Do Less Gain More?

[CowPimp]

Doing less only results in more if you are exceeding your ability to recover by doing more. I feel like people have gone overboard in recent years espousing extremely low volume routines. Here are the facts to keep in mind:

• You have a limited ability to recover. If you exceed this capacity, you will not optimize results. Major factors that influence one's ability to recover include genetics, hormones, sleep, nutrition, and other stressors.

• Working out doesn't build muscle, it breaks down muscle. The stress imposed by resistance training causes tissue damage. It is during your recovery from the workouts that you repair this damage and supercompensate, or re-build beyond the previous baseline.

• If you are not pushing the limits of your ability to recover, then you can, and should, do more. Less is only more if you are exceeding your ability to recover. In fact, over time it is a good idea to try and increase work capacity. Read some stuff from Louie Simmons on this topic.

• The more intense the activity, the more difficult it is to recover from. Therefore, you can get away with doing less if the activity is more intense. You can't half ass it in the gym at very low volumes. If you do plan on performing a low volume routine, you need to be busting your ass.

 

[pebble]

If you have it post it up..... I'll take a look at it. Also the OP can ggudge for himself.

I will post the the articles names. Some have free access to all, others you need a membership.


Nissen SR, Sharp M, Ray JA, Rathmacher D, Rice JC, Fuller Jr, Connelly AS, Abumrad N: Effect of leucine metabolite beta - hydroxy-beta -methylbutyrate on muscle metabolism during resistance-exercise training. J Appl Physiol 1996, 81:2095-2104.

Gontzea, I., Sutzescu, Dumitrache. The influence of daptation to physical effort on nitrogen balance in man. Nutr. Rep. Int. 22: 231-236, 1975. 16.

Van Someren K, Edwards A, Howatson G: The effects of hmb supplementation on indices of exercise-induced muscle damage in man. Medicine & Science in Sports & Exercise 2003, 35(5):270.

Yoshimura H., Inque T, Yamada, Shirkai. Anemia during hard physical training (sports anemia) and its causal mechanism with special reference to protein nutrition. WorZd Rev. Nutr. Diet. 35: l-86, 1980.

Van Someren K, Edwards A, Howatson G: Supplementation with beta-hydroxy-beta-methylbutyrate (HMB) and alpha-ketoisocaproic acid (KIC) reduces signs and symptoms of exercise- induced muscle damage in man. Int J Sport Nutr Exerc Metab 2005, 15(4):413-24.

Jowko E, Ostaszewski P, Jank M, Sacharuk J, Zieniewicz A, Wilczak J, Nissen S: Creatine and β-hydroxy-β-methylbutyrate (HMB) additively increase lean body mass and muscle strength during a weight-training program. Nutr 2001, 17:558-566.

 

[Powermaster]

common sense should tell you if you rested 7 days a week you would be a monster?

Not without training stimulus. You'd be a weak blob.

You get enough rest sleeping for 8 hours and sitting on the couch at home or a chair at work....

Then I'd say you need to bump intensity up or are on some massive amount of gear and eating a ton of food. For a natty beginner...no way.

Peeps do cardio 7 days a week and are in perfect shape.. did they need to rest more ????

Endurance training... Not sure what the relevance is here to the topic on gaining mass and strength, enlighten me.

 

[Powermaster]

Doing less only results in more if you are exceeding your ability to recover by doing more. I feel like people have gone overboard in recent years espousing extremely low volume routines. Here are the facts to keep in mind:

• You have a limited ability to recover. If you exceed this capacity, you will not optimize results. Major factors that influence one's ability to recover include genetics, hormones, sleep, nutrition, and other stressors.

• Working out doesn't build muscle, it breaks down muscle. The stress imposed by resistance training causes tissue damage. It is during your recovery from the workouts that you repair this damage and supercompensate, or re-build beyond the previous baseline.

• If you are not pushing the limits of your ability to recover, then you can, and should, do more. Less is only more if you are exceeding your ability to recover. In fact, over time it is a good idea to try and increase work capacity. Read some stuff from Louie Simmons on this topic.

• The more intense the activity, the more difficult it is to recover from. Therefore, you can get away with doing less if the activity is more intense. You can't half ass it in the gym at very low volumes. If you do plan on performing a low volume routine, you need to be busting your ass.

This pretty much says it all.

 

[ben1793]

I just want to add, I didnt realise this was a anabolic forum but wanted to clear up I dont take any gear, I am beginner and dont plan on taking any gear yet.

 

[pebble]

Are you looking to gain Fatty weight or Lean Muscle weight?

Is this a rethorical question? And based off your advice I would assume he is looking to gain no weight. You didn’t provide him with a caloric surplus.

DIETS FOR BUILDING LEAN MUSCLE:

To gain weight of any type, you must consume more calories than you burn through exercise and daily activities. If your goal is to gain weight in the form of lean muscle mass, choose the right balance of calories to give your body the fuel to build muscle. Combine this with a strength training, muscle building exercise routine, and you will see the muscles begin to build.

This isn’t true. You can build muscle (or LBM) , lose fat, and decreased total weight at the same time as long as you are meeting your protein requirements and have a stimulus to cause muscle adaption. The energy deficit created by the diet can be supplemented by lipolysis of triglycerides. This allows the body to fuel the activity of building new, or adding to existing lean body tissue (muscle included) while reducing total body fat and total weight. 3

Overall Calories:
Finding the right amount of calories for your current size is the key to building lean muscle and not adding fat. recommend consuming 18 to 20 calories per pound of body weight each training day if you are trying to gain lean muscle mass, dropping to 12 to 14 calories per pound on rest days. These calories should be divided amongst six to eight small meals.

Or he could use the Harris Benedict formula to estimate his basal metabolic rate and then use an activity multiplier to estimate his daily caloric needs. That gives him a starting point and he can adjust to his needs based of the simple method I outlined in a previous post in this thread.
I bet the method that is based on scientific data and years of research is a probably the way to do this.

Proteins:
Protein provides the body with amino acids, which are the building blocks of muscle tissue. recommend consuming 40 to 60 g of protein at each meal. Sources of protein include lean cuts of meat such as chicken or turkey breast, pork, low-fat dairy products, and nuts or nut butters. You may also use a protein powder to make a protein shake if you need additional protein at a meal. Keep your protein intake the same on days you train and days you rest, because your muscles need the protein to repair themselves after training.

Provided some literary references why one should do what is bolded . I can provide evidence that states that more than 20g of whey at a time does not add any benefit in terms of increased levels protein synthesis.

Carbohydrates:
Carbohydrates provide energy for your workouts. Aim for 40 to 80 g of carbohydrates at each meal on days you train, for a total of between 240 and 480. On days you do not train, aim for between 100 and 200 g of carbohydrates. Choose carbohydrates that are high in fiber because these help your digestive system to function at its best. High-fiber sources of carbohydrate include fruits, vegetables and whole grains.

Shouldn’t this number be based off of the total caloric goal? It should be the left of what ones protein and lipid needs are. At that point you can divide it up as you see fit. You can use them to pulse nutrients, like the unified diet, or you can use it to create a more balanced a neutral state, by eating more frequently.

And if you want the dude to carb cycle, come out and say it. But the way you have it laid out is haphazardly with no real reasoning.

Fats:
Fats also provide energy for workouts, but too much fat can lead to gaining fat tissue instead of lean muscle tissue. Recommend 5 to 10 g per meal come from healthy fats, including fatty fish, olive oil or nuts. These healthy fats will help fuel muscle growth and aid in your energy levels while you work out. Recommend keeping your fat intake to 15 to 20 percent of your daily diet.

Do fats provide energy for workouts? Maybe for low steady state walking, but if you are doing resistance training you can be damn sure that fats are not providing you the energy you need. The rate of ATP (energy) synthesis from lipids does not meet the rate of the bodies demand for ATP during resistance training. Your body relies on plasma glucose, intramuscular glucose, and intramuscular ATP (+ CP for re-synthesis).
And dude even the general food guidelines of the US say to eat about 30% fat. It even notes going as low as 15-20% can cause endocrine (reproduction related – so yes testosterone) problems in males and females respectively.

DIETS FOR GAINING FATTY WEIGHT:

1. Eat Tons of carbohydrates a day.

2. Eat tons of fat a day.

3. Eat a low protein diet each day.

The terms ‘tons’ in your context is not a unit and therefore holds no value. Using the terms ‘tons’ is ambiguous and adds no value or substance to your argument. Give me some numbers …
Your posts are a joke. They are full of a bunch of broscience you read online, in a magazine, or heard from a friend. Educate yourself.

3 Effect of a Hypocaloric Diet, Increased Protein Intake and Resistance Training on Lean Mass Gains and Fat Mass Loss in Overweight Police Officers

 

[pebble]

I just want to add, I didnt realise this was a anabolic forum but wanted to clear up I dont take any gear, I am beginner and dont plan on taking any gear yet.

That is a smart move.

 

[Powermaster]

I can provide evidence that states that more than 20g of whey at a time does not add any benefit in terms of increased levels protein synthesis.

Wouldn't a minimum amount of whey protein to initiate protein synthesis be determined by it's leucine content?
From research I've seen a minimum of 2.5 to 3g of leucine would be required and is roughly 8 to 11% by volume in whey protein which should equal more like a 30g serving.
I'm interested in your thoughts and findings on this.

 

[ben1793]

THE ONLY THING THAT CONFUSED ME IS THIS:

You all say 5+ days a week is OVERTRAIN, but how can this be true?
Think about it, if you train 1 musclegroup per day and let it rest 1 week, beginners are told to do 3x full body workouts...isnt that overtrain?

I just think to myself, 3 days when I am siting around for another 4 doing nothing just feels bad, I did a bad workout routine went like this:
chest
shoulders
triceps
for the start of the week...I recovered and gained from it, if that helped me gain wouldnt a decent 5 day program?

 

[justhav2p]

Not without training stimulus. You'd be a weak blob.


Then I'd say you need to bump intensity up or are on some massive amount of gear and eating a ton of food. For a natty beginner...no way.



Endurance training... Not sure what the relevance is here to the topic on gaining mass and strength, enlighten me.

you don't understand sarcasm do you?

 

[justhav2p]

THE ONLY THING THAT CONFUSED ME IS THIS:

You all say 5+ days a week is OVERTRAIN, but how can this be true?
Think about it, if you train 1 musclegroup per day and let it rest 1 week, beginners are told to do 3x full body workouts...isnt that overtrain?

I just think to myself, 3 days when I am siting around for another 4 doing nothing just feels bad, I did a bad workout routine went like this:
chest
shoulders
triceps
for the start of the week...I recovered and gained from it, if that helped me gain wouldnt a decent 5 day program?

It's not overtraining...Power is an idiot.

CowPimp summed it up nicely. Just don't work the same muscle more then 1x a week and your golden... Don't spend more then an hour working out that muscle group a day either and your golden.

 

[ben1793]

So if I recover from that I will gain faster than the starting strength? just because starting strength is a 3 day program and I want more time in the gym, I like it
So will I benefit more on 5 days if I eat ALLOT and recover?

 

[pebble]

it's not overtraining...power is an idiot.

Cowpimp summed it up nicely. Just don't work the same muscle more then 1x a week and your golden... don't spend more then an hour working out that muscle group a day either and your golden.

wtf?

 

[justhav2p]

YES.

Everyworkout,.... hit that muscle hard. The rest for the muscle will be the week you spend working on other body parts.

Don't forget or skimp on legs... in order to have a large upper body, you need wheels too.

 

[pebble]

THE ONLY THING THAT CONFUSED ME IS THIS:

You all say 5+ days a week is OVERTRAIN, but how can this be true?
Think about it, if you train 1 musclegroup per day and let it rest 1 week, beginners are told to do 3x full body workouts...isnt that overtrain?

I just think to myself, 3 days when I am siting around for another 4 doing nothing just feels bad, I did a bad workout routine went like this:
chest
shoulders
triceps
for the start of the week...I recovered and gained from it, if that helped me gain wouldnt a decent 5 day program?

No one is saying you will over train. What I am saying is that you will reap more rewards for less effort with a program based around linear periodization (and neurological adaptations - strength based) at this time. I am all for doing as little as possible to get the most reward. I don't want to spend hours in the gym when I could spend minutes for the same gains (arbitrary units of time).

I think you should start off with something basic and when your body stops adapting to it move onto something that puts you in the gym a little more and adds more volume/ stress to the workouts to allow you to continue to make progress.

Start small and move toward big. If you start big you have nowhere to go.

 

[pebble]

YES.

Everyworkout,.... hit that muscle hard. The rest for the muscle will be the week you spend working on other body parts.

Don't forget or skimp on legs... in order to have a large upper body, you need wheels too.

Hypertrophy is not systemic, it is local. You do not need to have big legs to have big arms. Look around and gym and the theoretical evidence will be abundant.


I suggest you read some old western bloc training methodology. You really no nothing about perdioization.

 

[ben1793]

Workout A
3x5 Squat
3x5 Bench Press
1x5 Deadlift
2x8 Dips

Workout B
3x5 Squat
3x5 press
3x5 power cleans
2x8 Chin-ups

Thats what I saw in the SS program, you say I will gain with less, if I do this alternating non consecutive days will I gain more than 5 day split?
Do I lift as heavy as possible with good form every workout day?
Is there any way I can add anything to other days to spend more time in the gym?

Just researching both programs, I will try them both and see what happens, start with this first and see how I feel.

 

[pebble]

Wouldn't a minimum amount of whey protein to initiate protein synthesis be determined by it's leucine content?
From research I've seen a minimum of 2.5 to 3g of leucine would be required and is roughly 8 to 11% by volume in whey protein which should equal more like a 30g serving.
I'm interested in your thoughts and findings on this.

Here is a link to the article. Its a free to view full content. Ingested protein dose response of muscle and albumin protein synthesis after resistance exercise in young men

And it isn't leucine that trigers protein synthesis. Its the metabolite, β-Hydroxy β-methylbutyric acidHMB. But beyond that there are many factors that stimulate protein synthesis. Take a look for research on the mTOR pathway and all of its factors.


And I have posted the following before elsewhere and will post it again here, because I think it could be useful.

First off during RT cortisol rises, you can defend against this with CHO (causes insulin spike which cause a shift from catabolism to anabolism therefore less muscle break down).

This is RT of 3 sets of 10 reps for 8 exercise (each a primary movement patteren). Notice that Cortisol Rises.

See there that the more cortisol one has in their body the less muscle mass they are expected to have. Cortisol is bad for muscle growth (in most cases).
But if you take some CHO.

We can see that it stays relatively low throughout RT and into recovery.
Second, you should be drinking CHO and protein (or essential amino acids or mixed amino acids - but know the response they elicite compaired to traditional whey (EAA 8-10g= 20g Whey, MAA 12-15 = 20g whey)).

Notice that the Combo of CHO and an amino acid promote greatest levels of protein synthesis.

And some other information to drive home the point:
Effect of individual treatments on protein synthesis (above resting values)

• hyperinsulinemia +50%
• resistance exercise +100%
• increased aa availability +150%
• resistance ex + aa avail +200%
• resist ex + aa avail + CHO +400%

- from various Rasmussen studies

Third, you should be drinking said shake pre workout to maximize results.

There is a drastic difference between levels of protein synthesis between the groups, and the most favourable outcome is pre exercise.

 

[pebble]

Workout A
3x5 Squat
3x5 Bench Press
1x5 Deadlift
2x8 Dips

Workout B
3x5 Squat
3x5 press
3x5 power cleans
2x8 Chin-ups

Thats what I saw in the SS program, you say I will gain with less, if I do this alternating non consecutive days will I gain more than 5 day split?
Do I lift as heavy as possible with good form every workout day?
Is there any way I can add anything to other days to spend more time in the gym?

Just researching both programs, I will try them both and see what happens, start with this first and see how I feel.

You will not gain less if you do both with equal intensity and attention to detail. As long as you are eating an adequate amount of calories (and macro-nutrients) you will gain roughly the same on both routines. You will grow from just about anything at this point in your training life.

The difference is that one routine will better set you up to make gains off the next routine. Doing starting strength first will followed by some hypertrophy specific split with an extra day and a little more volume to each movement pattern ( or muscle group if you prefer) will allow you to continue to progress easily.

 

[Powermaster]

Very interesting stuff Pebble. Thanks!

 

[justhav2p]

Hypertrophy is not systemic, it is local. You do not need to have big legs to have big arms. Look around and gym and the theoretical evidence will be abundant.


I suggest you read some old western bloc training methodology. You really no nothing about perdioization.

so your saying when working out legs it doesnt release all the stored up testosterone that helps repair and buld your body?

I don't need to read about how to workout.. I live it Jagoff.

 

[pebble]

so your saying when working out legs it doesnt release all the stored up testosterone that helps repair and buld your body?

I don't need to read about how to workout.. I live it Jagoff.

I am saying it does not play close to the role you think it does. Try to find some evidence of what you are stating. There is no evidence that can prove that training legs makes the rest of the body grow. Like I said before hypertrophy is not systemic. It is local.

With all of your life and training experience I was wondering if you could explain a something to me: Why don't all of the guys that train back all day have big legs? The back is full of very large muscles.

 

[justhav2p]

I am saying it does not play close to the role you think it does. Try to find some evidence of what you are stating. There is no evidence that can prove that training legs makes the rest of the body grow. Like I said before hypertrophy is not systemic. It is local.

With all of your life and training experience I was wondering if you could explain a something to me: Why don't all of the guys that train back all day have big legs? The back is full of very large muscles.

Because they are scrawny fucks mostly from Brazil who think kicking a ball is enough.

 

[stewy101]

Is this a rethorical question? And based off your advice I would assume he is looking to gain no weight. You didn???t provide him with a caloric surplus.




This isn???t true. You can build muscle (or LBM) , lose fat, and decreased total weight at the same time as long as you are meeting your protein requirements and have a stimulus to cause muscle adaption. The energy deficit created by the diet can be supplemented by lipolysis of triglycerides. This allows the body to fuel the activity of building new, or adding to existing lean body tissue (muscle included) while reducing total body fat and total weight. 3



Or he could use the Harris Benedict formula to estimate his basal metabolic rate and then use an activity multiplier to estimate his daily caloric needs. That gives him a starting point and he can adjust to his needs based of the simple method I outlined in a previous post in this thread.
I bet the method that is based on scientific data and years of research is a probably the way to do this.




Provided some literary references why one should do what is bolded . I can provide evidence that states that more than 20g of whey at a time does not add any benefit in terms of increased levels protein synthesis.




Shouldn???t this number be based off of the total caloric goal? It should be the left of what ones protein and lipid needs are. At that point you can divide it up as you see fit. You can use them to pulse nutrients, like the unified diet, or you can use it to create a more balanced a neutral state, by eating more frequently.

And if you want the dude to carb cycle, come out and say it. But the way you have it laid out is haphazardly with no real reasoning.




Do fats provide energy for workouts? Maybe for low steady state walking, but if you are doing resistance training you can be damn sure that fats are not providing you the energy you need. The rate of ATP (energy) synthesis from lipids does not meet the rate of the bodies demand for ATP during resistance training. Your body relies on plasma glucose, intramuscular glucose, and intramuscular ATP (+ CP for re-synthesis).
And dude even the general food guidelines of the US say to eat about 30% fat. It even notes going as low as 15-20% can cause endocrine (reproduction related ??? so yes testosterone) problems in males and females respectively.


The terms ???tons??? in your context is not a unit and therefore holds no value. Using the terms ???tons??? is ambiguous and adds no value or substance to your argument. Give me some numbers ???
Your posts are a joke. They are full of a bunch of broscience you read online, in a magazine, or heard from a friend. Educate yourself.

3 Effect of a Hypocaloric Diet, Increased Protein Intake and Resistance Training on Lean Mass Gains and Fat Mass Loss in Overweight Police Officers

References
Haverford College Athletics: Strength and Conditioning: Nutrition Essentials
Centers for Disease Control and Prevention: Carbohydrates
Columbia University: Go Ask Alice!: Amino Acid Supplements
Harvard School of Public Health: The Nutrition Source Fats and Cholesterol: Out With the Bad, In With the Good
MayoClinic.com; Healthy Diet: End the Guesswork with These Nutrition Guidelines; Mayo Clinic Staff; Feb. 22, 2011
University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign: McKinley Health Center: Designing a Resistance Training Program


Have a good day

 

[pebble]

References
Haverford College Athletics: Strength and Conditioning: Nutrition Essentials
Centers for Disease Control and Prevention: Carbohydrates
Columbia University: Go Ask Alice!: Amino Acid Supplements
Harvard School of Public Health: The Nutrition Source Fats and Cholesterol: Out With the Bad, In With the Good
MayoClinic.com; Healthy Diet: End the Guesswork with These Nutrition Guidelines; Mayo Clinic Staff; Feb. 22, 2011
University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign: McKinley Health Center: Designing a Resistance Training Program


Have a good day

You do understand that the sources you posted contradicts the information you have posted right?

Here are a couple examples:
1. mayo clinic suggests 44 to 78 grams of fats on a 2k kcal diet. You suggested less for a 2.5k diet you outlined.

2.Uni of Illi - suggests working back and biceps together. you said this is the wrong thing to do.

Posting some random links to generic information does not constitute as providing literary references.

Maybe you want to try again. You can find research to support just anything out there.

Oh and maybe this time you can try to refute my claims with counter points (and some real references) about the topics I am questioning you about instead of just spouting off more random information. The strawman tactics are frivolous.

 

[stewy101]

You do understand that the sources you posted contradicts the information you have posted right?

Here are a couple examples:
1. mayo clinic suggests 44 to 78 grams of fats on a 2k kcal diet. You suggested less for a 2.5k diet you outlined.

2.Uni of Illi - suggests working back and biceps together. you said this is the wrong thing to do.

Posting some random links to generic information does not constitute as providing literary references.

Maybe you want to try again. You can find research to support just anything out there.

Oh and maybe this time you can try to refute my claims with counter points (and some real references) about the topics I am questioning you about instead of just spouting off more random information. The strawman tactics are frivolous.

Listen Numbnuts I have had about enough of your bullshit. I have been doing this off and on for 28 fkn years. You sound like some little punkass in collage who has nothing better to do than run your fkn mouth. Its time to shut the hell up and let people who actually know what there doing do there job. Go write an article about your little punk ass bullshit to someone who gives a damn and shut the fk up. I am done with you shit for brains. I have been using this formula for years and it WORKS for me and everyone else who uses it. So go play with your little dolls or yourself and give it a rest.

 

[pebble]

Listen Numbnuts I have had about enough of your bullshit. I have been doing this off and on for 28 fkn years. You sound like some little punkass in collage who has nothing better to do than run your fkn mouth. Its time to shut the hell up and let people who actually know what there doing do there job. Go write an article about your little punk ass bullshit to someone who gives a damn and shut the fk up. I am done with you shit for brains. I have been using this formula for years and it WORKS for me and everyone else who uses it. So go play with your little dolls or yourself and give it a rest.

Thanks for cracking and letting everyone see your true colors. So my guess is you don't have any empirical evidence for your claims. Enjoy doing it your way, but maybe it's time to open your mind and start learning more current information from the 'kid'. You may even make a little extra progress because of it.

Good luck,
Pebble

P.S. So you realy don't have any counterpoints to the arguments I brought forth? We could have an intellectual conversation about it if you feel up to it.

 

[stewy101]

Thanks for cracking and letting everyone see your true colors. So my guess is you don't have any empirical evidence for your claims. Enjoy doing it your way, but maybe it's time to open your mind and start learning more current information from the 'kid'. You may even make a little extra progress because of it.

Good luck,
Pebble

P.S. So you realy don't have any counterpoints to the arguments I brought forth? We could have an intellectual conversation about it if you feel up to it.

WOW you really are an immature little prick aren't you. I Have been doing this longer than you have been alive and YOU are going to tell ME how to utilize my workouts, diet and nutrition. You have got to be kidding me son. Your a joke. A big fkn joke and now everyone see's that. I quit working out a little over 2 years ago because of a back injury i got at work. I weighed 190 pounds of lean muscle at the time doing the same routine i put fourth on here. I sat around for 2 years doing nothing but feeling sorry for myself because I could not workout any longer and ate like a pig. I got up to 210lbs of fat. After those 2 years went by i was able to get back in the gym and workout some. I wanted to loose the fatty weight BAD. I went on a diet that consist of :

6 meals a day:

Protein: body weight times 1.5 grams
Carbohydrates: Body weight times 1
Fats: Body weight times .22

I lost 45lbs of body fat in 4 months.
Went from 210lbs to 165lbs

2 weeks ago I changed my diet because my goal now is to add lean muscle.
Goal weight: 190lbs of lean muscle

6 meals a day:

Protein: body weight times 1.5
Carbohydrates: At least 40 grams at each meal= 240 grams everyday
Fats: 40 grams a day

How much weight have I gained in 2 weeks sense changing my diet to add lean muscle mass?

7lbs: I have gone from 165lbs to 172lbs AND GAINING.

I know what works son. Maybe one day when you grow up and actually become a bodybuilder or just want to workout a little give me a call and I will show you how to do it right. Until then keep chomping at the bit and chasing bones because I just threw you one when I sent you on that wild goose chase.

 

[triplstep]

 

[justhav2p]