Does higher doses of Test always mean greater growth?

[Lang]

I'm running a Test, Methadrol cycle and I'm wondering of higher volumes of test per week (e.g., 500mg versus 900mg) always equate to more/greater muscle growth given the other variables are in check. Is there a "sweet spot" that differs for everyone? If there is a sweet spot what is yours and what is your weight to get a perspective.

 

[nby]

The following is part of a thread by heavyiron over at MD, the full abstact can be found here..Testosterone dose-response relationships in healthy young men -- Bhasin et al. 281 (6): E1172 -- AJP - Endocrinology and Metabolism

The following text outlines the benefits and risks of Testosterone administration based on a clinical human trial of 61 healthy men in 2001. The purpose of the trial was to determine the dose dependency of testosterone’s effects on fat-free mass and muscle performance. In this trial 61 men, 18-35years old were randomized into 5 groups receiving weekly injections of 25, 50, 125, 300, 600 mg of Testosterone enanthate for 20 weeks. They had previous weight-lifting experience and normal T levels. Their nutritional intake was standardized and they did not undertake any strength training during the trial. The only two groups that reported significant muscle building benefits were the 300 and 600 mg groups so any dose lower than 300mg will not be considered in this essay. 12 men participated in the 300 mg group and 13 men in the 600 mg group.
600mg of Testosterone a week for 20 weeks resulted in the following benefits. Increased fat free mass, muscle strength, muscle power, muscle volume, hemoglobin and igf-1.
The same 600 mg administration resulted in 2 side effects. HDL cholesterol was negatively correlated and 2 men developed acne.
The normal range for total T in men is 241-827 ng/dl according to Labcorp and 260-1000 ng/dl according to Quest Laboratories. The normal range for igf-1 is 81-225 according to Labcorp. Total T and igf-1 levels were taken after 16 weeks and resulted in the following;

Total Testosterone
300 mg group-1,345 ng/dl a 691 ng increase from baseline
600 mg group-2,370 ng/dl a 1,737 ng increase from baseline

igf-1
300 mg group-388 ng/dl a 74 ng increase from baseline
600 mg group-304 ng/dl a 77 ng increase from baseline

Body composition was measured after 20 weeks.

Fat Free Mass by underwater weighing
300 mg group-5.2kg (11.4lbs) increase
600 mg group-7.9kg (17.38lbs) increase
Fat Mass by underwater weighing
300 mg group-.5kg (1.1lbs) decrease
600 mg group-1.1kg (2.42lbs) decrease
Thigh Muscle Volume
300 mg group-84 cubic centimeter increase
600 mg group-126 cubic centimeter increase
Quadriceps Muscle Volume
300 mg group-43 cubic centimeter increase
600 mg group-68 cubic centimeter increase
Leg Press Strength
300 mg group-72.2kg (158.8lbs) increase
600 mg group-76.5kg (168.3lbs) increase
Leg Power
300 mg group-38.6 watt increase
600 mg group-48.1 watt increase
Hemoglobin
300 mg group-6.1 gram per liter increase
600 mg group-14.2 gram per liter increase
Plasma HDL Cholesterol
300 mg group-5.7 mg/dl decrease
600 mg group-8.4 mg/dl decrease
Acne
300 mg group-7 of the 12 men developed acne
600 mg group-2 of the 13 men developed acne

There were no significant changes in PSA or liver enzymes at any dose up to 600mg. However, long-term effects of androgen administration on the prostate, cardiovascular risk, and behavior are unknown. The study demonstrated that there is a dose dependant relationship with testosterone administration. In other words the more testosterone administered the greater the muscle building effects and potential for side effects.

Given the results of the study and based on years of personal experience I believe the first time user can safely use between 300-600 mg of testosterone enanthate or cypionate per week for 8-12 weeks. Because it is desirable to have even blood androgen levels I advise at least 2 equal injections per week. Testosterone cypionate peaks within 1-2 days after injection and falls off to almost baseline by day 10. Therefore waiting 7 days between injections of cypionate would cause wide fluctuations in blood androgen levels.


If a first time user wanted to use 600 mg of cypionate or enanthate per week he would inject 300 mg on Tuesday and another 300 mg on Saturday each week for 10 weeks. When injecting long heavy esters like cypionate with this frequency I tend to have less acne then 1 injection per week.
There are a number of esters which provide varying release times. Acetate or propionate esters extend the release time of testosterone a couple of days. In contrast, a deconate ester prolongs the release of testosterone about 3 weeks. Testosterone enanthate and cypionate are almost identical esters. The use of an ester allows for a less frequent injection schedule than using a water based testosterone like suspension which has no ester at all and is rapidly in and out of your system after injection. The published release times are not exact and are many times based on a single injection not many multiple injections which can delay the release of the hormone. Other factors affect release times of esters such as scar tissue and the muscle group injected. Only a blood test can confirm when the active hormone has cleared your system.
Esters not only effect release times but also the potency of the Testosterone as esters make up part of the steroid weight. This must be taken into account when calculating dosages. The longer the release time the less free hormone. For example propionate is about 15% more potent mg. for mg. then enanthate so 500mg of propionate would equal about 575 mg. of enanthate.

Read this.

 

[fsoe]

I have never been one for running huge amounts of gear, now i will run 4-5 compounds at once but as far as running really high doses I have done it once and It made me really strong but as far as size i saw no difference .....

Currently on 525 test / 350 tren a / 350 mast p /---- per week and ------ 2 SDMZ per day / ---- 3iu hgh per day and this is about as high as I go ....

Highest i ever went was 1250 test / 450 npp per week and--------- 50mg dbol a day !!!!

I say save your body the stress and keep it moderate ....

 

[Standard Donkey]

gotta keep eating more and more to put on more size.


more test = more size (generally)
more test = more sides (generally)

 

[MovinWeight]

more tren = more homicides

 

[theboneman]

YES TEST IS DOSE DEPENDENT, BUT KEEP IN MIND YOUR SIDE EFFECTS GO UP ALSO AS YOUR DOSE GOES UP. IM A BLENDER, I MIX DRUGS AND GET GREAT RESULTS, BUT HAVE READ YOUR BODY CANT ASSIMULATE OVER 600MGS AT A TIME, I DONT KNOW THE TRUTH TO THAT BUT ILL TELL YA, I ALWAYS STAY AT 600MGS OF TEST WITH GREAT RESULTS. TRY BLENDING, YOUR GEAR LAST SO MUCH LONGER CAUSE THERES ALOT OF MILLIGRAMS, IM WAITING TO START THIS, 100 MGS eq, 100 MGS DECA, 100 MGS OF CYP, AFTER 4 TO SIX WEEKS I GO UP, NOW HERES THE PLUS, YOU GOT 300MG GEAR, YOU CAN SHOOT 1 CC OF EACH AND BE AT 900MGS, ADD THAT DBOL AND WHALAA, YOU CAN GET 10 WEEKS OUT OF EACH BOTTLE. SEE YA ..

OH YEA AT THE END OF THAT YA MIX CHANGES TO CUTTING DRUGS AND ITS AWESOME....

 

[MovinWeight]

terrible idea

 

[AmM]

gotta keep eating more and more to put on more size.

Exactly. You can take all the gear in the world but if you don't eat big you will not put on mass.

I know these young kids at the gym that think it's all about the gear. I tell them to spend a day cooking up food to pack with them when they go to work and they look at me like I have two heads.

I tell them to eat some more when they wake up at night to pee and they look at me like I have three heads.

 

[theboneman]

its actually a good idea when you been using gear for 20 yrs so ill stick with what works, as for the diet, i wont comment on it seeing we wernt talking about eating, as for your gains eating, lets compare your gains naturally to gear, oh yea there is no comparison, there aint one natural body builder competing in the juice pro;s he would be laughed off the stage, i dont care what he eats, so many guys give the credit to everything but what actually got em big, get off the sauce for 5 years and tell me bout your gains.

what i hate about the sauce is , the guys with no fucking clue to the dedication it really takes and sacrafice for a natural bodybuilder, and pro, and their ego gets bigger than the arms, back in the day we called em PUNK ON THE JUICE,HAHA, dont get me wrong, your point is valid, diet is the key to be successful. im with ya man.

 

[Lang]

gotta keep eating more and more to put on more size.


more test = more size (generally)
more test = more sides (generally)

Ok, but when I eat like a monster, say past 3000 cal's I start to see myself getting fatter by the day, or is this the deal? I eat like a bastard, then cut it up and getting fat is just part of the deal?

 

[heavyiron]

More is better.

1,200mg weekly is my sweet spot. I weigh 250lbs.

 

[Anabolic5150]

More is better.

1,200mg weekly is my sweet spot. I weigh 250lbs.

My hero!!!

 

[Goldenera]

Ok, but when I eat like a monster, say past 3000 cal's I start to see myself getting fatter by the day, or is this the deal? I eat like a bastard, then cut it up and getting fat is just part of the deal?

Yes to a degree. By that I mean u can bulk, or u can put on size. Not really both at the same time.

I say u that fat gain from caloric intake as a guide. Add 500 cals a day and back it down to where u can still add weight by not turn into a fat ass lol.
Unless u never cut up. Some guys are totally fine at being over 15% bf and don't shred down for summer

 

[sofargone561]

up the gear and up the food !!!!

 

[sofargone561]

More is better.

1,200mg weekly is my sweet spot. I weigh 250lbs.

<3 currently about to start off around 650mg's a week the upp to just about 1gram halway through, other compounds as well cant wait for this one

 

[Digitalash]

If you're putting on too much fat, you're going too far over maintenance. Depending on your training/diet/genetics you will need to dial in how many calories you can go over without alot of it being fat. Or you can take more hormones... igf-1 lr3 is fairly cheap with no sides that I know of and has awesome nutrient partitioning effects.

 

[sofargone561]

thats what dietitions are for

 

[MuscleGauge1]

YES TEST IS DOSE DEPENDENT, BUT KEEP IN MIND YOUR SIDE EFFECTS GO UP ALSO AS YOUR DOSE GOES UP. IM A BLENDER, I MIX DRUGS AND GET GREAT RESULTS, BUT HAVE READ YOUR BODY CANT ASSIMULATE OVER 600MGS AT A TIME, I DONT KNOW THE TRUTH TO THAT BUT ILL TELL YA, I ALWAYS STAY AT 600MGS OF TEST WITH GREAT RESULTS. TRY BLENDING, YOUR GEAR LAST SO MUCH LONGER CAUSE THERES ALOT OF MILLIGRAMS, IM WAITING TO START THIS, 100 MGS eq, 100 MGS DECA, 100 MGS OF CYP, AFTER 4 TO SIX WEEKS I GO UP, NOW HERES THE PLUS, YOU GOT 300MG GEAR, YOU CAN SHOOT 1 CC OF EACH AND BE AT 900MGS, ADD THAT DBOL AND WHALAA, YOU CAN GET 10 WEEKS OUT OF EACH BOTTLE. SEE YA ..

OH YEA AT THE END OF THAT YA MIX CHANGES TO CUTTING DRUGS AND ITS AWESOME....

This...And be careful. You will be a real headcase if you take too much too quickly. You should want your gains to be slow and steady...anything else is dangerous. Try to enjoy the process more.

 

["TheFuture"]

I would have to agree the more the better.. most of the time.
I would also say that you need to be dedicated when taking any amount of AAS. Some people think, ill up the dose and add in some other compounds and get huge.
I usually run about a 1500mg (give or take) blast but I also eat about 5000+ cals a day to get good gains. The more I take the more I can eat. even on a cruise I'm eating 5 whole clean meals a day. During a cycle I still eat very clean, but i listen to my body and ill know what i have to eat that day. All my meals, and supps are planned before i start a blast again.
What I'm trying to get at is... for me IMO, its all about diet, then gear. With a good diet and calorie intake and a basic cycle you can gain a lot. The bigger i got the bigger the dose got until I found a point that worked. I say 1500 is a good blast for me but honestly, this could change anytime.
It's takes time to learn your body, and your response to food and gear.
Ok enough blabbering..lol.
Just dont be afraid to test the waters..

 

[theboneman]

the future knows !!!!!

 

[PappyMason]

More tren= better results as well?

 

[Digitalash]

More tren= better results as well?

Yeah with any aas the more you take the more effect it has, but if you read the study above, doubling the dose from 300mg to 600mg did not double strength or mass gains. I'd imagine if you made a line graph showing both the dosage of AAS on one line and the rate of gains on another line, the rate of growth line would increase sharply at first and then rapidly slow down. At some point the two lines would cross meaning this is the dose where adding additional hormones would no longer produce any additional response.

Many people have attested to the fact that running say 75mg of tren ace ED shows more results than 50mg, but the sides are also worse. With tren you will probably find the side effects intolerable before reaching the point where more becomes useless.

I've never seen a study on this, but I think it's possible that adding compounds that work via different mechanisms may negate this effect to some degree. Much of a steroid's effect on growth is mediated directly by androgen receptors, but there are many compounds that are very strong yet don't seem to bind with the androgen receptor very well. Also some compounds are very good at increasing protein synthesis, others at nutrient uptake, nitrogen retention etc. So I think by combining things that work via different pathways may be more beneficial than simply adding more of the same, it will also make it possible to run higher overall doses without experiencing such harsh sides from a certain compound that you have issues with. Someone who is particularly sensitive to tren sides may still be able to take advantage of it's capabilities by running it at a low dose stacked with other compounds to compensate.

 

[Bieberhole69]

its actually a good idea when you been using gear for 20 yrs so ill stick with what works, as for the diet, i wont comment on it seeing we wernt talking about eating, as for your gains eating, lets compare your gains naturally to gear, oh yea there is no comparison, there aint one natural body builder competing in the juice pro;s he would be laughed off the stage, i dont care what he eats, so many guys give the credit to everything but what actually got em big, get off the sauce for 5 years and tell me bout your gains.

what i hate about the sauce is , the guys with no fucking clue to the dedication it really takes and sacrafice for a natural bodybuilder, and pro, and their ego gets bigger than the arms, back in the day we called em PUNK ON THE JUICE,HAHA, dont get me wrong, your point is valid, diet is the key to be successful. im with ya man.

WTF are you trying to say here? Reading this gave me a headache.

 

[SloppyJ]

This is for the Capt'n.

Moar Gearz.

 

[juiceball44]

WTF are you trying to say here? Reading this gave me a headache.

Lol I was thinking same thing dude is just rambling about nothing