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Dark Matter? Energy?

Muscle Gelz Transdermals
IronMag Labs Prohormones
I jsut keep getting more and more confused. How in the hell can you pull light? It's not a solid, gas, or liquid, it's not a pullable or pushable thing. I think. I heard that a black hole stretches you into a super thing but ridiculously long thing, one second in a black hole is many many many years in real time, and that if you go in one side and lived you'd come out somehwere on the other side of the universe. Yes? How? I'm about to find a church jsut so I can hear that it's all God's will and whatnot so I dont have to think about it, :p
 
I jsut keep getting more and more confused. How in the hell can you pull light? It's not a solid, gas, or liquid, it's not a pullable or pushable thing. I think. I heard that a black hole stretches you into a super thing but ridiculously long thing, one second in a black hole is many many many years in real time, and that if you go in one side and lived you'd come out somehwere on the other side of the universe. Yes? How? I'm about to find a church jsut so I can hear that it's all God's will and whatnot so I dont have to think about it, :p

Light is made of particles called photons.

What you heard about a black hole is wrong. You're thinking of something theoretical called a wormhole. If you were to venture into a black hole you would be crushed instantly.
 
Why crushed? What are the mechanics of a black hole? And are wormholes real? Sorry for the interrogation.

Having said that, where do babies come from?
 
Why crushed? What are the mechanics of a black hole? And are wormholes real? Sorry for the interrogation.

Having said that, where do babies come from?

A dead star may become a blackhole because it has so much mass that it overcomes electron repulsion and collapses on itself (Causing a supernova) to the point where the matter contained in that star is compressed to an unimaginable level. Because of this huge amount of mass, and therefore very strong gravitational pull, you would weigh many times more than what you weigh here (I don't know exactly how much stronger the gravitational pull of a black hole is relative to Earth, but I bet it's thousands and thousands of times stronger, if not millions, billions, or more).

Think about the video of the people walking on the moon. Notice how the kind of "float" around. That's because the gravitational pull of the moon is much less than that of Earth, so you weigh less (Though you have the same amount of mass; mass and weight are different) and the force pulling you back when you jump is less, decelerating you at a slower rate. So, imagine the opposite is true. You are on a planet with more gravitational pull, you weigh more, and gravity pulls you back down even harder. We're talking many many many times harder. Your body would be crushed under that kind of force.
 
I know nothing of wormholes. I doubt they're real in the sense you mentioned anyway.
 
So where does all of it go once its crushed against, not into, the black hole? Wouldn't all the sucked up light illuminate the black hole? Or does everything shrink till it can't be seen too? Wait, lets say a black hole had no gravitational pull and you could see it and touch it. It would be beyond tiny then, right? Like fit in my hands tiny?
 
So where does all of it go once its crushed against, not into, the black hole? Wouldn't all the sucked up light illuminate the black hole? Or does everything shrink till it can't be seen too? Wait, lets say a black hole had no gravitational pull and you could see it and touch it. It would be beyond tiny then, right? Like fit in my hands tiny?

I don't know where it would go. I don't know if the gravitation pull is enough to split particles or what, so I can't say. My very rudimentary knowledge of classical physics isn't going to cut it here.

I have no idea how small it would be. No one has seen one. The only reason people know they exist again is math. Such strong gravitational fields have effects on space-time (Somehow time is relative to an object's velocity compared to light speed, which is a concept I don't fully comprehend).
 
so then it isnt a hole, more of a small, condensed floating object
 
so then it isnt a hole, more of a small, condensed floating object

Right, it's not a hole. It's a star, or a dead star anyway, but they call it a hole because you can't see it (Different from dark matter because the particles contained within aren't inherently non-luminescent, but it's not visible because of it's gravitational pull).
 
So it's own gravitational pull sucks in it's own image(it's own light, w/e)
 
So it's own gravitational pull sucks in it's own image(it's own light, w/e)

It sucks in any and all light.

I hope I'm not butchering these explanations, because my understanding of all this is very limited as is, heh.
 
I appreciate the help, I really am impressed. :thumb:
 
I appreciate the help, I really am impressed. :thumb:

This got me thinking about cosmology again. It's been a while since I've read about it. The last book I started to read was The Elegant Universe, but I never ended up getting too far. I did finish Alpha & Omega, which was an interesting book to read. Great for the layperson, though I'm sure it's disappointing for more informed readers. However, if you are interested in learning more about this kind of thing, then it's a good read.

I think I'm going to start reading The Elegant Universe again this weekend. Dammit. I like reading about too many different topics, heh.
 
Yeah, I'll make the Barnes and Noble stop on Sunday and check it out.

However, if your read the spidey 3 thread, I'll be buying a playboy and a punisher comic at the same time, so don't think of me as intellectually empowered as I am interested. :D
 
At the core of a black-hole is a super-dense pack of mass.
I'm willing to bet that it forms into a type of matter which is millions of times stronger than steel.
 
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/6156110.stm

I've been googling around trying to understand this article, can someone dumb down and explain dark energy and dark matter? My last science teacher was trying to explain ti to me a few days ago and I'm not quite grasping I guess.

try understanding anti matter if thats hard to grasp...I took several physics courses in college. I always like applied physics but the astro physics is just to out there for me.

The only thing I remember about anti matter is that it is the most energy abundant material in the universe...My prof said if you could fabricate enough of it to cover the tip of a pen it would be 1000x more powerful than a hydrothermal nuke...and yes anti can be and is fabricated....just on subatomic level.:wits:
 
Black holes dont really suck, or push or pull, gravity isnt an attactive force like EM for example. Mass will cause warps in space-time, (like a sheet), look at this picture
hypersurface.jpg


The large ball is a star , the small to the right a planet, the sun doesnt pull the planet, but dent space forming 'low' area, the planet then circles around on the crest of the dent, like a basket ball circling around the hoop.

The more massive the object, the more the warp, for example a black hole (not an actual hole, a compressed star so compact the space between the atomic particles has been nearly eliminated)
space-time.gif


Now at the singularity, the exact center of the black hole no one nows what occurs, there may actually be a hole, space make actually be so warped to connects to another place/universe? (worm hole). There is a point of no return called the even horizon which is basically just walking out past the crest, you would slide down the side and could never escape. This is why we cant see inside one because light/radio waves (EM radiation) will circle around the crest(event horizon) an eventually 'fall'' inside

black_hole.jpg


Since we see with light photons, light would not be able to reflect off the singularity(center) back to us since it cant climb out past the crest(event horizon)

Of course there is no actual visual dent or center or hole, you just need to use these as analogs to visualize what is happening, you need an understanding of N dimensional mathematics to really 'see' what happens,(2-3 year university for the basics.

As for dark matter, when einstein first worked out general relativity (explaining warping of space-time) his formulas didnt quite work, so he fudged them by adding a value, called the cosmological constant, this made the formulas nice and clean, but he later rejected it since he figured it was sort of cheating. Turns out just recently its been shown that there is more matter in the universe than just in stars. The amount of stellar mass cant explain the current expansion of the universe, so it has been suggested there are other particles making up the bulk of the matter. This matter doesnt reflect EM radiation, so we cant see, or hear it(microwave, radio waves..etc).

In August 2006, there was some evidence of dark matter being detected. Basically think of it as an invisible atom, like a predator atom. So turns out einstein may have been right in the first place.

There is more evidence that they are not actual holes. See picture 3, the streams of particles shooting up and down from the black hole. Hawking radiation (stephen hawking) The holes eject mass out into space, eventually they will eject all their mass and fizzle out. Current outlook is all the black holes will eat all the stars eventually, then eventually eject all their mass and the universe fizzles out. 1000 billion years?? from now.

The really weird part is the universe is not only expanding but accelerating, this makes no sense, because gravity should be pulling all the galaxies together slowing expansion not increasing the rate. Speculation is the dark matter acts like anti gravity. Eventually everything will be so spread out galaxies and stars will not be allowed to collide to form new structures. The universe ends in a deep black freeze.



As for books. Elegant universe is good, but 1/2 way through it gets thick fast, if you have no math or even college physics you'll be lost instantly. Kaku's books beyond einstein/hyperspace are good and easier for the layman. Time traveling in einsteins universe is good as well on the basics of relativity. Relativity itself, is interesting but need math to appreciate.

Thats the basic jist of it. Just worked 14 hours so sure im missing something.

Go here and read for a year or two,
http://physicsforums.com/
and hit the math books if you want to really understand.

How old are you? If you are really interested in this stuff I suggest learning early. The laymans books give motivation to learn the mathematics to really understand. Math math math. I wish someone pounded that into me when i was in highschool. I spend half my time now polishing my algebra instead of working on new stuff.
 
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try understanding anti matter if thats hard to grasp...I took several physics courses in college. I always like applied physics but the astro physics is just to out there for me.

The only thing I remember about anti matter is that it is the most energy abundant material in the universe...My prof said if you could fabricate enough of it to cover the tip of a pen it would be 1000x more powerful than a hydrothermal nuke...and yes anti can be and is fabricated....just on subatomic level.:wits:


Antimatter is not any more energetic that regular matter. It is when combining regular matter with antimatter, a near perfect conversion(maybe perfect? not sure) from matter to energy occurs, unlike a nuke say 5-10% effiecient. See E=mc^2

Anti particles can be created, but how do you store them. Everything contains protons so puting anti protons in a jar = boom. Magnetic fields are effective, but technology is so primative, a few anti particles at a time can be made.
 
So the sink-like hole in the fabric of space is metaphor used for a tiny object that sucks things into it? I thought on the earlier pages that black holes were no more than a collapsed star that was floating in the middle of space, not indented into it, and that sucked objects onto it, not down into the sink.

Also, I googled but didn't really come up w/ a good explanation. Anti-matter? Is that polarized matter? How did they detect dark matter in August?


I still don't understand how empty space can be indented like a sheet, my mind doesn't really work as abstractly as this.
 
Muscle Gelz Transdermals
IronMag Labs Prohormones
Interesting stuff Simmons. I don't plan on studying this too deeply, but I will probably ingest the knowledge of a few books.

I was always very good with math, but the stuff necessary to comprehend these things is way out of my league. I have taken a college physics course and did very well, but it was basically all classical physics that we learned. I don't think it's going to pan out too well when talking about quantum physics and such, because I know the rules change big time. Not that I couldn't learn though.
 
So where does all of it go once its crushed against, not into, the black hole? Wouldn't all the sucked up light illuminate the black hole? Or does everything shrink till it can't be seen too? Wait, lets say a black hole had no gravitational pull and you could see it and touch it. It would be beyond tiny then, right? Like fit in my hands tiny?
Blackholes are the pupils of larger beings looking down upon us, think about it does your peripheral vision not bend light and then condense everything you see into data stored in your mind....





OH! I was doing time in the universal mind.
I was feeling fine.
I was turning keys, I was setting people free.
I was doing all right.

[Chorus]

I'm the freedom man.
I was doing time in the universal mind.
I was feeling fine.
I was turning keys, I was setting people free.
I was doing all right.

[Chorus]

I'm the freedom man X3

You know the day destroys the night
Night divides the day
Tried to run
Tried to hide

BREAK ON THROUGH...
 
Blackholes are the pupils of larger beings looking down upon us, think about it does your peripheral vision not bend light and then condense everything you see into data stored in your mind....
...
Reminds me of those Marble Galaxies they had in Men in Black.
 
The CMB is light radiation which was used to calculate the rate of expansion of the universe.

There is a limit, but I don't know about walls per se. I don't know what the edge of the universe looks like, but yes, it is finite.

No one knows what dark matter is exactly. It's matter we can't see or identify currently, hence the name.

that's controversial.

there are theories that describe the universe as finite. There are theories that disagree.

but that's more of a philosophical debate than scientific.



can you picture a universe that is bounded? if it is bounded, then what's beyond those boundaries? empty space? but for how long?

and the flip side, how can anything be infinite?

one time, I knew the answer to this. But when the shrooms faded, it didn't make much sense.
 
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I still don't understand how empty space can be indented like a sheet, my mind doesn't really work as abstractly as this.


It took civilization 10000 years to figure this out, dont expect to grasp it in couple days. You cant visualize it because our brains dont work that way, the pictures represent a 2d analog, x and y, you have to pretend theres a 3rd axis. Imagine an infinite amount of sink holes facing in every direction, all with the same focal point.

If you approach from any direction you will 'fall' towards the center.

The universe may be bounded but folded up on itself, so if you look far enough you would eventually see yourself, think of standing on the earth and being able to see past the horizon, if you look far enough, you would see yourself.

Think of an ant walking along a ball, as far as the ant is concerned, its world is 2 dimensions, back/forth left/right.

Now if the ant starts walking straight eventually he'll be at his starting point, this makes no sense to the ant, he doent realise he's moving in a 3rd dimension around the ball. Our universe maybe like that ball, travel far enough and get return to the start, but for us we would be moving in a 4th spacial dimension (not to be confused with the 4th dimension of time)

Here is an old book (100+ years) that describes a world of 2d characters such as circles and squares, who one day learn of the 3rd dimension.

It gives you the ability to consider higher dimensions, by comparing it to lower dimensional creatures
http://www.geom.uiuc.edu/~banchoff/Flatland/

existence of dark matter
http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/astro-ph/pdf/0608/0608407.pdf

antiparticals have opposite charges, electron(-) vs positron(+)
proton(+) vs antiproton(-)


Once again its hard to understand without math.
Example
Area of a square XxY (2 dimensions)
Area of a cube(volume) XxYxZ (3 dimensions)

Replace the variable names for fun
Area of a square X1xX2 (2 dimensions)
Area of a cube(volume) X1xX2xX3 (3 dimensions)

So whats happens if we add another dimension
X1 x X2 x X3 x X4

Thats the volume a cube in 4 dimensions, ever see 4d cube? Nope. Could you draw one? Nope, our world is 3 dimensions. Could you visualize one in you head? Nope.

But the math says it exists.
 
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You can't understand all of God's creations. It is impossible, for He is superior to us mortals.


Honestly, this is the one struggle I have. Humans tend to think they have the answers to everything. Truth is we don't, and we won't. To believe there isn't a higher power out there that created all this seems very odd to me. As humans and cynics most of you will surely disagree.
 
It took civilization 10000 years to figure this out, dont expect to grasp it in couple days. You cant visualize it because our brains dont work that way, the pictures represent a 2d analog, x and y, you have to pretend theres a 3rd axis. Imagine an infinite amount of sink holes facing in every direction, all with the same focal point.

If you approach from any direction you will 'fall' towards the center.

The universe may be bounded but folded up on itself, so if you look far enough you would eventually see yourself, think of standing on the earth and being able to see past the horizon, if you look far enough, you would see yourself.

Think of an ant walking along a ball, as far as the ant is concerned, its world is 2 dimensions, back/forth left/right.

Now if the ant starts walking straight eventually he'll be at his starting point, this makes no sense to the ant, he doent realise he's moving in a 3rd dimension around the ball. Our universe maybe like that ball, travel far enough and get return to the start, but for us we would be moving in a 4th spacial dimension (not to be confused with the 4th dimension of time)

Here is an old book (100+ years) that describes a world of 2d characters such as circles and squares, who one day learn of the 3rd dimension.

It gives you the ability to consider higher dimensions, by comparing it to lower dimensional creatures
http://www.geom.uiuc.edu/~banchoff/Flatland/

existence of dark matter
http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/astro-ph/pdf/0608/0608407.pdf

antiparticals have opposite charges, electron(-) vs positron(+)
proton(+) vs antiproton(-)


Once again its hard to understand without math.
Example
Area of a square XxY (2 dimensions)
Area of a cube(volume) XxYxZ (3 dimensions)

Replace the variable names for fun
Area of a square X1xX2 (2 dimensions)
Area of a cube(volume) X1xX2xX3 (3 dimensions)

So whats happens if we add another dimension
X1 x X2 x X3 x X4

Thats the volume a cube in 4 dimensions, ever see 4d cube? Nope. Could you draw one? Nope, our world is 3 dimensions. Could you visualize one in you head? Nope.

But the math says it exists.

You sir, are a genius. :thinking: How do you create or find anti-particles or anti-matter? Do you have to polarize it yourlsef?
 
that's controversial.

there are theories that describe the universe as finite. There are theories that disagree.

but that's more of a philosophical debate than scientific.



can you picture a universe that is bounded? if it is bounded, then what's beyond those boundaries? empty space? but for how long?

and the flip side, how can anything be infinite?

one time, I knew the answer to this. But when the shrooms faded, it didn't make much sense.

I've never heard any credible source suggest that the universe is infinite. Not one. It's not more philosophical, because there is physical and mathematical evidence to support that the universe is finite, but none that I have ever heard of to suggest that it is infinite.
 
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