Dorian Yates on squats and body type

[davegmb]

Saw this article and thought it was interesting. Dorian Yates it seems believes squats arent always the answer depending on your body type!?


DORIAN YATES As a winner of six Mr. Olympia titles (1992-1997), Dorian Yates set a new standard for overall size and density in the mid-'90s. From the top of his vastus lateralis to the bottom of his soleus, his legs were thick from every angle. Yates believed in high-intensity training, exhausting his muscles by putting maximum effort into a few focused sets.
SQUAT OR NOT?
"Some people's joints articulate in a manner that allows them to benefit greatly from squats; others may not benefit at all. If you're not too tall and have short limbs, it may be the best exercise for you, but if you're tall with long legs, it might be both ineffective and dangerous.I was stubbornly faithful to squats for years until I finally realized they were not well-suited for my body structure. After I switched tomore muscle-intensive movements, my gains in leg size were astounding."--Dorian Yates

DORIAN YATES' LEG ROUTINEEXERCISE SETS REPS
Leg extensions 2* 10-12 1 10-12
Leg presses 2* 10-12 1 10-12
Hack squats 1* 10-12 1 10-12
Lying leg curls 1* 10-12 1 10-12
Stiff-leg deadlifts 1 8-10
Standing leg curls 1 8-10
Standing calf raises 1* 10-12 1 10-12
Seated calf raises 1 10-12

* Warm-up sets

Link to actual article below

Wonder wheels: the 40 all-time greatest legs | Flex | Find Articles at BNET

 

[LAM]

everybody's body is slightly different in regards to tendon/ligament length and size, length/size of muscle belly, attachment points, etc. so the bio-mechanics of everyone is slightly different. this is why certain people are more efficient at certain lifts, the mechanics of the exercise is more suitable to the mechanics of their body.

personally I am a very efficient squatter but the movement doesn't really feel natural to me even after squatting for decades now. i am much more at home using various leg press machines, etc. but that also depends on the type as they all vary slightly in design. It must have been the mid 90's when I started to use some of Dorian's leg press routines, love them!

 

[davegmb]

Yeah i just thought i was interesting that a well respected bodybuilder like Yates didnt feel squats were needed in his routine, considering alot of people make it sound like if you dont squat you dont really work out.
I personally do squats but its not my strongest exercise and im much better at deadlifts. I always put this down to my long limbs holding me back in the squat like what Yates says, but when ive mentioned this "theory" before people have dismissed it, so was nice to see a respected person who see's it the way i do. That said im not going to be getting rid of squats from my routine any time soon.

 

[gtbmed]

Well, Dorian was known for using HIT. I think it's dangerous to try and perform HIT squats - it's asking for an injury.

But I believe that if you find squatting uncomfortable, you should experiment with different stances and movement patterns. There are a lot of things you can change regarding width of the feet, angle of the toes, angle of the torso, and placement of the bar on the back. Also, you're probably inflexible.

You started your life squatting and at some point you decided to stand up. I don't believe that people "aren't built to squat". It's just that as most people mature, their sedentary lifestyles mess up their squat flexibility and movement patterns.

 

[LAM]

You started your life squatting and at some point you decided to stand up. I don't believe that people "aren't built to squat". It's just that as most people mature, their sedentary lifestyles mess up their squat flexibility and movement patterns.

you are honestly going to say that bio-mechanics has no relevancy on the ability to perform a specific movement effectively? so when a person that is naturally flat footed runs and over-pronates and can not achieve a natural stride is just a lazy runner? interesting....

 

[davegmb]

Well, Dorian was known for using HIT. I think it's dangerous to try and perform HIT squats - it's asking for an injury.

But I believe that if you find squatting uncomfortable, you should experiment with different stances and movement patterns. There are a lot of things you can change regarding width of the feet, angle of the toes, angle of the torso, and placement of the bar on the back. Also, you're probably inflexible.

You started your life squatting and at some point you decided to stand up. I don't believe that people "aren't built to squat". It's just that as most people mature, their sedentary lifestyles mess up their squat flexibility and movement patterns.

Greg, flexibility is not the issue i get down nice and deep into my squats and i dont really have a problem with the movement, its just not one of my stronger lifts and i feel its more suited to someone with shorter limbs to generate more power in the movement bio mechanics wise.
However, im well aware there alot of tall people out there who can squat really well and i dont want to get into that debate again personally. My main interest in the article was the fact Yates clearly doesnt see squats as the be all and end all as the majority of lifters do.

 

[MDR]

I think there are good points on both sides of the discussion. I know that deadlifting came much more naturally to me than squatting, but after much experimenting and tinkering with technique, I was able to become a decent squatter over time. Bio-mechanics are very relevant, as is technique that is based on the individual's body-type. If I had to pick one lift as crucial, it would be the deadlift, with the squat a close second. I do agree that Dorian's preferred training method does not lend itself well to the squat.

 

[Flathead]

Dorian Yates is the man & there ain't no two ways about it. With that being said I'm calling horseshit on the whole tall guy can't squat as well as the short guy theory. I'm 6'3" tall, 6'7" wing span, & long legs & I don't feel like I've had to work any harder than a guy who's shorter, to achieve a solid Squat 1RM.


Flathead

 

[gtbmed]

you are honestly going to say that bio-mechanics has no relevancy on the ability to perform a specific movement effectively? so when a person that is naturally flat footed runs and over-pronates and can not achieve a natural stride is just a lazy runner? interesting....

That's not what I'm saying at all.

So many people want to blame their genetics for everything. They want to make excuses for why they can't do something because that something is hard. Squatting is hard and people don't like to put in hard work. It's that simple.

Tall people with long legs can squat. There's nothing prohibiting them from doing so. It's like saying people with long arms shouldn't bench because their biomechanics "prevent" them from performing the exercise effectively. But how many guys give up benching? Not many because benching is a glamour exercise.

There are ways to work around being tall and having long legs. Work on flexibility, try different stances, bar placements, etc.

A flat-footed runner who pronates doesn't give up running entirely - he finds the proper footwear to allow him to continue running and works as hard as he can to correct his stride.

Anyway, the original point of this thread was that Dorian Yates didn't do squats. Of course he didn't squat - he followed an HIT style training protocol. HIT and squats are never going to make a good marriage. But how many people truly follow an HIT program and do it correctly these days? Not many.

Squat. Whether you do front squats, back squats, high bar squats, low bar squats, zerchers, goblet squats, you're better off doing them than not doing them. If you can't do a back squat, figure out your weakness (mobility or strength deficiency), correct it, and do some other squat variation in the meantime.

 

[unclem]

i agree with flathead, iam 6'1 and never had a problem squatting. my best was 500 something, but now that iam hurting 225- 240 but its just overuse and i never did have a problem ifg u think 6'1 is short well then i guess i had a problem.

 

[cshea2]

i agree with flathead, iam 6'1 and never had a problem squatting. my best was 500 something, but now that iam hurting 225- 240 but its just overuse and i never did have a problem ifg u think 6'1 is short well then i guess i had a problem.

I agree, out of the big three I think squat is neutral to anyones body type/proportions. Guys with long arms may have an easier time locking out a deadlift, but also might have a harder time locking out in the bench press compared to the 5 4' guy benching a shit load of weight.

The squat however, is more neutral I've seen a number of guys 6 2' plus squat some heavy ass weight as well as shorter guys squatting heavy.

 

[unclem]

^^^^ good points brother. yeah i do agree with bench presses that a guy shorter has a easier time locking out. but ive seen some good heavy benching done by tall guys , but i think its up in the air with strength but the lockout is easier for shorter guys.

 

[LAM]

^^^^ good points brother. yeah i do agree with bench presses that a guy shorter has a easier time locking out. but ive seen some good heavy benching done by tall guys , but i think its up in the air with strength but the lockout is easier for shorter guys.

the load has to be moved a shorter distance, that's only logically...in terms of hypertrophy I can't tell you how many dozens of bodybuilders I have trained with or seen over the decades that never squat with 30-36" quads

 

[gtbmed]

I have no doubt that you can build big quads without doing squats.

You could probably build a big chest without doing bench press too, or big shoulders without ever doing overhead presses. I just think you're missing out if you don't do lifts like these.

 

[Phineas]

I don't buy the tall man theory on squats, deads, and bench. Yes they have a longer way to go, but there muscles are proportionately longer.

I'm 5'9, a bit a short. When I bench I don't have to go as far as the 6'3 guy, but at the same time he's naturally larger than me. How is there any difference?

The only size factor I can see in how well a lifter can perform on a certain movement is body proportions -- not size, but proportions. For instance, if you have arms relatively shorter than your legs deadlifts might be awkward for you, as you'll have to begin the movement with your back more parallel to the floor, putting more stress on your lower back and putting your centre of gravity further from the bar -- making the lift harder.

However, as gtbmed mentioned in the thread, there are almost always ways around these shortcomings, no pun intended. For instance, for the example I gave a simple solution would be a wider leg stance, such as sumo stance. This will put the torso in a more upright position for the initial pull and allow the lifter to keep a closer centre of gravity.

I have very tight achilies, and for the longest time this prevented me from squatting properly. I naturally found low-bar to be suitable, as it requires less flexibility, but even then I had problems. The issue wasn't hip mobility, but achilies, which is hard to get around. After a lot of toying around with various stances and even supportive gear (a wooden block, which caused more problems than it solved -- i.e. brief lower back injury) I settled on a slightly wider stance. I had to work for a while in improving my hip drive and mobility, which I achieved through sumo stance deads (I permanently switched to sumo stance recently...fits my proportions better), power cleans, and especially very strict overhead squats.

And now, I'm squatting better than I ever have. Weight that 2 months ago would floor me I'm banging out without rest in between reps.

 

[cshea2]

I don't buy the tall man theory on squats, deads, and bench. Yes they have a longer way to go, but there muscles are proportionately longer.

I'm 5'9, a bit a short. When I bench I don't have to go as far as the 6'3 guy, but at the same time he's naturally larger than me. How is there any difference?

The only size factor I can see in how well a lifter can perform on a certain movement is body proportions -- not size, but proportions. For instance, if you have arms relatively shorter than your legs deadlifts might be awkward for you, as you'll have to begin the movement with your back more parallel to the floor, putting more stress on your lower back and putting your centre of gravity further from the bar -- making the lift harder.

However, as gtbmed mentioned in the thread, there are almost always ways around these shortcomings, no pun intended. For instance, for the example I gave a simple solution would be a wider leg stance, such as sumo stance. This will put the torso in a more upright position for the initial pull and allow the lifter to keep a closer centre of gravity.

I have very tight achilies, and for the longest time this prevented me from squatting properly. I naturally found low-bar to be suitable, as it requires less flexibility, but even then I had problems. The issue wasn't hip mobility, but achilies, which is hard to get around. After a lot of toying around with various stances and even supportive gear (a wooden block, which caused more problems than it solved -- i.e. brief lower back injury) I settled on a slightly wider stance. I had to work for a while in improving my hip drive and mobility, which I achieved through sumo stance deads (I permanently switched to sumo stance recently...fits my proportions better), power cleans, and especially very strict overhead squats.

And now, I'm squatting better than I ever have. Weight that 2 months ago would floor me I'm banging out without rest in between reps.

That's true it's more about proportions than someone's height. Although, most people 6 2' plus have larger arms even for there body, and most guys 5 6' or so have shorter arms relative to their body. Look at these NBA guys theres obvious exceptions but generally they don't bench a lot of weight due to their lanky arms.

An exception would be apparently Wilt Chamberlain, 7 1' benched 465 pounds! bball players are all shredded to the bone too.

 

[cshea2]

the load has to be moved a shorter distance, that's only logically...in terms of hypertrophy I can't tell you how many dozens of bodybuilders I have trained with or seen over the decades that never squat with 30-36" quads

That's a good point plenty of monster bodybuilders don't squat, but do you know how long they were squatting for before they gave it up? I can't imagine when they were younger and building a strong base that they didn't squat and squat heavy as hell.

I'm thinking they squatted for years and then they started doing all that pre-exhaust, super setting madness with leg press and leg extentions to get them to that next level. could be wrong though.

 

[Deity]

I'm 6'2 and I was Benching 405 before I was even 20 and never had a problem with squats or deadlifts. That being said I also agree that it was hard way back then I remember getting used to deep squats, not necessarily because it was harder but I always had balancing issues when I'd go deep. I believe some people are just built differently than others, not just with height but body mechanics as said previously. That being said I believe that not every exercise has to be done exactly the same by everyone if it doesn't suit you, but maybe one reason is some people don't focus enough on the 2ndary muscles of the movements, I personally hit my 2ndary muscles just as hard and actualy more often than my larger muscle groups. After all a chain is only as strong as its weakest link.

 

[Gissurjon]

That's true it's more about proportions than someone's height. Although, most people 6 2' plus have larger arms even for there body, and most guys 5 6' or so have shorter arms relative to their body. Look at these NBA guys theres obvious exceptions but generally they don't bench a lot of weight due to their lanky arms. .

umm not really true about the NBA guys. they normally dont bench alot because bench press really isnt relevant to the game of basketball. You never really extend your arms like that while playing except maybe to pass the ball and you dont have to bench 400 pounds to throw a ball around. some strenght is necesarry but a big chest is just likely to get in the way while trying to be finess. centers will put more emphasis on bench since they generally spend more time gripping the ball then guards.

 

[troubador]

What about the type of levers the muscles and joints form that are involved in a bench? I know class 3 levers (like the bicep) have more of a disadvantage the further the load is from the fulcrum and force. I don't know about the mechanics of benching but could it be the case where the longer the arm the less leverage there is when benching?