Anyone else hitting their knees during Dead Lifts?

[* Legion *]

guyfromkop: just saying what i know from experience. olypic lifters often abrade their skin from cleaning and snatching, and the deadlift is the beginning of these movements. spend enough time with the deadllift and you will know what i mean. besides, it really doesnt hurt that much. like i said, its a badge of honor.

 

[guyfromkop]

so when dave tate says to have the bar away from the shins he doesnt know what he's talking about?

 

[P-funk]

so when dave tate says to have the bar away from the shins he doesnt know what he's talking about?

I am sure he means to start with the bar slighty away from your shins because if I remeber correctly in that article (I haven't read it in awhile) the set up he advises is to have the shoulders set behind the bar before you start your pull. Then from there you are pulling the bar into you as you lift it off the floor. Where as an olympic lifter would start with their shoulders infront of the bar and the bar all the way back at their shins to allow for a straigher line on the pull.

 

[Dale Mabry]

In the same article he states that the better DLers keep the bar close to the shins. I would think shorter people would have an easier time with keeping the bar against the shins since the bar starts higher in relation to their body.

I get what he is saying, keep your shoulders behind the bar, but if your build doesn't allow you to do this and keep the bar on your shins, move the bar out. Personally, I would think more along the lines of "If you can't keep your shoulders behind the bar, work on your balance", but that's just me. I have never had a problem with doing both and would tend to think that very few people would have a problem doing the same, save for the 280lbs monsters.

 

[P-funk]

yea, I never understood the shoulder behind the bar thing either. I can't deadlift like that.

 

[Dale Mabry]

I start with them over or slightly ahead of the bar and just go back. I would say after the intitial lift off of the ground that my body is already set up so that when I finish the movement I will be on only my heels and my upper body will be about 15 degrees from straight.

 

[guyfromkop]

99% of the videos i've seen of powerlifters who are pulling ridiculous weights, there shoulders are behind the bars. plus the bar is away from the shin and as he says you pull it in a diagonal line towards your body. the way you guys are talking you are going to have a lot of 16 year old kids trying to do deads and walk out of the gym with bloody shins. strengthen your posterior and you wont have to worry about it

 

[Dale Mabry]

Tate himself states that the bigger lifters start with the bar on the shins in that very same article.

 

[guyfromkop]

where do you see that?

[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] Mistake #6: Keeping the shins too close to the bar[/font] [font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]I'm not too sure where this started but I have a pretty good idea. Many times the taller, thinner lifters are the best pullers and they do start with the bar very close to their shins. But if you look at them from the sides they still have their shoulders behind the bar when they pull. This is just not possible to achieve with a thicker lifter. [/font]

[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]If a thicker lifter with a large amount of body mass ??? be it muscle or fat ??? were to line the bar up with his shins, you'd see he would have an impossible time getting the shoulders behind the bar. Remember you need to pull the bar back toward you, not out and away from you. So what I believe happens is many lifters look to those who have great deadlifts to see how they pull, then try to do the same themselves. What they need to do is look to those who are built the same way they are and have great deadlifts and follow their lead.[/font]

[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/font]

 

[guyfromkop]

or how about this

[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] Mistake #8: Not keeping your shoulders behind the bar[/font] [font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]You've already read this a few times in this article and it's perhaps the most important thing next to hip position in the execution of the deadlift. Your shoulders must start and stay behind the barbell when you pull deadlifts! This will keep the barbell traveling in the right direction and keep your weight going backward. The deadlift isn't an Olympic lift and shouldn't be started like one. [/font]

[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]I did a seminar with Dr. Mel Siff at one of his Supertraining camps (one of the best investments you can ever make!) and we showed the difference between the two positions. For the Olympic lifts you want the shoulders in front of the bar; for the deadlift you want them behind the bar. Period. The amount of misinformation out there about this is incredible. [/font]

 

[Dale Mabry]

Many times the taller, thinner lifters are the best pullers and they do start with the bar very close to their shins. But if you look at them from the sides they still have their shoulders behind the bar when they pull. [/font]

Right there.

And he is stating that keeping the shoulders behind the bar is important and that people need to worry about that more. Here's the point, if you can keep the bar on your shins and shoulders behind the bar, you should. He is stating that people who can't do this need to focus more on keeping your shoulders back.

I can keep my shoulders back with bar on the shins, so the bar should be on my shins. 99% of the people on this site are of normal proportions, not 280lbs mass monsters, so I would think this would also apply to them.

 

[guyfromkop]

it says very close to the shins, not touching

 

[Dale Mabry]

I have a feeling if god told you to keep the bar on your shins you would argue with him.

 

[guyfromkop]

no, but nowhere in all the readings i've done and all the videos i've seen have i seen anything that says let the bar scrape it's way up your legs. from shin to thigh

 

[Dale Mabry]

From Chuck Staley "Deadlifting"

http://www.dolfzine.com/page362.htm

The shins should be two to three inches from the bar and then when you actually bend down and lower your hips in preparation to lift, the shins will touch the bar. Most of the weight will be on the heels of the feet. This facilitates maximal contribution of the glutes and hamstrings. During the ascent, the bar will travel as close to the leg and shins as possible. Ideally, wear cotton sweat pants or track pants with long socks to protect your shins.

 

[guyfromkop]

in both articles that you quote it does not say "TOUCHING" if they wanted it to touch they would say touch all the way up. it says as close to the leg and shins as possible. when have you ever seen someone scrape the bar all the way up there legs? but if you want bloody shins and knees when you walk out of the gym be my guest.

and how many powerlifting meets do you see these guys wearing sweat pants or track pants or even long socks? and have you ever even been to a powerlifting meet?

 

[Dale Mabry]

All the time, I trained with a powerlifter, PA State champ and I believe nat'l champ too. Jeff Goldstein, he competed back in the 80's, I think for the USPF.

Also, you can't get much closer to the shins and knees than touching them. Is there some sort of language barrier here? It is fairly evident from both articles that they are saying it needs to be as close to the legs as possible. Nowhere does it say do not touch the shins. Most people would read this to be if you can keep the bar in contact with the legs all the way then to do so, if you have some impairment then close is better. What do you not understand?

 

[* Legion *]

whats a "shin?"

Your tibia, the front bone in your lower leg.

 

[guyfromkop]

so on his deads did he scrape the bar all the way up his shins, across his knees and up his thighs, then back down his thighs across his knees and down his shins every deadlift he did?

 

[Dale Mabry]

and how many powerlifting meets do you see these guys wearing sweat pants or track pants or even long socks? and have you ever even been to a powerlifting meet?

How many PLers have you seen that have no abrasions on their shins?

 

[Dale Mabry]

so on his deads did he scrape the bar all the way up his shins, across his knees and up his thighs, then back down his thighs across his knees and down his shins every deadlift he did?

I don't know about every time, but he told me the bar doesn't leave my legs while we DL. That includes the concentric and eccentric portion. I have only known him for 4 or so years, I have no idea how he trained back then, but when we trained the bar never left his leg either. You actually get quite used to it, but the first week or 2 sucked.

 

[guyfromkop]

oh i have plenty of abrasions on my knees and i let the bar ride up my thigh. but the way it's being said is to always make sure the bar doesnt lose contact with your leg. and i've seen plenty of videos and lifts in person where the bar does not ride the shin

 

[Dale Mabry]

It is very hard to do, no doubt, especially with the knees. I have always been taught you are supposed to keep it in contact with your legs, the whole way up. I am not saying that every deadlift I do the bar is on my legs 100% of the way up, but that is what I am setting out to do.

I agree 100% that some people are not going to be able to keep the bar against their legs. Everyone is built different.

 

[guyfromkop]

i'm 250 and 5'10, it's a little difficult to have the bar ride all the way up and keep my shoulders back

 

[Dale Mabry]

Yeah, could be a prob for you, I am 5'11" 210 and have no problem, but it was harder to do when I was 236.

 

[* Legion *]

i was joking about the shin question just trying to lighten the mood.

... this is an interesting debate, but hardly one i think that should cause arguement. i, for one, have been working deads for several years, and what has been called to mind by this thread is the fact that i put very little thought into the movement anymore, its been hard wired. perhaps i should pay more attention for a few workouts, or get my form critiqued by someone expert. This is interesting, and guyfromkop, i hope that nothing i said insulted or frustrated you. though there is a general acceptable form for particular lifts, it should be kept in mind that different bodysize lends to different and subtle nuances to these lifts. all i know is that i have abraded shins after a good round of deadlifting, but certainly it is painless and really does not affect my performance at all. Good topic, though. Shoulders back, chin up , ass down. thats what i try to keep in mind when i am pulling big weights. Keep lifting, friends.

 

[pscaputo]

That is why people use knee pads