Att: Expert(s).... what's the lowest calorie consumption to minimize muscle loss?

[DaBeast25]

I know that's a very open-ended question... but I'm about 6'1" 210lb about 11-12% if I had to guess.

I'm fairly good at getting my body weight up or down as necessary, but I'm always looking for more info, advice, input, etc...

I'm currently looking to drop as much fat as possible during the next 5 weeks(while I'm finishing a cycle).

Thinking of dropping down to about 2600-2800 cals, but I'm wondering if I should consider going lower since I'll have some "assistance". I do realize this will be a little bit of trial and error but any advice is appreciated.

Macro split for the next 5 weeks will probably be 40/40/20 p/c/f
THEN... 40/30/30 p/c/f

 

[DaBeast25]

I've also been in the habit of frequent feedings every 2-3 hours BUT I have very long days and I may try to reduce my meals and shakes frequency/day based on some of this input I've recently been reading here.

 

[Vick]

generally if you do nothing just multiply your weight by 10 to get your calories, 15 for moderate activity, 20 for high activity(endurance athletes)

 

[Marat]

You can get away with about 185g (1g/lb lbm)

 

[DaBeast25]

generally if you do nothing just multiply your weight by 10 to get your calories, 15 for moderate activity, 20 for high activity(endurance athletes)

Yeah, I've seen those recommendations before. I may just have to try to see if 10 is too low.

 

[DaBeast25]

You can get away with about 185g (1g/lb lbm)

185g/lb lbm of what? protein?

 

[Marat]

Oh wow -- I misread your question.

You may be interested in Lyle McDonald's "The Rapid Fatloss Handbook". It lays out a diet (this isn't a long term way of eating) called the protein sparing modified fast (PSMF).

That'll fit in with what you're looking for

 

[Built]

^ That. The whole book is the specific and exact answer to your question.

 

[sassy69]

Based on your schedule, you might be a great candidate for Intermittant Fasting.

If you are interested, check out Intermittent fasting diet for fat loss, muscle gain and health.

 

[DaBeast25]

thanks for the replies, I'll look into that book and intermittent fasting

 

[Built]

Excellent. Keep in mind, you can easily combine both concepts - PSMF would likely be a lot more comfortable on an IF schedule.

 

[DaBeast25]

still haven't had time to read in depth about the PSMF, but I glanced through both some info on PSMF as well as the Intermittent Fasting link/site.

I don't know if I'll be able to get my mind off of the protein every 2-3 hours...I'm so programmed to do this that I "feel" catabolic if I go more than 4 hours without protein, lol. Sad right?

 

[Built]

Sad, no. Just wrong.

 

[Marat]

I'm so programmed to do this that I "feel" catabolic if I go more than 4 hours without protein, lol. Sad right?

I suppose that you'll get over this once you realize that you don't have to carry protein powder packets or tupperware of chicken breasts any time you leave your home.

 

[DaBeast25]

I've yet to find examples of a PSMF diet plan/example OR an intermittent diet plan/example so please correct me if I'm wrong but from what I can see so far...

PSMF basically has you just eating protein and veggies all day long (i.e. low carb AND low fat which equals an extremely low calorie diet and would put you in a state of ketosis) I'm assuming you would want to have a refeed every week, or maybe every 3-4 days???

Then... the Intermittent Fasting basically crams whatever calories and macros you're planning into a specific time-window from 4-7 hours or so.


If I'm correct here... Would a decent combination of these 2 diets be to consume the most of my cals in the 4-6 hour window surrounding my workout which is usually late morning/early afternoon BUT still have JUST protein and veggies throughout the other parts of the day or would that completely negate the benefit and purpose of the fast???

 

[Marat]

I've yet to find examples of a PSMF diet

The Rapid Fat Loss Handbook by Lyle McDonald | BodyRecomposition - The Home of Lyle McDonald

an intermittent diet plan

The Leangains Guide | Intermittent fasting diet for fat loss, muscle gain and health

PSMF basically has you just eating protein and veggies all day long (i.e. low carb AND low fat which equals an extremely low calorie diet and would put you in a state of ketosis) I'm assuming you would want to have a refeed every week, or maybe every 3-4 days???

check out the book..maybe somebody can run the numbers for you

Then... the Intermittent Fasting basically crams whatever calories and macros you're planning into a specific time-window from 4-7 hours or so.


If I'm correct here... Would a decent combination of these 2 diets be to consume the most of my cals in the 4-6 hour window surrounding my workout which is usually late morning/early afternoon BUT still have JUST protein and veggies throughout the other parts of the day or would that completely negate the benefit and purpose of the fast???

The blog is free -- read through it.

 

[DaBeast25]

Thanks Marat, I was all over that blog but never came across that page...

Anyone have thoughts on having strictly protein and low carb veggies during what would be considered the fasting window. I'm talking about maybe 30-40 grams of protein at 2 different times outside of the feeding window. Possibly first thing in the AM and at some point a couple hours prior to bed.

 

[DaBeast25]

Thanks Marat, I was all over that blog but never came across that page...

Anyone have thoughts on having strictly protein and low carb veggies during what would be considered the fasting window. I'm talking about maybe 30-40 grams of protein at 2 different times outside of the feeding window. Possibly first thing in the AM and at some point a couple hours prior to bed.

I do realize that this is the FIRST keypoint of the fasting guidelines..just wondering if anyone has tweaked it with success.

 

[Marat]

Thanks Marat, I was all over that blog but never came across that page...

Anyone have thoughts on having strictly protein and low carb veggies during what would be considered the fasting window. I'm talking about maybe 30-40 grams of protein at 2 different times outside of the feeding window. Possibly first thing in the AM and at some point a couple hours prior to bed.

For what reason would you want those two meals? Don't want to lose muscle?

 

[DaBeast25]

pretty much, lol... I just feel the importance of amino acids being available via diet is important throughout a larger time-frame

 

[Marat]

I just feel the importance of amino acids being available via diet is important throughout a larger time-frame

perhaps you may be interested in scrubbing your opinions against the research posted on the leangains blog.

 

[DaBeast25]

perhaps you may be interested in scrubbing your opinions against the research posted on the leangains blog.

Lol, I'm always open to new ideas... just takes some time to go against everything I've learned

 

[Marat]

You can follow your current ideas for now if you want -- eat the bulk of your calories in a 6-8 hour window and then have some small snacks in between. Once you're convinced that the snacks aren't necessary, you can invest those calories into increasing the size of your "feeding window" meals.

 

[DaBeast25]

I'm definitely interested in trying it one way or another.

Assuming you have done this diet... any feedback?

do you find your hungry during the fast? or does it subside?

trouble sleeping?

general feeling? weak or energized?


???

 

[Built]

I do it within a larger feeding window - Berkhan has suggested (somewhere, I'm too lazy to search) that in his experience, women seem to do better with a 10-12 hour window where for men 8-10 appears to be optimal.

I do the 12-hour version, eating at about 10 or 11, then again at around 3PM and my largest meal somewhere around 10PM. Because I'm well-fed at night, I sleep like the dead.

So far (I've been doing this for a while now) no problems with energy; even my workouts are fine. During the week I train at about 7 or 8PM and if I feel like I need it, I knock back a small whey shake in water preworkout, or I'll just skip that and knock it back in the car on my way home to eat.

On the weekends, I train at around 10 AM so I usually just do this fasted (I'll have a cup of tea and some ephedrine or whatever other stims I'm taking), then go home to eat my first meal.

 

[DaBeast25]

I do it within a larger feeding window - Berkhan has suggested (somewhere, I'm too lazy to search) that in his experience, women seem to do better with a 10-12 hour window where for men 8-10 appears to be optimal.

I do the 12-hour version, eating at about 10 or 11, then again at around 3PM and my largest meal somewhere around 10PM. Because I'm well-fed at night, I sleep like the dead.

So far (I've been doing this for a while now) no problems with energy; even my workouts are fine. During the week I train at about 7 or 8PM and if I feel like I need it, I knock back a small whey shake in water preworkout, or I'll just skip that and knock it back in the car on my way home to eat.

On the weekends, I train at around 10 AM so I usually just do this fasted (I'll have a cup of tea and some ephedrine or whatever other stims I'm taking), then go home to eat my first meal.

Interesting... so with a larger fasting window like that I guess you're really just adding about 4-6 hours onto your typically "natural fast" while asleep.

So you haven't had any problem with training after a 12-14 hour fast?

I'm not worried as much about energy as just low blood sugar leaving me to feel like sh*t. I'm thinking I'd probably benefit more from having 1 pre workout meal or does the feed-timing have to stay consistent day to day?

 

[Built]

It's surprising, but once you start moving, you get hepatic glucose release, and later free fatty acids and you're fine.

You notice the hunger right after though; have a shake handy and then go have a nice big meal.

BTW for me, I do very low carb/moderately high fat for the two daytime meals.

 

[DaBeast25]

Nice, I actually started another thread with a tenative gameplan I'm going to start with at least. Don't know if you happened to see it...