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Clen vs. ECA

Originally posted by cornfed
I know, bud... I like TCD ... :scared: ... now I know that's gonna get twised around... but I figured I'd clarify so that noone would run out and take 100-150mg of E or NorE while taking .2mg of clen... but I guess that'd only matter if my opinion meant sh!t to anyone here anywho :D
any need to repeat myself there, bud?

IT IS BAD

now fuqqin' chill already :D
 
Didn't quite catch that man.
 
Bah!

Ruined the entire joke.

Have you not seen Fight Club, good Sir?
 
The Ministry of funny walks...
 
Muscle Gelz Transdermals
IronMag Labs Prohormones
Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy
Monty Python?

Monty Python is funny shit! Betcha John Kleese used clen and eca when making those films...
 
I'm betting John Cleese was on a little more than that.
 
Originally posted by The_Chicken_Daddy
I'm betting John Cleese was on a little more than that.

Probably...
 
I am new this site and am looking for some help. I'm 28 just under 5 '2'. my weight is down to 112 with 12% bf. I've decided to compete in figure in april/may. I go to a small gym and the trainers aren't really experienced with training for competition. My trainer is an old wrestling coach and only a hand full of people from the gym have ever competed. None of whom would be any help to me. I can rely on my trainer to help develop my body and I do my own nutrition.

I do 3 low days of 1300 with a 50p/25c/25f with 1 high day 1800 30p/50c/20f. I carb and calorie taper on low days.

I started taking ECA a few weeks before xmas and decided this was want I wanted to stick with through my training. I relaxed through the end of dec and early jan and started back on my nutrition cycle and the ECA stack jan 10th.

I feel like I am missing out on proper supplementing. Should I be taking Creatine? HMB? a pump product?

Also is ECA my best coice? I've been reading a lot about Clen or Cytomel.

If you wouldn't mind giving me your opinion or any advice I would really appreciate it.
 
First up - hello

Second - you have posted the exact same question in three threads.

Third - your fats are too low

and finally, there is no way you are at 12% now. Figure competitors are 12% on stage. How much weight are you looking to drop, and describe your training?
 
Hi.

Sorry about the 3 posts. I was just trying to find different places where someone might see it.

I had my bf taken by a certified trainer at another gym with the skin fold method. With my measurements and the formula he used it came it 12.46%

tricep- 11
shld blade-5
pelvis crest-4
stomach-8
thigh-15

As far as what weight I want to lose I'm not sure at this point. On 10-1-08 I was 130 and by 12-24-08 I was 112. I know I have more to lose but I didn't know how much lower.

On m,w,f, I do cardio for 1 hr with abs. I was doing more HIIT but since I started on the ECA I switched to a longer consistant pace.

I lift with my trainer on t, th, sat. We do chest,bi,tri with a lift leg. Then shoulders and back with a cardio leg.

I am not supplementing right and I'm not sure what would be best.

Thanks alot
 
At 12% on your current diet and current training, you will have lost your period by now.

You will have profound vascularity through your entire upper body - delts, biceps, lats, back, and abs, possibly also into your groin and even parts of your legs depending upon how and where you carry your bodyfat.

If this matches what you see in the mirror, then I believe you. If not, you aren't at 12%. For reference, if you click on my profile, I'm at 14% in that shot, and this was confirmed by x-ray. Note the uneven distribution of bodyfat on my body - upper is ripped to shreds, lower is still quite smooth. But enough about the bain of MY existance! Back to you…

You have told me bodyparts, not how you train.

Can you please outline, in detail, your training?

Monday: lifts performed, rep range, weight used, sets; cardio type and duration if performed. Calories, timing of meals.
Tuesday: etc

Thanks
 
That is not what matches in the mirror. I am cut through my upper body with some vascularity in shoulders, forearms and chest and hold weight through lower body. The skin on my upperbody is tight.My legs show small amount of muscle. They look like I have more muscle when I wear a tight pant but I don't feel like the skin it tight. My body is thin. Pants size is 2. U can see the top 4 abs with a small V line in my lower abs but that doesn't always show.

What other method should I use to get an accurate bf %?

My meals are 3-4 hours apart. I do ECA every 3 hours. On a low day my first meal has the most calories and carbs then I taper through the day, on my high day meals are all about the some in calories.

I'm not supplementing anything before/after I lift

As far as my lifting I don;t keep track, my trainer does. We do if different every time we lift and it depends on how my body is that day for weight and reps but I can give a general detail.

My rest period with a super set is how long it takes for me to run 2 sets of steps.

shoulders and back together normally supersets. Sometimes all shoulders first, sometimes all back first, sometimes one of each.
Shoulders- dumbell press. start out with 30's reps 10. sometimes 2nd set with 30's. then 25's for 10-12 reps.

That is normally super set-ed with the shoulder press machine with a close grip. starting at 50lb for 8-10 reps then down from that. Sometimes while I'm doing the set he will take off 2.5lbs at a time to blow out the set.

Seated side lat. 3-4 sets 8-10 reps with 8-12lbs. Depending on how fatigued.

Back.
Lat pulldown-underhand grip with slight tilt back. Start with 100lb for 10 reps then down from there. 3-4 sets.

Lat pullhand overhand grip. Start with 90lb for 10 reps. 3-4 sets

Seated row. sometimes inside or outside grip. Start with 70lb for 10 reps. 3-4 sets.

Then a cardio leg. Total time period of 30 min. could be anything from laps of walking lunges holding 8-20lbs. Running steps. Running hills. Intervals on the bike or eliptical. 5-10 min periods of back lunges. Ball squats.

Chest Bi and Tri together. Now I just started back with chest. I had a back surgery 2 months ago and couldn't lay flat. Same thing as far as supersets. Like yesterday I did chest,bi,tri with no rest inbetween

Chest-dumbell inline. Start with 30's for ten reps. 3-4 sets. Chest press machine. Start with 80lb for 10 reps 3-4 sets.

Bi- Standing straight bar- 15lbs on each side. 10 reps 3-4 sets
Concentration curl. Start with 20lb for 8 reps 3-4 sets
Seated Bi machine-Start with 50 for 8-10 reps 3-4 sets
Standing curl on cable crossover machine- start with 30lb on each side

Tri- Eyeballs- start with 12.5lb on each side 8-10 reps 3-4 sets
Kickbacks. Sometimes single or double 8-12 lbs 2-3 sets
Seated Dip machine- Start at 90lb for 8-10 reps 3 sets
Pushdowns with triangle bar. Start at 80lb 8-10 reps 3 sets

Lift leg- Also just started back with legs because of my back surgery.

Hamstring curl machine-30-40lbs 10 reps 2-3 sets
Leg ext with toes pointed up- 40lbs 12 reps with a 3-5 sec hold at top. 3 sets
Leg press-150-170 lbs 10-12 reps 3-4 sets.

Sometimes in between I'll have to run a few steps or do ball squats.

When I do cardio I do 45-60 min. Normally on the eliptical. levels 3-5-7-9-5-7-9-7-7-5-9 at 5 min intervals. Sometimes after 40 min I'll jump on the bike for 20 min.

Please let me know if I left anything out.

Thanks again
 
That is not what matches in the mirror. I am cut through my upper body with some vascularity in shoulders, forearms and chest and hold weight through lower body. The skin on my upperbody is tight.My legs show small amount of muscle. They look like I have more muscle when I wear a tight pant but I don't feel like the skin it tight. My body is thin. Pants size is 2. U can see the top 4 abs with a small V line in my lower abs but that doesn't always show.

What other method should I use to get an accurate bf %?
DEXA, but it doesn't really matter. You will know when you have achieved the look. From what you said, you appear to carry your bodyfat the same way I do. You're probably around 16%, which IS lean, make no mistake.

How about this - why not simply assume you're 16% and diet down to the weight you'd have to be to hit 12%? For you, this would be about 105 pounds.

Assume you do everything right and stop trying to monitor your progress with bodyfat testing. The estimation methods just aren't helpful to you at this point.

My meals are 3-4 hours apart.
Any particular reason for this?
I do ECA every 3 hours. On a low day my first meal has the most calories and carbs then I taper through the day, on my high day meals are all about the some in calories.
Why would you want carbs early in the day on a low day? That would just make you hungry all day!
I'm not supplementing anything before/after I lift
No food either?
As far as my lifting I don;t keep track, my trainer does. We do if different every time we lift and it depends on how my body is that day for weight and reps but I can give a general detail.

My rest period with a super set is how long it takes for me to run 2 sets of steps.

shoulders and back together normally supersets. Sometimes all shoulders first, sometimes all back first, sometimes one of each.
Shoulders- dumbell press. start out with 30's reps 10. sometimes 2nd set with 30's. then 25's for 10-12 reps.
Lean as you are, your training should mostly be low-rep heavy compounds with long rest periods from this point forward. The high-rep training you are doing is going to chew through what little muscle you have, unless you were on AAS.
That is normally super set-ed with the shoulder press machine with a close grip. starting at 50lb for 8-10 reps then down from that. Sometimes while I'm doing the set he will take off 2.5lbs at a time to blow out the set.

Seated side lat. 3-4 sets 8-10 reps with 8-12lbs. Depending on how fatigued.

Back.
Lat pulldown-underhand grip with slight tilt back. Start with 100lb for 10 reps then down from there. 3-4 sets.

Lat pullhand overhand grip. Start with 90lb for 10 reps. 3-4 sets

Seated row. sometimes inside or outside grip. Start with 70lb for 10 reps. 3-4 sets.

Then a cardio leg. Total time period of 30 min. could be anything from laps of walking lunges holding 8-20lbs. Running steps. Running hills. Intervals on the bike or eliptical. 5-10 min periods of back lunges. Ball squats.

Chest Bi and Tri together. Now I just started back with chest. I had a back surgery 2 months ago and couldn't lay flat. Same thing as far as supersets. Like yesterday I did chest,bi,tri with no rest inbetween

Chest-dumbell inline. Start with 30's for ten reps. 3-4 sets. Chest press machine. Start with 80lb for 10 reps 3-4 sets.

Bi- Standing straight bar- 15lbs on each side. 10 reps 3-4 sets
Concentration curl. Start with 20lb for 8 reps 3-4 sets
Seated Bi machine-Start with 50 for 8-10 reps 3-4 sets
Standing curl on cable crossover machine- start with 30lb on each side

Tri- Eyeballs- start with 12.5lb on each side 8-10 reps 3-4 sets
Kickbacks. Sometimes single or double 8-12 lbs 2-3 sets
Seated Dip machine- Start at 90lb for 8-10 reps 3 sets
Pushdowns with triangle bar. Start at 80lb 8-10 reps 3 sets

Lift leg- Also just started back with legs because of my back surgery.

Hamstring curl machine-30-40lbs 10 reps 2-3 sets
Useless movment. These should be deadlifts, heavy.
Leg ext with toes pointed up- 40lbs 12 reps with a 3-5 sec hold at top. 3 sets
Also a lousy movement. Ditch.
Leg press-150-170 lbs 10-12 reps 3-4 sets.
This should be squats, heavy, low rep.
Sometimes in between I'll have to run a few steps or do ball squats.
WHY???
When I do cardio I do 45-60 min. Normally on the eliptical. levels 3-5-7-9-5-7-9-7-7-5-9 at 5 min intervals. Sometimes after 40 min I'll jump on the bike for 20 min.

Please let me know if I left anything out.

Thanks again
Thank you for the excruciating detail.

Your training and diet are best set up for assisted athletes with a great deal of bodyfat to lose.

You were asking about cytomel eariler - that would be a big "no". You need to be running AAS with cytomel.

Cytomel chews through everything - fat AND muscle. You need anabolics and low-rep training to protect your lean mass, and you are doing neither of these things.

As a natural female, it is inappriate for you to be performing so much cardio and such high-rep training. I realize you are in figure, but you will lose what little muscle you have doing this - and wear yourself to a pulp.

Have you competed before?
 
I have to run out so I'll reply with the answers. I'm willing to try or change anything for gains. Thanks again and I'll be back on in a few hours
 
OK. First thanks you such detailed answers

Ok on bringing my weight down to 105 and not going by my bf to monitor. My implants weight almost 3lbs together so should I take that into account?

As far as my nutrition, I developed my current diet after reading Tom Venuto's book- Burn the fat feed the muscle. Through that, other reading and past results my body type is endomorph. So I can be carb sensiitive. Eating every 3-4 hours seems to help keep my metaoblism up.

I do calorie and carb tapering because I was afraid to have to much in my system late because with my slower metabolism my body wouldn't work through it. So in meal 1 and 2 I have starchy carbs and the rest come from fibrosis carbs

I don't feel hungry through the day and now with the ECA I never feel hungry. (well not never) not often.

Now on very 4th day I do starchy carbs all through the day.

One of my meals normally falls around 3:30 and I go to the gym at 4:30 then we do dinner around 7:30. So that is my nutrition around my working out. See no supplementing. Don't my muscles need something more?

I see your point on my reps. I know that less reps heavier weight build more muscle.

Now on my legs I'm not cleared to squat heavy or anything that would act as an weighted hyperextention yet so that is why I was doing the leg press and ext and ham curl.

And as far as him making me do squats or steps in between. I don't know why.

No I have not competed before. I feel like I have a lot of work to do.

You don't think I need the cardio to keep my weight down?

Got it on the Cytomel.

What about Clenbuterol?

And what are your thoughts on ECA? Should I be using a cycle on that?
 
OK. First thanks you such detailed answers

Ok on bringing my weight down to 105 and not going by my bf to monitor. My implants weight almost 3lbs together so should I take that into account?
Treat them as LBM that will never leave and don't consider their weight.
As far as my nutrition, I developed my current diet after reading Tom Venuto's book- Burn the fat feed the muscle. Through that, other reading and past results my body type is endomorph. So I can be carb sensiitive. Eating every 3-4 hours seems to help keep my metaoblism up.
No, it doesn't. Meal frequency does nothing to increase or decrease metabolism. If you feel the need to eat this frequently, you may wish to eat larger meals and or change your nutrient mix toward higher protein and fat and lower carbs. This can be particularly important for women - estrogen makes us more insulin resistant than men. I'd ditch AM carbs entirely, too, unless you lift in the AM. Easier to manage appetite if you eschew all but pre and or post lifting carbs.
I do calorie and carb tapering because I was afraid to have to much in my system late because with my slower metabolism my body wouldn't work through it. So in meal 1 and 2 I have starchy carbs and the rest come from fibrosis carbs
There is no reason whatsoever to taper calories in the evening - you don't store it any differently if you eat at night than if you eat in the morning. When cutting I ditch my breakfast and eat a meal at bedtime. It's WAY more comfortable if I get to look forward to being full every night!
I don't feel hungry through the day and now with the ECA I never feel hungry. (well not never) not often.

Now on very 4th day I do starchy carbs all through the day.
Not sure what's all that magical about every forth day, but that's fine.
One of my meals normally falls around 3:30 and I go to the gym at 4:30 then we do dinner around 7:30. So that is my nutrition around my working out. See no supplementing. Don't my muscles need something more?

They need food...

What else would they need?

I see your point on my reps. I know that less reps heavier weight build more muscle.
No they don't.

FOOD builds muscle.

Heavy weights signals the body to retain muscle while cutting. You're not building ANY muscle. None. In fact, you're losing muscle from this point, no matter WHAT you do.

In a caloric deficit, short, heavy, low-rep workouts will just minimize this.

Now on my legs I'm not cleared to squat heavy or anything that would act as an weighted hyperextention yet so that is why I was doing the leg press and ext and ham curl.
Cleared?

And as far as him making me do squats or steps in between. I don't know why.
He's trying to exercise off the weight. He's displaying his ignorance.
No I have not competed before. I feel like I have a lot of work to do.

You don't think I need the cardio to keep my weight down?
Cardio teaches your body to become efficient. It burns very little fat. Why do you think you need it to keep your weight down?
Got it on the Cytomel.

What about Clenbuterol?

And what are your thoughts on ECA? Should I be using a cycle on that?
My understanding is that clen is not different enough from ECA to be worth it.

Really, if you find your appetite is well-controlled on ECA, leave it alone. Neither really burns fat to any appreciable extent, but ECA can be helpful to control hunger.

Your training is completely inappropriate to your goals. I'm sorry to hear what your trainer has you doing.

I urge you to reevaluate your diet, and do some reading before you ruin your health and your body with the overtraining and undernutrition you are currently experiencing.
 
Treat them as LBM that will never leave and don't consider their weight.

No, it doesn't. Meal frequency does nothing to increase or decrease metabolism. If you feel the need to eat this frequently, you may wish to eat larger meals and or change your nutrient mix toward higher protein and fat and lower carbs. This can be particularly important for women - estrogen makes us more insulin resistant than men. I'd ditch AM carbs entirely, too, unless you lift in the AM. Easier to manage appetite if you eschew all but pre and or post lifting carbs.

Ok. I don't feel like I need to eat this frequent. The last article I read said if you don't then you may as well throw in the towel. Not feeding your muscles every 3-4 hours will ruin all the work you did.

Do you have a link for a article or book you feel will help me with this?



There is no reason whatsoever to taper calories in the evening - you don't store it any differently if you eat at night than if you eat in the morning. When cutting I ditch my breakfast and eat a meal at bedtime. It's WAY more comfortable if I get to look forward to being full every night!

Not sure what's all that magical about every forth day, but that's fine.

I really like this idea. I stay in the bedroom at night so I don't have to go near the kitchen. So if I ditch breakfast when would my meals start?

And the forth day was from what I read a bodybuilding secret. If you do low carb for to long your body gets used to it so by adding a day of high carbs you trick it.
They need food...


What else would they need?

I meant should I be doing Creatine or what type of meal right before or after by workouts?

No they don't.

FOOD builds muscle.

Heavy weights signals the body to retain muscle while cutting. You're not building ANY muscle. None. In fact, you're losing muscle from this point, no matter WHAT you do.

In a caloric deficit, short, heavy, low-rep workouts will just minimize this.

Are you saying this because my nutrition is wrong

Cleared?
I had a back surgery 2 months ago to remove some bone scar tissue that had formed from a surgery I had when I was young. My surgeon wants me to not do heavy squats or hyper ext for 4 more months.

He's trying to exercise off the weight. He's displaying his ignorance.

Cardio teaches your body to become efficient. It burns very little fat. Why do you think you need it to keep your weight down?

I gain weight very easy so I have always cut or maintained with a lot of cardio. How else can I get it down to 105?
My understanding is that clen is not different enough from ECA to be worth it.

Really, if you find your appetite is well-controlled on ECA, leave it alone. Neither really burns fat to any appreciable extent, but ECA can be helpful to control hunger.

Your training is completely inappropriate to your goals. I'm sorry to hear what your trainer has you doing.

I urge you to reevaluate your diet, and do some reading before you ruin your health and your body with the overtraining and undernutrition you are currently experiencing.

Do you have any suggestions on where I should start with my reading? I'm very concerned at this point.
 
What article told you to throw in the towel?

If you ditch breakfast, eat when you need to. Protein and fat, no carbs. WAY MORE COMFORTABLE.

Have a light protein and carb meal about an hour before you train, and the rest of your carbs in the meal immediately after you train.

I'm not saying you're not putting on any muscle because your training is wrong.

I'm saying you're not putting on any muscle because you're cutting! (Nobody puts on muscle while cutting - not unless you're a novice, overweight lifter or on juice.)

Cutting, the focus changes from "trying to gain muscle" to "trying not to lose muscle".

"Getting used to" low carb isn't necessarily a bad thing, and you can not trick your body - but you CAN work with it. ;)

How many calories do you really think you can burn off with all that cardio that you do? You hardy weigh anything and you're used to it. You MIGHT burn off 250 calories in 45 minutes of cardio. If all of it comes from fat (it doesn't), that's a whole - gasp - OUNCE of bodyfat you've dropped!

Sadly, in women, this overstimulates appetite; you're better off just not eating those calories. Effects of exercise intensity on food intake and appetite in women -- Pomerleau et al. 80 (5): 1230 -- American Journal of Clinical Nutrition

I don't want you doing hypers at all. GHRs would do you a world of good, though. And leg press is harder on your back than squats.
 
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