missfit4all]

impressed by one's "knowledge" you ask? I believe a "Positive Attitude" holds more weight. No pun intended.

 

[camarosuper6]

Who said anything about a medical doctor

No I'm not. The discussion got tense when SlimShady started talking. It seemed resolved.

The discussion wasn't limited exclusively to the person who started the thread. And, um, why should I dumb down reality to someone because they are new? I wouldn't want someone to do that to me. This goes back to the idea that even beginners shouldn't try and optimize their progress, which is ludicrous.

What an illustration. If you disagree with me, let's talk about it. You should note that the disagreement was with SlimShady, not the thread starter, and even that was apparently resolved.

Can you believe I taught this guy everything I know



BTW.. on a serious note, you may wanna listen to this guy, hes the only person I would trust with my own workout program other than myself.

 

[Vieope]

Duncans Donuts pulled a Johnnny in this thread.

 

[DOMS]

Duncans Donuts pulled a Johnnny in this thread.

Oh, shit...

 

[Vieope]

Nah, I am just teasing him, I know how much he loved that guy.