Does different pin size affect absorption?

[Tre]

Hi I just wondered if it really mattered what size pins you use, & which sites you use in terms of absorption;
I've never pinned any other way than 22g 1-1/2" pins in glutes.

I read that alot of you like to pin delts, or triceps with smaller sizes so it's easier to rotate sites more frequently with shorter esters; I also read that when using parts like delts, that the compound releases quicker (I'm guessing it favors shorter esters like prop, & ace, rather than the longer esters like enanthate.

I rarely feel it in glutes with any oils, I've never had pain when pressing the plunger; I only occasionally have a very, very slight pain when the 1-1/2" pin hits the base of the needle.

Does it really matter, or should I just keep pinning the way I do it, with the size pin I mentioned??

 

[XYZ]

No it does not matter.

Bigger muscles will allow the oil to dispurse a little faster but not by much.

As long as it's getting into the muscle nothing else really matters.

 

[blergs.]

size matters more for comfort and scar tissue than anything else.

 

[Tre]

Thanks a bunch for clearing that up mates; take it easy!

Cheers

 

[rwm088]

I was wondering if you could elaborate further on that point specifically blergs?

 

[Digitalash]

more concentrated gear will dissipate faster than one that is lower mg and more oil, and also as mentioned above larger muscles like quad/glute release a little faster. Its not enough to worry about IMO and no I don't think the actual size of pin matters, maybe depth but as long as its in muscle thats good enough for me

 

[rwm088]

I ask cause I am looking to do my first cycle later this year and one concern I have is scar tissue build up over time. I know Jose Canseco in his book I remember recommended alternating between the left and right glute.

 

[MDR]

Kinda scary that I agree with something Canseco said, but all I ever did was alternate between left and right glutes.

 

[moodyman1]

simple..smaller needles to less damage (and are less painful)..hence a slower build up of scar tissue. Rotating as much as possible also slows down scar tissue build up at any given injection site.

 

[kad37]

It does not matter as long as you alternate sites.

 

[Mike Arnold]

Some muscles do favor a slightly faster absoprtion rate, due to increased blood flow in the region, although eventually, all the testosterone will be absorbed regardless.

In my opinion, stop using 22 g. pins NOW. They are not necessary and cause significantly more scar tissue build-up than necessary. You should ALWAYS use the shortest and thinnest needled possible, which will still allow the oil to pushed sufficiently into the muscle. Using a longer and fatter pin than needed serves no pupose, but has negative effets on the body, so why do it? In addition, most people do not need to use a 1.5 inch pin either...not even in the glutes, unless you are carrying quite a bit of sub-q bodyfat. If you are even remotey lean compare to the typical person (18% or under) than 1.5 inch pins are not necessary. Depending on oil bolume and injection site, a .5-1.0 inch pin is all most people will need.

I suggest reading the "Steroid User Injection Manual", which is stickied in the Purity Source Labs forum. It is the most comprehensive manual on injection practices I have ever personally seen, which touches on just about everything. It is broken down into 17 chapters, along with a few sub-chapters for easy reference. It is doubtfull you have any questions that can't be answered there.

 

[rwm088]

I will check that out, thanks Mike.

 

[TrojanMan60563]

I used to mess with the 25g pins and 23g pins too. Since starting TRT my doctor told me to use 22g pins and so I have ever since. I like that its not a huge bitch to push oil through them. They don't really hurt more than a 25g would. The only difference I notice is that I don't have to wait like a minute to push all the oil through it. With a 22g you can push as fast as you want, or feel comfortable with. I like getting in and getting out and pushing with just enough force it doesn't hurt but gets the job done. So 1ml is like 5 seconds worth of plunging.

 

[Mike Arnold]

I used to mess with the 25g pins and 23g pins too. Since starting TRT my doctor told me to use 22g pins and so I have ever since. I like that its not a huge bitch to push oil through them. They don't really hurt more than a 25g would. The only difference I notice is that I don't have to wait like a minute to push all the oil through it. With a 22g you can push as fast as you want, or feel comfortable with. I like getting in and getting out and pushing with just enough force it doesn't hurt but gets the job done. So 1ml is like 5 seconds worth of plunging.

For one, it isn't about what "hurts" more. Two, you might prefer the convenience of faster injections, but your body doesn't. From a health standpoint, saving an extra 5-10 seconds per injection is not worth the excess scar tissue build-up you will experience from regularly usinga 22 g. In addition, it should not be taking you 30 secoinds to push oil through a 25 g. if you are trying to push it through faster....and it certainly should not be happening with a 23 g. Any oil that takes 30 seconds to push through a 23 g. must be as think as molasses...and much of the UGL gear being produced today can be pushed through a 25 g. in 15-20 seconds....and I am referring to a full 3 cc's. Time to try some new gear, perhaps?

Regardless, your doctor is giving you poor advice. You should NOT be usinga 22 g. as a steroid user. Why not at least switch to a 23 g.? There is virtually no difference between injections times, yet it is thinner, resulting in descreased scar tissue?

 

[adamryi]

Mike Arnold is 100% spot on.

Why use the bigger gauge needle and create excess scar tissue from 23g or 22g if a 25g will work in most applications. Ive had gear made with 100% GSO and flows effortlessly through a 25g needle. I personally use 27g 1/2inch for delts, traps, bis and tris with no issues. If using gear with 50-100% EO, it flows through 29g slin pins like butter. Someone I know used 23g needles ever since he started (probably 5 years) and now makes a horrendous pop every time he sticks himself. Its like hes throwing a dart as hard as he can to get through the scar tissue. Hes using 25g needles now and he regrets big time using the bigger needle.

 

[TrojanMan60563]

I guess IM can be 22-25g depending on your injection site. I would probably give 25g another shot for quad injections since I inject less volume and have more control since the injection site is right in from of me. For 2-3cc injections a 22-23g seems most reasonable to me. Plus being that I use a 1 1/2" needle for glute injections I think a little thicker needle gives me more confidence.

Also the volume flows better through a bigger needle and increased volume at lower pressure would equal less pain post injection vs the slower but high pressure coming out of the smaller needle. So I would think scar tissue build up from a 25g could be just as bad right? I don't know that I am convinced that scar tissue is based on needle size only. What causes scar tissue is frequency of injections in an area. Rotating sites seems like a better preventative measure than picking a smaller needle gauge. I do my Test cyp injections every 5 days and I rotate glutes and quads. So I'm only injection the same site every 25 days. At that rate I cannot see scar tissue being less by needle selection. Thoughts?

 

[chocolatemalt]

The wide rotation method of avoiding scar tissue seems sound to me. I'm using ventral and dorsal glutes, and front and back thighs (distal and proximal vastus lateralis) which gives me eight pin spots. On EOD schedule that's a 16-day cycle before revisiting a previous location. By slightly shifting pin spots by an inch or so in each location I can effectively increase the total spots by a factor of 3x or 4x. Hopefully this allows complete healing of any prior damage and toning down of trauma-related blood vessels. I haven't gotten tren cough yet (knock on wood) so maybe this plan is working.

 

[TrojanMan60563]

The wide rotation method of avoiding scar tissue seems sound to me. I'm using ventral and dorsal glutes, and front and back thighs (distal and proximal vastus lateralis) which gives me eight pin spots. On EOD schedule that's a 16-day cycle before revisiting a previous location. By slightly shifting pin spots by an inch or so in each location I can effectively increase the total spots by a factor of 3x or 4x. Hopefully this allows complete healing of any prior damage and toning down of trauma-related blood vessels. I haven't gotten tren cough yet (knock on wood) so maybe this plan is working.

I think your reasoning is more in tune with mine. I want to hit ventral glutes but I am not sure how. I always hit dorsal glutes even though I hear ventral is easier to self inject. I have to use the bathroom mirror to see what I'm doing when doing a dorsal glute injection. Was a little tricky at first but now its for sure my favorite site to inject.

 

[chocolatemalt]

I want to hit ventral glutes but I am not sure how.

It's pretty easy once you've done it once. It'll become your go-to spot after that, quite a bit easier to reach than dorsal glutes. This is a decent tutorial: Ventrogluteal Injection

 

[Jenie]

I never used any pin before, but my friend tells me 25g is the best for shots.
I never done any before, but seems to make sense smaller would be better if you can get the oil through it. I would be wrong.
I just looked at 1.5" on a ruler you guys are NUTS!! thats DEEP I quivered just now!! haha

 

[Mike Arnold]

I guess IM can be 22-25g depending on your injection site. I would probably give 25g another shot for quad injections since I inject less volume and have more control since the injection site is right in from of me. For 2-3cc injections a 22-23g seems most reasonable to me. Plus being that I use a 1 1/2" needle for glute injections I think a little thicker needle gives me more confidence.

Also the volume flows better through a bigger needle and increased volume at lower pressure would equal less pain post injection vs the slower but high pressure coming out of the smaller needle. So I would think scar tissue build up from a 25g could be just as bad right? I don't know that I am convinced that scar tissue is based on needle size only. What causes scar tissue is frequency of injections in an area. Rotating sites seems like a better preventative measure than picking a smaller needle gauge. I do my Test cyp injections every 5 days and I rotate glutes and quads. So I'm only injection the same site every 25 days. At that rate I cannot see scar tissue being less by needle selection. Thoughts?

No...the scar tissue build-up from a 25 g. will never be as bad as a 22 g....not even clolse. In addition, your whole "pressure" theory is incorrect. For one, there is NOT more pressure being applied against the muscle with a 25 g....there is less. Despite the thinner needle, because the oil is being pressed through the pin so slolwy, you can't even feel the oil going in most of the time. Because of the quicker speed with which you can depress the punlger when using a 22 g, you will feel it much more. Two, a 25.g would certainly NOT cause more pain...it causes less. The smaller the needle, the less pain there is...period. You are also misguided on how scar tissue forms. Scar tissue forms EVERY time you give yourself an injection...and the more injections you give, the more scar tissue you form. By rotating injection sites, you are simply distributing your scar tissue over a larger area, instead of having it all build up in one place. Lastly, thinking in size is irrelevant is way off base. Larger pins cause greater muscle damage and therefore, more scar tissue. The larger the pin, the more scar tissue is formed. This is common knowledge and the primary reason we should use the smallest pin possible. If you disagree, start using a 10 g. pin for all injects. It will only take you 1 second to depress the plunger.

 

[TrojanMan60563]

No...the scar tissue build-up from a 25 g. will never be as bad as a 22 g....not even clolse. In addition, your whole "pressure" theory is incorrect. For one, there is NOT more pressure being applied against the muscle with a 25 g....there is less. Despite the thinner needle, because the oil is being pressed through the pin so slolwy, you can't even feel the oil going in most of the time. Because of the quicker speed with which you can depress the punlger when using a 22 g, you will feel it much more. Two, a 22.g would certainly NOT cause more pain...it causes less. The smaller the needle, the less pain there is...period. You are also misguided on how scar tissue forms. Scar tissue forms EVERY time you give yourself an injection...and the more injections you give, the more scar tissue you form. By rotating injection sites, you are simply distributing your scar tissue over a larger area, instead of having it all build up in one place. Lastly, thinking in size is irrelevant is way off base. Larger pins cause greater muscle damage and therefore, more scar tissue. The larger the pin, the more scar tissue is formed. This is common knowledge and the primary reason we should use the smallest pin possible. If you disagree, start using a 10 g. pin for all injects. It will only take you 1 second to depress the plunger.

I don't think the size difference between 22 and 25g is that significant. I don't have pain from 22g going in or during injection. When doing an injection in a spot that is hard to reach or stay steady I don't want to fiddle with a hard to push plunger. Needle movement in the muscle also causes scar tissue. I'd rather be able to inject faster yet still slow enough not to cause pain. Frequency of injection IMO plays a larger role in scar tissue. Second biggest factor is good technique, and last being needle size within reason. Like I said a 22g isn't that much larger than a 25g.

 

[TrojanMan60563]

It's pretty easy once you've done it once. It'll become your go-to spot after that, quite a bit easier to reach than dorsal glutes. This is a decent tutorial: Ventrogluteal Injection

I am for sure looking into it. It just looks like its the side of your hip and not a glute muscle in the photos they show. I have a friend in the medical field maybe he can show me how to find it on myself assuming that doesn't creep him out..doubt it will but who knows.

 

[jshel12]

I recently switched from a 23g over to a 25g both 1 inch. No difference in time to push oil through, or atleast not more than a second or 2 more. But I have noticed a significant reduction in scar tissue in my glutes. I also just rotate left and right glutes with a delt shot occasionally. Tre try a 25g 1 inch pin. You will definately wish you made the switch sooner, I sure did.

 

[TrojanMan60563]

I am going to order some 1" 25g pins and try them on quad and delt injections. I might switch to 23 1.5" for glutes. My prior experience was all UGL oils. Now that I am on paddock test maybe it will flow easier through the pins. I know the TRT clinic I am going to use compounds their products in very thin oil I forget what they said it was, but its the thinnest oil and most healthy. They have said in the past 25g are fine for their oils. So I'm not knocking 25g. I just think injection volume and frequency is a much bigger factor than gauge size. I've been rotating 4 sites now with 22g needles for a straight year and I don't have any scar tissue that I can speak of. So that is why I have the opinion that I do. Mostly basing my opinion on my own experience and lack of scar tissue.

 

[Mike Arnold]

I don't think the size difference between 22 and 25g is that significant. I don't have pain from 22g going in or during injection. When doing an injection in a spot that is hard to reach or stay steady I don't want to fiddle with a hard to push plunger. Needle movement in the muscle also causes scar tissue. I'd rather be able to inject faster yet still slow enough not to cause pain. Frequency of injection IMO plays a larger role in scar tissue. Second biggest factor is good technique, and last being needle size within reason. Like I said a 22g isn't that much larger than a 25g.

If you are only going to be doing a few cycles, then I would agree, pin size doesn't matter very much...but if you're going to be doing this for years like most steroid users, over time, the difference is considerable...leading to FAR more scar tissue build-up. There are 2 different factors wich influence the rate of scar tissue build-up. They are frequency of injection (total number of injections given) and needle thickness. There is a 3rd factor which influences how quickly scar tissue build-ups within a particular area...and that is how often you inject into the same area.

As far as frequncy of injection playing a larger role in scar tisue build-up goes than frequency of injection, you re looking at it from the wrong perspective. It is like saying..."Because I got punched in the face, the brutal gut shot I took doesn't matter". Like I said in the last post, every time you do an injection, scar tissue forms. EVERY time. Larger needles= more damage= more scar tissue. More injections also equal more scar tissue. The are 2 seperate things, each of which are independent from the other. So, you can either take one step to reduce scar tissue and inject less often (use longer esters)...or you can take two steps (ise thinner needles) and reduce scar tissue even more.

Now, as far as rotating injections sites, this does not reduce scar tissue build-up, it simply reduces the amount of scar tissue which accumulates within a given area. Again, the principle is the same. You can rotate injection sites...but you will stilll accumlate the same amount of scar tissue regardless, so again, why not also REDUCE the amount of scar tissue being accumulated by using thinner needles?

 

[Mike Arnold]

I am going to order some 1" 25g pins and try them on quad and delt injections. I might switch to 23 1.5" for glutes. My prior experience was all UGL oils. Now that I am on paddock test maybe it will flow easier through the pins. I know the TRT clinic I am going to use compounds their products in very thin oil I forget what they said it was, but its the thinnest oil and most healthy. They have said in the past 25g are fine for their oils. So I'm not knocking 25g. I just think injection volume and frequency is a much bigger factor than gauge size. I've been rotating 4 sites now with 22g needles for a straight year and I don't have any scar tissue that I can speak of. So that is why I have the opinion that I do. Mostly basing my opinion on my own experience and lack of scar tissue.

See bold above: Wrong. Every time you inject, you accumulate scar tissue. You just aren't able to feel it yet because you started injecting relatively recently. Most people rotate injection sites, yet scar tissue still becomes an issue if you keep injecting long enough. The bottom line is that smaller pins reduce the rate of scar tissue accumilation...period.

 

[heckler7]

pushing a pin thru scar tissue hurts like a bitch, thats when you start to care about it

 

[TrojanMan60563]

I've never heard of a BB'er ending their career because of scar tissue....no matter what pin size those guys are using the hell out of their bodies and I never hear any pro BB'er talk to complain about it. Even the ones that are open about their use.

 

[ErikGearhead]

Varying sized pins will not change the rate of absorption. Assuming you are using the appropriate length of pin for your body fat % and the site you are using.
1.5" glutes, 1" everywhere else has served me well.
I get away with 5/8" for traps and forearms