Cycle Refinement

[Pirate!]

This is the general outline for my second cycle that I plan to run in a few months. It is to be a bulker. I've split it into three phases with different goals.

First 4 weeks: strength gain
Next 4 weeks: mass gain
Last 2 weeks: leaness

1-10 Test Prop 150 mg EOD
1-10 Nandralone Phenylpropionate 100 mg EOD
5-8 D-bol 25 mg/day


Ancillaries:
1-8 T3 25 mcg/day
9-10 T3 50 mcg/day
1-10 Dex .25 mg EOD
1-10 Nolva 20 mg EOD
½-9 ½ HCG 250 iu E3D

PCT:
11-15 Nolva 60 mg --> 20 mg/day

I would like to focus on lean gains and maybe dropping a couple lbs of fat during week 9-10. I was considering running 15 mg M1T while upping the T3, dropping the cals, and increasing cardio. However, that wouldn't be nice on my liver. Another thought was to substitute Tren Ace for the NNP at an undetermined dose for the last two weeks. Hair loss is a concern for me, and I know just about any strong androgen is going to be hell on my hair line. Any advice concerning this cycle, especially the last two weeks, would be very much appreciated.

 

[Du]

Looks like ya thought this through alright. You dont have a problem pinning that much?

 

[Cardinal]

Are you sure you wouldn't be better off just running Dianabol for the 1st 6 weeks. I am concerned that your strength phase might not be all that unless you know already that test alone gives you solid strength gains comparable to dbol.

Test+Deca should be way more than enough for a mass phase to come after the dbol. As it stands you have dbol, deca and test flowing through the veins all at once. For me that would likely be overkill and too much anabolism all at once.

Another possibly minor concern. I recall you having significant libido issues in the middle of the cycle. Adding deca would just make this worse I think not to mention a possibly extended recovery period after the cycle. Why choose the deca over equipose? A strong appetite should be your best friend anyhow.

I would also be squeemish about sticking myself a minimum of 35 times, like du mentioned.

For the last couple of weeks, why not just use a more standard hardening agent like masteron? No need to reinvent the wheel.

 

[Du]

Another possibly minor concern. I recall you having significant libido issues in the middle of the cycle. Adding deca would just make this worse I think not to mention a possibly extended recovery period after the cycle. Why choose the deca over equipose? A strong appetite should be your best friend anyhow.

But running a short ester deca would allow him to stop running it if he has problems..... it would be out in no time.

 

[Cardinal]

Maybe I am wrong, but isn't deca (short or long) still detectable after 18 months in the system. I am more concerned about possible recovery problems long after the cycle is over. I guess I am just not clear on how that works.

Should it cause problems during the cycle, I can definitely see the logic in just dropping it since it is short ester. I guess it just seems most probable to me that there will be libido issues. If that is okay, then by all means go for the extra mass it gives.

 

[Mudge]

First 4 weeks: strength gain
Next 4 weeks: mass gain
Last 2 weeks: leaness

1-10 Test Prop 150 mg EOD
1-10 Nandralone Phenylpropionate 100 mg EOD
5-8 D-bol 25 mg/day

Did you get that backwards? I see no strength drugs until week 5. Prop is not going to blow your underwear off, NPP isn't going to do jack for strength.

 

[LAM]

I would run anadrol weeks 1-4 for the strength phase. high cals with the test/deca combo from weeks 1-8 will take care of LBM gains. I would cut the deca out the last 2 weeks and up the T3 to at least 100 mcg/ED.

 

[Mudge]

Why choose the deca over equipose? A strong appetite should be your best friend anyhow.

EQ does diddly for my appetite.

 

[Mudge]

Maybe I am wrong, but isn't deca (short or long) still detectable after 18 months in the system.

Short ester clears faster.

 

[Pirate!]

Did you get that backwards? I see no strength drugs until week 5. Prop is not going to blow your underwear off, NPP isn't going to do jack for strength.

My focus on strength for the first part of the phase is simply based on training technique, not specific drugs for strength. I figured if I'm going to do 4 weeks of d-bol, then I could do it during the mass part of the phase--especially since a prop cycle doesn't need orals to jump start it the way long ester cycles do.

I would run anadrol weeks 1-4 for the strength phase. high cals with the test/deca combo from weeks 1-8 will take care of LBM gains. I would cut the deca out the last 2 weeks and up the T3 to at least 100 mcg/ED.

Why anadrol over d-bol? Better for strength? Why cut the deca out for two weeks when it is a short ester? 100+ mcg T3 would likely be catabolic for me if I am just on test for those last two weeks. I shouldn't add something more androgenic for those weeks?

I appreciate everyone's help!

 

[LAM]

Why anadrol over d-bol? Better for strength? Why cut the deca out for two weeks when it is a short ester? 100+ mcg T3 would likely be catabolic for me if I am just on test for those last two weeks. I shouldn't add something more androgenic for those weeks?

I appreciate everyone's help!

anadrol crushes dbol in terms of quick strength gains and for that matter so does halo. but if you want to try to drop some bf the last 2 weeks that's why I suggested dropping the short ester deca and upping the T3. on paper many articles claim that nandrolone can be used in cutting cycles, in the real world you don't see bb'ers using deca for pre-comp. I wouldn't worry about catabolism as the AR receptors will be heavily saturated already from weeks 1-8. But yes you could surely add in something more androgenic for the last 2 weeks especially if you plan on dropping your cals.

 

[Pirate!]

Thanks for the insight!

 

[redspy]

Here's an interesting post I found on NPP by BigAndy, which includes some sample cycles. Hope it helps....

NPP was never really all that popular simply because of availability issues. Many of the pharmacy grade NPP products range between 25mg-50mg/ml and are extremely expensive. Naturally, this limited its use among the bodybuilding crowd. Mexico and the underground did not bother producing it.

The recent increase in popularity of NPP can be attributed to the introduction of BM???s Dubol-100; the first affordable pharmacy grade 100mg/ml NPP. Eventually, more and more Underground Labs started producing the forgotten drug.

PhenylProp vs Decanoate.

Here is some interesting information from Andy13:

???Let's calculate the amount accumulated in the body after 6 weeks of 500mg/deca. Let's say you inject it once a week and we'll give it a 1.5-week half-life. Note that injection frequency makes a huge difference in blood concentration stability but no difference in amount of esterified in the system

E (greek letter "sigma") 500*e^(ln(1/2)n/1.5) from n=0 to n=6. So after 6 weeks, about 1300mg of esterified nandrolone remain in the body.

Now lets see how long, after the initial injection, it takes to reduce to a small enough amount that permits recovery.

1300*e^(ln(1/2)n/1.5) After 3 weeks, 325 mg of esterified remain

after 6 weeks, 81 mg of esterified remain.

After 8 weeks, 32mg of esterified remain.???

Nandrolone Decanoate is a long acting depot; it takes quite a while for it to ???kick in??? and clear out of the system. Depending on how much is used; it will take at least 4-6 weeks after the last shot for Deca to clear out. It also takes about 4 weeks for active blood levels to stabilize. This can easily add up to 8-10 weeks of ???dead time??? i.e. periods of time when blood levels are not consistent. These numbers apply to reasonable use of Nandrolone Decanoate; between 200-400mg a week. The more you use, the worst it gets. So a 10-week cycle of Deca can easily end up been a 16-week cycle when you account for clearance time (active blood levels). The first 4 weeks are also somewhat of a waste of time.

So that 10-week cycle ends up been 16 weeks; 6 weeks of optimal blood levels and 10 weeks of dead time. Not a very effective way to cycle.

With NPP, you can bypass all that dead time.
19-Nortestosterone based drugs are known to shutdown HPTA very easily - think Trenbolone. Most bodybuilders will use Tren for around 6 weeks at the beginning of a cycle. NPP should be used in a similar manner.

Here???s an example of a balanced cycle consisting of NPP

W1-6: Dbol
W1-6: NPP
W1-8: Test Prop

It is a good idea to run Test 2 weeks past the NPP, however; NPP can be used as a stand-alone.

Earlier, I compared NPP to Tren. They are similar in some ways but Tren is much more androgenic and stronger in general.

NPP shares some of the same sides associated with Deca (they are after all the same base compound). It should be noted that most of the sides that come with Deca are a result of its long ester. Decanoate ester is very hard to control and Nandrolone side effects are not easily countered like Testosterone related sides (Tamoxifen, anastrozole, finasteride???)

Overall, Nandrolone is a milder compound than Testosterone and is better mg for mg (but that???s a matter of opinion)

Nandrolone PhenylProp should be injected at least every 3 days. A typical dose is 350mg-700mg a week for 5-8 weeks.

It stacks very well with Winstrol, Dbol, Test, EQ, Anavar

It does not stack well with Tren and especially Anadrol

Here are some good cycle suggestions:

Fast Acting Classic Test/Deca/Dbol cycle:

W1-6: Dbol 30mg ED
W1-6: NPP 150mg EOD
W1-8: Test Prop 150mg EOD

Highly Anabolic cycles

W1-6: NPP: 200mg E3D
W1-8: Anavar: 30mg ED

W1-6: NPP: 200mg E3D
W1-8: Winny: 50mg ED

A good First cycle:

W1-6: NPP: 150mg E3D
W1-4: Dbol: 25mg ED
(W5-8: Anavar: 30mg ED - optional)

NPP in a typical cycle

W1-10: EQ 400mg a week
W1-9: Test Cyp 600mg a week
W1-8: NPP 200mg E3D
W10-13: Test Prop 150mg EOD

Nandrolone got a very bad rap with many bodybuilders; there is no reason to use Nandrolone Decanoate if NPP available aside from year-round juicer using it for joint pain. Nandrolone is a tremendous bodybuilding drug that can take your physique to a whole different level but many people shy away from it because of what they have heard or experienced with Deca.

 

[Pirate!]

Thanks for the very informative post. I'll use this info to tweak my cycle a bit. Now, I just need to decide if I think I can get away with pinning 2.5 cc oil in one shot.

 

[redspy]

For glute shots that's not a problem, but with frequent site rotation that's another matter.

 

[gococksDJS]

Thanks for the very informative post. I'll use this info to tweak my cycle a bit. Now, I just need to decide if I think I can get away with pinning 2.5 cc oil in one shot.

Ive put 2.2 cc's in my glute and quad and I have occasional pain in my glutes but never in my quads.

 

[Mudge]

I've done 3cc everywhere.

 

[Pirate!]

I've done 3cc everywhere.

That is good to hear! I think I will do calves, quads, glutes, and delts. 8 spots should be enough for EOD. I'll use 23 g 1" for everything, except I'll use 1.5" for glutes.

 

[redspy]

Test prop in the calves? Are you a secret masochist?

 

[CRASHMAN]

If you are worried about hiar loss, i would exclude the decca all together because if you wanted to run finasteride in case it is happening from the test, thats a big no no....so i've read.

 

[CRASHMAN]

i don't see why you just wouldn't run:
anadrol 1-4
test E 1-6
tren 7-10(or 12)
and prop 7-10(or 12)

then you get your strength & mass from the anadrol in a hurry and you have the tren to help with the cuttingat the end.

 

[Pirate!]

Test prop in the calves?

I've never tried the calves before, but if they don't work I will just use the other three areas and probably differentiate between upper and lower quads--for a total of 8 spots.

if you wanted to run finasteride in case it is happening from the test, thats a big no no

I forgot about that. I'll have to look into that some more.

i don't see why you just wouldn't run:
anadrol 1-4
test E 1-6
tren 7-10(or 12)
and prop 7-10(or 12)

I want to start the cycle and pct within about 10 weeks of each other and get the best results in that time frame. I'd like to have stable blood levels of test, as well. I have d-bol, but no anadrol, so I'll likely use that.

 

[CRASHMAN]

I want to start the cycle and pct within about 10 weeks of each other and get the best results in that time frame. I'd like to have stable blood levels of test, as well. I have d-bol, but no anadrol, so I'll likely use that.

oooo that sounds fun are you going to think about the tren?

 

[Pirate!]

No, I've decided against the tren. I might thow in some oral 1-T and up the test a bit for the last two weeks while I raise the T3 significantly.

 

[gococksDJS]

No, I've decided against the tren. I might thow in some oral 1-T and up the test a bit for the last two weeks while I raise the T3 significantly.

any particular reason why you decided against tren?

 

[Pirate!]

No main reason, really. Just keeping it more simple and working with what I have. I'm already going to lose enough hair on my head and grow more hair elsewhere with the other stuff. Some of the sides don't sound too fun, but I'm sure I could take it. Seems like the begining of the cycle is the prefered time to use tren, as well.

 

[ZorroAzul]

EQ does diddly for my appetite.

Ditto.... I tried it for the same reason since I have a problem eating enough but didn't see any results on this aspect. Neither did B12 injections

 

[Mudge]

Only a few people do well with calves, so you will either be lucky or unlucky. I've never risked it.

 

[Pirate!]

Only a few people do well with calves, so you will either be lucky or unlucky. I've never risked it.

That says enough to convince me not to bother doing calves with prop. If I had some Upjohn Test Cyp I'd try it. That stuff is smooth. I suppose I'll stick with quads, glutes, and delts. I've never tried pecs and don't want to try arms or traps. 6 areas should be enough for EOD.